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Comment by ckdarby | Hacker News Reader

It isn't about hand-tuning. I'm still confused by your description of speed limit signs in Finland.

Is the speed limit emitted by LEDs? Why is it ever different between winter and summer? Etc.

If the sign is not white background,no LEDs, and black or red font I as a human would ignore the signage just like the car is probably trained for as that isn't reflective of North America standards.

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First of all, the standard for speed signs in most of the world is a round sign with a red border and a black number inside indicating the actual speed. US speed signs are extremely non-standard. Having the numbers be made out of LEDs in a country where winter means guaranteed ice and snow (so a much lower limit to be able to safely negotiate the same curves) would not be hard to recognize, as long as the standard is otherwise followed.

Secondly, road regulations are not dependent on what you personally know or are used to. A driver in Finland, even if they are coming from America, has the obligation of following all Finnish road markings. And if Tesla is selling FSD in Finland, it is obvious that they have the same obligation as any other road participant.

For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Sign...

> Why is it ever different between winter and summer?

Because road conditions are different.

We have these variable limit LED signs in the US, too. https://wjla.com/amp/news/local/virginia-electronic-speed-li...

> that isn't reflective of North America standards

But they make and sell them outside North America.

> Why is it ever different between winter and summer?

Harsh conditions + dark winter means that we have lower max limits in the winter. (i.e. 120km/h -> 100km/h, 100 -> 80)

The signs are pretty obvious to humans, though: https://moottori.fi/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/muuttuva-nope...

Same sign in Spain, when the road is congested the limit goes down.

I'd like to see some dynamic "no passing" zones on multi-lane highways, to tell people to stop trying to change lanes every fifty feet when neither lane is moving.

I remember when the CHP used to do rolling traffic breaks in Los Angeles. The officer would flip on the lights and use the PA to tell everyone to stay in their lane and not try to pass. They’d slowly accelerate to 20mph, and it worked beautifully for turning stop and go traffic into consistent flow. Unfortunately, few drivers think about what they’re doing enough to learn that lesson and it’s very labor intensive (and probably not what the officers want to do).

I wish we had those in Michigan. Too many people don't understand that speed limits shouldn't be considered minimums regardless of road conditions.

>Is the speed limit emitted by LEDs?

The speed limit signs are LEDs. In real life they are much brighter than they appear in photos ('cause LED). https://maps.app.goo.gl/29Mg7HaqFeAi2L639

>Why is it ever different between winter and summer?

Because doing 120kph on an icy road or in heavy rain is a recipe for disaster. Northern Europe isn't California. The temperature ranges from +30C to -30C during the year.

> I as a human would ignore the signage

Why?

> The speed limit signs are LEDs. In real life they are much brighter than they appear in photos ('cause LED). https://maps.app.goo.gl/29Mg7HaqFeAi2L639

Although those pictures probably illuminate (heh) the problem the Teslas are facing in determining the active speed limit.

> Why?

Because hamburgers, bald eagles, nonsensical date ordering, AR15s and imperial units demand it!

Do the signs flicker at 60 Hz, as shown in StreetView?

Aside: I'm not a fan of so many new cars with flickering taillights. I know most people can't see this effect, but many can.

I'm not sure what the frequency is but most likely 50Hz.

They shouldn't be selling FSD outside of NA if it doesn't work with anything but "North American standards". It's really that simple.

As the car is sold outside of North America (with a promise of FSD) , you don't think it's fair to expect it to recognise the speed limit signs in the country that the car is sold?

He is referring to variable speed limit signs, where they can change the speed limit of the road in bad weather (for example).

Why should cars sold in other territories only comply with North American signage?

These are the types of speed limits that you can see in norway, but also in other countries like Switzerland or seldomly France: https://www.sansi.com/case/vms-highlights-in-norway.html

Really easy to read, and very visible. But yeah, the AI is not trained for it. "Dumb" cars seem to recognize them though

You would ignore all the speed limit signs on a highway because they don’t have a white background? Come on. That doesn’t make any sense. Obviously the sign displaying a number enclosed in a circle is the speed limit (which you might also deduce by observing the speed everybody else is going). Next you’ll tell me that Tesla can’t possibly be expected to understand speed limits expressed in the exotic unit of km/h.

It’s fine if the car is trained for North American standards only. Why then is Tesla marketing and selling this feature in Europe at all? What did I get for 7,500 euros?

I’m sure they have fine print in the contract saying “we don’t guarantee this feature will ever do anything.” So I’m taking it as an expensive lesson.

You can likely make a small claim to recoup that cost under EU consumer protection laws. Given the ongoing promises as per the article, I doubt there would be a time limit on instantiating such a case.

EDIT: I think the limit is only 5000 for small claim, but you dont need to go the small claim route, its just super easy to do so.

Variable speed limit signage is not uncommon in the United States. It exists in areas of frequent and heavy fog, in construction zones, and in areas of regular stopped traffic.

> Why is it ever different between winter and summer?

Here in Oslo it's due to the local air pollution caused by winter tires. Studded tires especially but non-studded as well as they have soft rubber which sheds particulates more easily.

Due to physics, cold air can act as a lid, preventing the ground-level air from getting refreshed, causing a build-up of particulates.

Lower speed means less particulates from the asphalt and rubber.

I hope you ignore it. The fine you receive is based on your income. If you for example earn 5k EUR a month and go 20mph over the limit, you'll be fined 2640 EUR, payable on the spot. That you're not from Finland doesn't matter.

How would the Finnish police know how much I make a month if I'm not from Finland?

You have to tell them "under oath". In practice you can just lie though if your income isn't taxed in Finland.

I assume there is some minimum, else being unemployed would be beneficial here.

Here's some information about variable speed limits and signage from a North American country:

https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/provencountermeasures/variable-s...

> Why is it ever different between winter and summer? Etc.

It doesn't matter to the discussion. For whatever reason, if that is how the local laws work, it is what it is. If a car company wants to sell a car in that market, they need to comply or get out.

Variable speed limits are pretty standard on British motorways and they set a lower speed in dangerous conditions, heavy traffic, roadworks, etc.

I mean, remember that time when the Tesla engineers fixed Elon Musk's commute by literally repainting the lane lines so the vision system would see them [1]. Oh, or how about that time that they hand-tuned the FSD reveal demo, you know, the one that said "The driver is only there for legal reasons." and re-ran it over and over again until it succeeded without crashing (literally, it crashed once while they were making the demo video) as admitted under oath by the current head of Autopilot software who personally faked the demo even though it still, 7 years later, can not do that route consistently without error today [2].

[1] https://www.engineering.com/story/now-revealed-why-teslas-ha...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPgbDEVYOUQ

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