I Learned to Speak Four Languages in a Few Years: Here’s How
lifehacker.com
lifehacker.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Re...
"Can understand a wide range of demanding, longer texts, and recognise implicit meaning. Can express him/herself fluently and spontaneously without much obvious searching for expressions. Can use language flexibly and effectively for social, academic and professional purposes. Can produce clear, well-structured, detailed text on complex subjects, showing controlled use of organisational patterns, connectors and cohesive devices."
I'm a long-time foreigner in a German-speaking country, learning German after already speaking two more languages apart from my mother tongue, not knowing German before I came here, so I know how many nuances a living language has. Had he say A2, or B1 if he's a language talent, I'd believe him, C1, I can't imagine. I can only guess he didn't actually try to pass some formal verification tests, or he didn't start from 0, there simply must be something he avoided to say. Or he simply lies to himself (and us) that it's actually C1 what he reached in five months.
C1 in 5 months without living in the country and speaking nothing but that language would put this person into "dangerously intelligent" territory. Super-human levels of language skills. With this "method", I have to wonder if he didn't just memorize phrases and words really, really well. Does he know the grammar and rules well enough to construct a compound thought on the fly and not sound overly foreign? Because you need to be able to do that for C1.
It's possible, at the very least. I did this in about 4-5 months at age 17 while living and studying in France (plus I was dreaming and thinking in the language by that point), and I only knew the basics before leaving. I consider myself smart, but not "dangerously intelligent". I have scored very high on foreign language aptitude tests, so I'm not totally representative. But it's certainly possible.
However, if you're a language maven, then I can see how you can obtain high fluency in a short amount of time (although even the mavens I came across had issue with giseigo/giongo production, figure that out). But don't assume the same technique a maven uses will apply to your everyday person. I've studied Japanese for going on 14 years now (8 of those years being intense study: masters program, study abroad) and the more that I learn the more that I realize that I don't know.
That said, I still doubt actual fluency is obtainable for non-mavens even in the romance languages. In my experience, all early learners have a naive view of their own ability, no matter what the target language is.
RTFA.
The US Foreign Service Institute makes estimates for language difficulties for native English speakers, and they seem to be spot on in terms of comparative difficulty—Russian seems to be taking twice as long as French did for me, and they estimate languages like Chinese to take twice as long as Russian.
I'd seriously doubt if anyone can claim they can learn Japanese to a high level of fluency in a matter of months or even a few years.
I don't agree with this. The way you have to 're-wire' your brain isn't too different from what you do while learning a programming language.
The difficult part of Japanese would be all that vocabulary and all those funny symbols and combinations of symbols.
As a Korean learner, vocabulary is a mountain that I make great progress in scaling, yet my progress seems insignificant compared to the size of the mountain.
And human languages are way more complicated and contrived than programming languages. I don't think you can make a reasonable argument to support that it's the same thing.
Well, that's hard too. But knowing all the words involved makes it a whole lot easier.
I haven't had much success with SRS for Korean vocab. There are so many words that are just too similiar to each other.
> human languages are way more complicated and contrived than programming languages. I don't think you can make a reasonable argument to support that it's the same thing.
I don't claim it's the same thing; I'm just making a comparison. Something like switching from SVO to SOV order isn't particularly difficult for the average programmer. Idiomatic expressions with irregular grammar are going to be problematic, granted.
Are you studying words in isolation or in context? The latter approach makes things much easier.
Second, you were 17. Third, you were fully immersed in the country of native speakers, probably spending all the time in language learning. Fourth, you say you were evaluated to be very talented for learning languages, do you know where you were at this curve (were you in the top 1% or so)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation
Fifth, which exactly diploma did you get then? If you were accepted to the French university, I believe you passed B2 and not C1.
Please do be more precise, I'd really like to know the truth.
1. The "basic". No, in the US, it's pretty rare to have four years of language training by age 17. I had two years of French before I left, but it was very basic French, on par with the way languages are taught in France. Not, for example, at the level at which languages are taught in Germany or Sweden. I knew the fundamentals of French grammar, but I could speak only very basic phrases when I first arrived in France. I could not carry on a basic conversation in French before my departure.
2. Yes, I was 17. I mentioned that.
3. Yes, I was immersed; I mentioned that as a mitigating factor.
4. Yes, I was in the top 1% of language learners according to aptitude tests. But my whole point in writing the post was to say that learning a language fluently in 4-5 months was possible (because I had done so), not that it had actually happened to the person in question. It may or may not have. But I tend to believe him.
5. What does a diploma have to do with this? In fact, I did not go to a French university, because I wanted to go to an American university.
Seeing the responses of some of you makes me understand a little better why some of the developers I've interviewed and worked with who have strong math/CS backgrounds are so surprised that I'm not able to immediately understand some complex algorithm. We all have different aptitudes, and just because something seems difficult for you, does not mean it is so for another person. I know some of you with strong math and CS training and aptitude are much quicker at understanding algorithms that I am (although I'm pretty quick at picking up PL syntax thanks to my natural language aptitude). I can totally accept that. Why is it so hard to believe that someone who has worked as a professional, ATA-certified translator would be quicker, even much quicker, at learning natural languages than others? If you think an average person could learn this material in a year, don't you think it's possible that a motivated individual with an aptitude for languages could do so in half that time? Isn't it possible that the blog author might be such a person?
(As a top 1% language learner you must have reached A2 only "by osmosis" in two years of French as a foreign language, before you came to France, then reaching B2 (again being top 1%) in five months there is fully realistic.)
Can you please specify your reference for that what you consider a "C1" level? Also please note that once we relax the starting conditions, allowing two years of preparations and avoiding a formal C1 exam, we can't really call it "C1 in five months."
I believe you that you sounded awesome, I believe you you've received a lot of praise for your ability, we just don't agree if that was a C1 as defined.
Otherwise, I'm sorry we've both lost this amount of time arguing past each other, when you've clearly made up your mind that no one can learn a language fluently in 5 months, to and even beyond the C1 level as described in the standards posted (the CEFR had not yet been adopted when I was in school).
PS -- And to be clear, I'm not unique, or particularly unusual in my abilities. I've known many other language learners who have learned a language fluently in under 6 months. In fact, most of my translator and interpreter colleagues probably can learn a language in about that amount of time.
PPS -- I'm offline to play with my kids. Good luck.
You never wrote clearly, have you passed any exam immediately after these five months in France? If so, how was it categorized then?
For that matter, I know non-native english speakers who don't have C1 fluency despite living in the US and UK for more than 20 years, and not for lack of trying. Learning languages is hard for almost everyone, and for a reasonable portion of the population, it's really hard.
I went on to learn two other languages to that level -- and became a professional translator and interpreter in the process -- but it took me longer because I was never again immersed in a language to the same extent (up to now, at least).
I can guarantee that: 1) you will sound nothing like a native speaker 2) I will laugh
See this long debate about whether a guy can achieve C1 fluency in 3 months:
http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36222-benny-l...
The proof is in the pudding - pass a C1 test after 5 months, starting from 0, and we'll all acknowledge it's been achieved.
In the SW part of the country, the surf region, there are loads of foreigners, many of whom have been here year-round for more than a decade; still, the accent is poor, the phrasing limited, and the non-native speaker element is absolutely evident.
You may immerse yourself in everything French, but unless you start early on in life it will be exceedingly difficult to attain native speaker type fluency. Language is not just speaking phrases, being able to read literature, etc., it's also being, language is being the being of another culture.
You need (say) 5000 words, but you'd need a lot more idioms to be near native.
Native is at least 20000-25000.
As long as you are continuing to learn then 5000 is a nice start, but you are not going to read novels and speak about broad topics with that vocabulary.
The average vocabulary of a University Graduate in the Arts is 10-12000 words. In the sciences it varies greatly, chemistry, biology and medicine being the most demanding at >15,000.
Someone with a vocabulary of 20-25000 words would be highly educated or very well read, or an specialist in a field.
If you have a Japanese vocabulary of 8000 words, you already have a bigger vocabulary than 74.13% of the population (if you understand what that percentage represents, you already have a larger vocabulary than the majority of people).
I would not consider myself anywhere near fluent; that is, compared to how I am able to express myself in my native language, Scala. Hah, how clever, I actually am a rank amateur in Scala, but its hot, maybe you'd like to hire me?
Anyway, the point is, I've met anglophones who have lived here full-time for several years and, wow, sometimes the accent is just painful, all the words are there, but the ability to articulate themselves in French just isn't happening.
Really, language acquisition has to occur at a young age, the earlier the better. Furthermore, building up a vocabulary is helpful, but you can't think phrases in your native native language and then speak them in another language without creating confusion on the part of your listener(s)
I'd really love to hear the C1s, I think I might have a good laugh -- Skype anyone?
This is a pretty controversial assertion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis
I took 8 years of French growing up (10-18) and I understood nothing, literally nothing when I visited Quebec for the first time (that's a joke, do you get it?)
Anyway, the point is, fluency cannot be gained without living in the culture where the language is spoken. Book learning, reciting phrases, etc. will not give you the auditory queues that conversations with native speakers will. When you mispronounce a word or phrase, a raised eyebrow speaks volumes. Books do not raise eyebrows.
The best way to learn languages is to live abroad, in various places, watch loads of TV (really the more the better) and mingle with the locals.
Finally the absolute best way to learn a language is through your significant other; if he/she speaks the language you are trying to learn, and has no interest in speaking your native tongue, wow, spaceship language learning class of the highest order ;-)
That's a common misconception, and I have personal experiences: actually spoken communication with different native speakers improves your capabilities much more than the communication with only one, given the same amount of time.
I'm also talking about living abroad, not hooking up with a foreigner in NYC and she plays teach the American to butcher X language
But you risk using the same terms all the time, getting used to each other's nonstandard pronunciation, and lastly, you may sound much more like a tomboy/sissy by only talking to the opposite gender. I really hope it's not too late for me to stop doing all of these :(
Personally, this looks much more effective than the textbook I'm currently using so I'll give it a try. We have no idea whether his timeframe claims are true or not (in which case, how can we criticize?) but any outcome of following his advice is going to be positive.
I trust that some language learning methods work better than others (we can see the disaster of language teaching in schools to understand that HOW you learn makes a difference) , this being said, time spent learning the language is often a critical factor to look at. 30 mins a day, for 5 months is not going to cut it, even with the methods described.
There's just so much the brain can absorb in a short time.
Daniel Tammet learned Icelandic in one week. I would be interested to see what backs your claim that the brain can only absorb so much in a short time.
I think both you and the GP are projecting YOUR limitations onto everyone else.
The brain can and does absorb a massive amount of information each and every day. Training the conscious mind to direct that natural ability of the brain is something that is orthogonal to the brains capabilities. Being an Opera Singer (dedicated and focused) probably helps with that task.
Your point? Daniel Tammet is an autistic savant. And some people have eidetic memory. There is little relevance unless we find a method to recreate these traits in "normal" people, there is by no means any evidence that every human has latent super powers.
As a normal person having nevertheless high language aptitude, I reached C1 or very close to C1 in about 6-7 months. I say close to C1 despite reaching C1 level in a test, because I don't think it's fair to claim you have every capability for C1 as described by CEFR just because you passed a 4-hour test, in certain ways you just cheat by learning for the test. Anyway, even that was with a very generous amount of immersion, about a minimum of 8 hours a day including long hours of grammar practice. Still, despite praises from native speakers, at that time I wouldn't assert that I was fluent in speech or writing. Now to claim you can be "fluent" in 5 months just by studying 30-60 minutes a day is a bit outrageous.
I can't tell you how much our brain can really "absorb" and "retain" in one day, but there are very real limits in language acquisition after a certain age. I won't say it's impossible, but to realize your claims, we definitely need a magic pill or surgical operation / cybernetics.
Daniel Tammet is not an ordinary person. You are projecting HIS extraordinary capabilities onto everyone else, and you can see that 99.999999 % of the population is NOT anything like Tammet. So your point does not stand.
He studied for a particular interview about his experience learning Icelandic. I don't know how well he spoke in that interview, or if he could cope in situations which weren't interviews about what he thinks of Iceland/Icelandic and his studying method.
-- I know i scored a 287/300 in TOEFL. Don't know of any equivalent in Tami l/Hindi, that i would compare to that format.
*-- I mean fluency in terms of forming sentences, by combining vocabulary learnt with/without context to form sentences that express and/or describe processes. Not spoken competency. That came long after that, only when i was forced to immerse myself(school rules around 16 for English and later at 25 when went to do a Master's for Hindi).
C1 requires around 20,000 words of vocabulary. That's more than 100 words per day to get there in 5 months.
I submit that's impossible, even if you do that all day.
On a more intuitive level, I'm C2 in English, and it took me 20 years to get there. I don't think C1 in 5 months is realistic.
Memorizing a foreign language word is not just translation, it's about understanding context and usage for that word.
When you tread outside the "trivial vocabulary kit" you lose bijection between languages and acquiring words becomes harder and harder.
Keep in mind I have nothing but my personal experience to back that up, which means formal studies on the topic are more than welcome to enrich the conversation.
Exactly. I didn't mean to suggest that you can actually "learn" those 100 words in a meaningful way. That treshold is also difficult to measure indeed, I also can't back that up besides anecdote without spending some time looking into research. Anyway, my point wasn't that at all. I was actually trying to state it's not realistic to assume a 100 word per day acquisition, because that would mean you would spend 4-5+ hours a day _just_ to know certain translations of those words, without any context or very little if any. I'm talking about something very mechanic that would gain you very little in real language acquisition terms for the effort you spend. Unrealistic scenario unless you're trying to win a bet.
Also, it's worth to note that this depends strongly on how you actually define new words, i.e. what kind of inflections etc. you consider to be distinct words. In languages where you can derive an average of 3-4 new words for every word you learn this can become almost trivial.
If you would ask even professors to rate her based on what they hear, they'd give her the highest notes. How people sound is a very important point in the feeling other native speakers have, because those who are not top few percent have problem with that and for them, there is a good correlation between different aspects of their language capabilities. So if some professor is evaluating her for a C1 grade based only on whet he hears in a simple conversation with her, she'd pass it easily. However, if she'd have to write for a C1 exam and the same professor would have to give her a note only based on what she'd write, it would be another story.
Now consider also this: the author of the article we discuss is an opera singer. It's obvious that his "ear" is different than the one of an average person. He hears the nuances better. He is also preselected for his abilities to control his vocal tract enough to be probably one of at least one or even more thousands!
In short, I can easily imagine that he can sound even much better than an average guy who reached C1. Still, if C1 includes a written exam, it's not the same. Take a look at the message exchange between one talented person and me -- I believe him he's better than the most, but still it appears that he didn't understand the point and the arguments to which he replied even as they were in his native language. That's the really hard part, especially as I'm not a native English speaker and certainly not in possession of language superpowers, we can still see how hard is passing the gap between "good" and "the comparable to a good educated native."
That being said, if we compare, let's say, a million people, one of them will be by definition better than 999999 other ones. If the author of the article is one of those, it explains a lot, but then that's the major information missing in his article and the rest of it gives a false hope to 999999 of a million readers.
So I still believe that the article omits some important detail regarding that C1 feat of him. Most probably there is some mix of "small" details missing, just like in the conversation seen here -- some years of a foreign language in school, some years of learning and singing the whole opera pieces in French and a big predisposition for learning languages.
The part that's a bit misleading is the 30 minutes a day he mentions. Those 30 minutes require a LOT of preparation. Also he's a musician, so has "the ear" for it.
It's a half hour of audio each day. The key is that you speak out loud. You can do it while cooking or driving, or any other activity that is routine and non-verbal.
They teach you to pronounce phrases very well, and you learn the basic structure of the language. Once you can say "I would like a glass of wine", you can easily learn to say "I would like X".
When I got to Italy, people thought I had been living there for a year.
There are only two things you MUST do:
1. Do a lesson every day. 2. Speak out loud, in a normal conversational tone. The program is teaching you to have conversations.
I love these courses so much that I'm compelled to gush about them whenever language learning is mentioned. They won't make you a native speaker, but you'll quickly reach a level where you can advance rapidly.
Seriously, just whisper and accept the stares. That's what I do. People lose interest in you after a while anyway.
The guy who's whispering to himself is fine. Weird, but at least not an asshole.
Second, yes, it totally does. The guy loudly talking into his phone is audible to everyone on the bus, thanks to the fact that he's speaking loudly. It's really obnoxious. e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0uTi2qkgf0
With that said, you could probably practice this stuff on the bus without being obnoxious by simply speaking more quietly. You'll still be more annoying than the quiet guy reading a book, but probably not unreasonably so.
It's a great conversation starter, too, which might land you a conversation partner if you're in a multicultural city.
They use spaced repetition and native accents. I hear what I should say in my mind when I want to say it instead of trying to think of words on paper I've learned. Of course, it has its limits (you don't learn to read or write), and only gets you the basics of a language, but it really helps you nail them in a way that makes you feel like you're naturally learning a language like a child does.
Another downside to Pimsleur I discovered more recently while working on Swedish. They're all about the same! The dialogues and stories got kind of boring since I'd heard them already in Cantonese.
Ideally, I'd like a resource like Pimsleur plus some kind of podcast (e.g. popupcantonese.com) so that I could build more vocabulary at least at a passive level and understand more of the speech I elicit from native speakers.
The same thing happened to me in South America. I studied Spanish in high school, but when I asked someone a question there, they started talking at 100mph and I had no idea what they were saying.
I find it's a lot easier to understand Spanish speakers who grew up stateside. They use a more limited vocabulary, and they're Spanglish accent is a lot easier to understand.
I don't see how that's a downside of Pimsleur...
I've had a similar experience to the grandparent while learning Mandarin (not through Pimsleur), where my pronunciation has far outstripped my progress in listening, grammar, and vocabulary. Hoping to remedy this through different exercises, talking with (sympathetic) native speakers, and catching up on my Chinese soaps. ;)
On (i): any method has to make some choices on what to teach first. I think good pronunciation and listening skills are much important than knowing spelling or explicit grammar rules at the beginning. While Pimsleur is not perfect, I believe it's a good method in that respect.
On (ii): it's possible that Joe got unlucky, or maybe people in that region are monolinguals and don't quite understand that language proficiency is far being binary. It's not a big deal anyway: just learn how to say "I don't understand", "sorry, I don't speak Chinese well" and "please speak slowly". At least the first 2 of those are stock Pimsleur phrases.
For what is worth, some of us foreigners in Japan experience a different phenomenon: Japanese people who can't quite believe that non-Japanese can speak their language.
Regarding your experience in Japan, I think that's a demonstration of why learning foreign languages (and traveling)is so significant: It creates new cultural ties and has the power to jolt people out of their preconceptions and prejudices (both for learners and native speakers). It opens minds on all sides.
Which meant I, like you, had the strange ability when visiting Swedish, of speaking much better Swedish than I could understand.
Another thing on that list is 3. Repeat lessons.
So I was very, very good at my canned sentences, but had no real language ability.
Michael Thomas courses, on the other hand, have been very helpful. Instead of just drilling how to ask for directions, you get taught how to form sentences.
Then again, it probably comes down to personal preferences.
- Watch their news media. For instance, if you are learning Arabic, then watch Arabic media. It might be tough at first, but just go at it. Be a baby. Babies bombard their minds with input and eventually patterns form.
- Pick a TV show you saw and watch the whole thing again using language-you-want-to-learn subtitles. This can be fun, and well things will be mentioned so often they will stick. This is extremely effective, and my English vocabulary improved dramatically this way. I prefer this to carrying cards and trying to memorize them. Its unnatural.
- Go to a country that speaks it.
Good Luck
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2toXE3c7was
Great arabic, easy to hear what he's saying and simple songs. Classic.
I don't consider myself to be a quick language learner (ie, with a 'gift' for it) but I do believe that being passionate goes a long, long way and that bombardment and immersion are key. It's not about the time it takes, it's about your drive to reach the right level for you. Being a language lover, I never just want to "get by", I'm looking for near-fluency or fluency. It took me a good decade and a lot of commitment to reach the levels I've reached in the languages mentioned.
Btw, the OP is right about getting the accent down. To me this is just as important as any other aspect of the language.
So I've climbed this mountain and found myself wondering what is next. Seems I'm going to take another stab at Italian since it's been several years since I first got into it. That's what's great about language learning, if you consider yourself a lifelong learner, you can 'bookmark' your learning process for later.
Another way is watching dubbed movies on (non-cable) TV. If you've already seen the movie, then you don't care if you miss 80% of the dialogue.
The #1 problem with accent is that in order to master a foreign accent you have to be 1. Young, 2. Gifted.
It's impossible for someone who's over 18 years old (arbitrary) to master a different accent (French from english speaking, Cantonese from French/English, etc.)
That's why 6-8 years old who learn a foreign language are so good at it, they have the brain set for learning accents.
You only kid yourself if you believe that you don't have an accent in xyz language and you started learning it past your 20s.
There's plenty of time to make a new life in 6 years only to be forced to throw it all away. We were given a choice between Australia, the US and Canada. We ended up in Quebec city where I've been for almost 14 years now (since September 98').
Even though the journey was hard for the 4 of us, harder for my parents than for me and my sister, I regret nothing. I'm fluent in 4 languages and functional in 2 others with a brain wired for learning to speak.
Upon arrival at 9 years old I was the best in French after only 1 year, in a school filled mostly with people raised on the language. Plus I was picking up English at an amazing rate thanks to the Simpsons playing 6x more often than in Germany. Add subtitles and the fact that I knew all the episodes anyways and you get an abnormal learning rate.
What I'm trying to say is, bullshit as to C1 fluency, I was under ideal conditions to get there (and C2) in a little less than a year with a brain that acts like a sponge at that age. His method may get him towards his objectives faster but I think he may overestimate his abilities.
After you learn a second language, others get much much easier and the learning curve is much shorter.
I'm learning Spanish right now, and for example, Portuguese and Italian can at times be very similar
Lost most of it by now, of course. I can call a guy an asshole, and I can buy him a beer, but the bit in the middle where I apologize - that, I can't do :P
As for the "thousands of characters" scare for Chinese, I've read estimates that for daily communication you can make do with less than a thousand characters.
You won't catch many words.
If you have a tutor, they might be able to gradually build you up, but you won't have the hours with them. Reading at your own pace is a better way to build your vocabulary and grammar.
You're right about the "thousands of characters" thing - a lot of Chinese writing is pretty simple (in terms of character use - simple characters are usually combined to form longer words, the first thousand goes a looong way), as long as you stay clear of classical Chinese literature (at which point, even some Chinese give up).
It's not that hard. After years of frustration at being essentially illiterate in Japanese while having a decent level of spoken fluency, I've finally buckled down and started learning the kanji using Remembering the Kanji in combination with Anki. It really is possible to learn 20 kanji a day if you dedicate about 45 minutes of time.
There's a similar book called Remembering the Hanzi (both Traditional and Simplified versions are available) that you can use to much the same effect. At 20 per day, you can learn the 5000 hanzi that are said to cover just about everything you might come across in day-to-day life in less than a year.
1. it consists os three different systems side by side with complex and sometimes arbitrary rules of switching between:
2. Japanese and Chinese are totally unrelated languages, so the Chinese characters were bolted on due to cultural reasons (similar to how Turkish was written with the Arabic alphabet previously). Chinese characters evolved naturally and are suited with Chinese, since many words were single syllable. They are ill-suited for writing languages unrelated to Chinese.
3. Finally, Japanese has a complicated honorifics system which is hard for foreigners to grasp.
The super complicated Japanese writing system is to be contrasted with the Korean system, which although it uses many Chinese characters (again die to cultural reasons) has a system that is ideally suited to its phonology. I think the difficulty of learning spoken Japanese and Korean would be on par; the writing system makes learning Japanese really hard.
Immerse yourself completely, and it'll almost be the same as listening in that foreign country.
I'm learning Ukrainian and Russian for 3,5 months. I understand Ukrainian just like that and understand Russian quite well; written and spoken. I speak ukrainian quite good and start to speak russian (because I started with ukrainian and didn't write russian first). It was 3,5months of nearly no effort maybe couple hours a week.
OK, I'm polish so slavic languages are nothing new to me, but many people learnt russian here with nearly no result. I think it's way of learning. I just started write and read ukrainian and russian bit later.
If I learnt familar language so fast with no effort why not to learn european language in 5 months of some effort? It's possible since european languages are not completely different and I know english and understand german now. Well, maybe it won't be C1, but I can believe there are people with better language skills than me.
I've actually made it my mission to make languages fun and easy to learn, and started a company called Native Tongue. If you are interested in learning a language check out our vocabulary mobile apps for Spanish and Mandarin. They're called Spanish Smash and Mandarin Madness.
Gabriel's put a lot of effort into creating his flashcards, but they'd be the same for everyone - so you could allow the community to generate the cards, and the part of the community for whom this is their native language could rate these cards, the best bubbling to preference.
The use of existing sites (Google Translate / Lang-8) to get/validate translations is good, but this could be baked into the same system as the flashcards, using that system's community, or having an API to connect that system with the external sites so that it's just one system from the user's perspective.
In terms of reading books / watching tv / etc, again a catalogue of links to e-books / youtube clips / etc., along with ratings of difficulty could be maintained by the community and presented through the app.
Build this on top of facebook / google plus / etc and tools such as hangouts are also available to help users from different countries / of different native languages talk to one another, taking it in turns of 30 min sessions in one another's languages.
I spent 1 year in New Zealand when I was 17, I learned the language the hard way, when I got back, I was fluent, not bilingual but fluent.
Now, 10 years later, I'm no where as good as I used to be, still I find people who tell me they are fluent in english and how they can express themselves nearly perfectly in english. If I have the luck to hear them speak once, I usually figure out right away how their english is (poor). On the other hand I have a friend that is perfectly bilingual from birth. He never claimed he was so and I knew about it after I knew him for a year...
This is a personal story, I agree, but it does show a trend. People who claims that "speak", "are fluent", etc. are usually to be taken with a grain of salt. There's no magic in this world, and language is hard.
There's no such thing as a free lunch
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-cAnFbEXY0&feature=relat...)
This is also pretty much what happens to me when I'm in the US. I think I'm talking real words, but people don't understand me.
It's the same for me when I'm in England, the locals just don't understand me.
"you know what I mean, right?", I say, and they respond with, "oh, royt, e means royt!" WTF is royt, can't these people articulate themselves properly? k-rist they invented the language and we had to improve it, god bless America, rush limpbag and everything that makes the homeland free of the brave.
"ave a pint yank, ave a pint"
1. Mandarin
Lots of people, but spoken in only two countries (China and Singapore) and essentially nowhere else.
2. Spanish
With only half the number of speakers of Mandarin, Spanish is the second most widely spoken language in the world. The people of over twenty countries on three continents prefer it.
3. English
Only third in speakers, but the most widely spoken language, number one in both art and commerce.
4. Hindi
Spoken in only two countries.
5. Arabic
The world's third most widely used language, but usually spoken in places where you just can't use it to pick up girls. (Unless you are a girl yourself)
Links: 1: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8916890/ns/world_news-mideast_n_...
Also, how is that list misleading? The title is, "List of languages by number of native speakers" and not, "List of languages by some specific importance"
2. The list is misleading if used, as suggested, to prioritize languages to learn. It seems accurate enough as far as sheer numbers go.
3. California should just be marked as an exception to every list of facts. (The only country where you can comfortably live you life speaking only Vietnamese, except California; the first twenty digits of pi, except in California; &c)
However as described, a mixture of techniques is needed. Writing, reading, talking, listening. Plus practice, practice, practice.
There are a few examples of people learning languages quickly... Like get fluent in 3 months. Once you understand the mechanics it is easier.
Also some languages are easier than others. Germanic languages 'should' be easier for English speakers.
Two other resources which are inline with his approach are the Assimil series, which is highly regarded by non-academic linguists (and some practical academics), and the LingQ words-in-context language learning website.
Can anyone provide their own success story for Rosetta or a competing alternative?
Anyway, I am at a point now that I am learning new words every day just by speaking.
I tried a copy a few years back and wasn't too impressed, then saw it again last year and they actually had working voice recognition that judged your pronunciation! They also have an iPad version out now which seems like a great fit.
The one big thing I've noticed is that they're a bit random on what they teach you. I remember the Arabic 1 program taking quite a few lessons before teaching 'bathroom', for example.
Rosetta Stone isn't supported by most linguists who study foreign language acquisition. It is also ridiculously overpriced and never explicitly teaches even basic grammar, something which FSI points out helps almost 100% of learners.
There is one positive item, one huge negative and one poor implementation point.
The positive is that I think the mechanism, or put another way the Rosetta Stone platform, is mostly good. The combination of visual and aural, with a relatively simple screen-is-one-concept approach, is good.
The negative for me was the actual content itself. I learned about ladders, and horses and crazy things that not once have I encountered here in Paris. It would have been helpful to learn food items, grocery store items, things folks (even tourists) would likely find useful.
I hesitate to mention this because it might not have been a Rosetta Stone objective, nor might it fit into their framework/platform. But, there were no verb tense lessons. Even just rote learning of "je voudrais ..." [I would like ...] would get you out of 80% of the conversational jams when trying to get a sandwich, or similar.
The poor implementation point is that I did not experience any good luck using their voice recognition engine. Perhaps it is because I really have horrible French pronunciation. However, isn't that the very situation Rosetta is trying to correct? I found no way to discover why it was upset with my pronunciation. It was just a very frustration experience.
But yes, after hearing all of the raving reviews in this thread, maybe I should give it a closer look.
It is "one way", but if you're able to dedicate time to it, the "they pronounce", "you pronounce" will probably work well. If you're halfway listening in the car, then it probably won't work.
There definitely are verb tense lessons if you get far enough! It doesn't teach you by rote, but that's the whole idea, I had lessons in French at school where we did rote learning and Rosetta Stone seems to be working a lot better (I feel more confident in my ability to actually speak and read) than my lessons in school ever did.
Plus, I hear your point about pragmatics, but I am also appreciative of the exercise of learning the language as part of expanding ones horizons. "Walk a mile in his shoes" kind of deal, which only gets lip service unless one has actually needed to switch mental, cultural and linguistic contexts.
I also honestly think that more Americans are not bilingual (or perhaps even interested in such a thing) because of the lack of opportunity to use that skill.
So yeah, that's how it is. I am sure to expect a counter stating why this is on-topic, or how this one topic is rare etc etc. Framing. Frame shit well, anything looks like gold.
----
The backstory? HN tells you to read http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html and http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html but not even the regulars do it. No one follows the rules, because the rules are the regulars and hive mind make the rules. They make this their land to stomp on all and armchair speak. And that's the truth. I can pull references all day.
If ever tried swearing here? Or giving a point against the masses? Downvoted right? Blame the hive mind and their inability to think on their own.
Now check a regular high rep HNer. He swears, he goes against the masses tells them "What are you all thinking? I am ashamed of these comments here"
A bazillion votes right? Same content, different framing.
Before this post ends up as a dead link from users with too much emotion overflowed from the workplace, remember if you want to do well in this community, here are some steps to follow. I assure you these work. I've experimented with them and have studied high rep members for months
* Circle jerk with reference, your point must inflate the previous point if not disagree with reference.
* Frame your shit. Follow the masters and their styling, they can make cooking a pasta HN worthy. It's amazing actually they really do have that bullshit making skill
* Bring in completely tangential points and references to counter anything written. The aim of the game is to disagree with just the right level of snark
* Never ask why HN is the way it is, this will only upset the hivemind, they don't like their emotions swayed.
* Attack YC companies, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, the community gets a kick out of this, they love seeing them fail and pointing how crappy they but never when those companies are busting their chops making something successful
* If you are really really really angry about something someone wrote, use a throwaway account this is key. HN regulars do this, all the time.
* Never interact with an HNer out of HN, not on twitter not on forums not on anywhere. The pseudonymity high they get off of being here makes them who they are. Don't take that away from them.
* Never comment on the original article (Cannot let the author know all the snark and non constructive criticism you leave them can you?)
* If you find a cool product on the internet that is not free, find a way to clone it in a weekend and put in on Github on rails and say "Tell HN: This is my piss poor clone done over the weekend give me karma now"
pg once/twice/three times?/I lost count/ tried to fix this community but it's not fixable when the top community members fail to see they are full of themselves and imparting that notion to newcomers that this is how the conversation and behaviour must be.
You may ask, why am I still here? Well you see, after you get past the circle jerk inflated ego mindset, there is actually treasure in here. And that sucks. Love/hate relationship I tell you.
Did I once say frame your shit?
If you haven't already, would you mind reading about HN's approach to comments?
Even in Sweden you will miss a lot of important informal discussions if you can't speak Swedish.