But I am simply an observer. I love watching smart people argue about stuff, so economics fascinates me. One thing is for sure, there is a ton of diverging opinions about the Euro and the sovereign debt crisis.
But I am simply an observer. I love watching smart people argue about stuff, so economics fascinates me. One thing is for sure, there is a ton of diverging opinions about the Euro and the sovereign debt crisis.
My only surprise is that so many people are unaware of it. The government's income is indexed to the real inflation (by being an essentially constant proportion of salaries/profit), and expenditures are indexed to a computation the government is able to redefine at will. Is it a surprise that it is, in fact, redefined often, and that it always makes the government look better?
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/12/james-hamilton-on-shad...
E.g., the modern definition of unemployment is indeed very different from the definition of 40 years ago, which would yield something like 20%-25% today (compared to 12% or so today). And yet, everyone assumes it is the same statistic. Same with inflation.
Personally, my 3 biggest expenses (rent, food, energy, in that order) have been going up at almost 10%/year over the last 3-4 years. I don't see a reason to doubt the shadowstats CPI metric.
You're welcome to trust BLS data. Just be aware that you can't trust them when they are published [ http://www.zerohedge.com/article/visualizing-propaganda-erro... ] and given that 90% of the values are revised to be worse within a month, their methodology cannot be considered statistically sound.
edit: added "almost" to 10%. Just checked, and rent was "only" 8%/year.
Implying that something is dishonest because it is different than it was in the past is a non sequitur.
"Personally, my 3 biggest expenses (rent, food, energy, in that order) have been going up at almost 10%/year over the last 3-4 years. I don't see a reason to doubt the shadowstats CPI metric."
What was that you were saying about sound statistics ;)
I do not think that, and I do not think that I implied that anywhere.
Rather, almost no one outside the BLS collects this information in the US on a scale that allows you to contest official numbers - so that BLS gets to claim whatever they want, and most economists in the US take that as gospel (and are wrong because they are misled, not because they are dishonest).
> Implying that something is dishonest because it is different than it was in the past is a non sequitur.
Appeal to authority ("obviously, the BLS/Fed had their legitimate reasons to revise the calculations") is a fallacy. And I did give the reasoning, so let me repeat amd expand that in case you missed:
Government gets income indexed to real inflation (by virtue of being a percentage of wages/profits/transactions) - so it is not affected by accuracy of inflation numbers.
Government expenditure (salaries, social security) is indexed to a computation controlled by the government. Furthermore, if this computation results in a number 0%-3%, everyone is happy, even if this is not supported by the underlying facts.
Said computation has been revised several times in the last 40 years, where new computation always and consistently results in a number lower than it would have been had you used earlier formulas.
Now, what do you find more plausible: Everyone in government (and extended government - the Fed) was trying their best to understand the economy, and it just happens that all revisions make government look better - or that these revisions were made because they make government look better, despite underlying facts?
Oh, and take into account that government and the fed is actually full of career politicians (bernanke campaigned to become fed chief).
At some point I factchecked government stats and actions for a living. My conclusion is that it is all fudged, nothing can be trusted, mistakes get made to make the government look better 90% of the time. Law enforcement (especially in case of the SEC) is very selectively applied. I can cite numerous examples, but I'm tired. Do your own research (karl deninger, zerohedge, michael shedlock are good starting points), or keep watching the CNN / CNBC government mouthpieces and believe all is well.
Is the BPP index faked as well? Is krugman dishonest or mislead, or maybe incompetent?
This can also be a difference of opinion, that we can settle with lot's time. But I still dislike your original implication that people asserting a different number for inflation are dishonest.
Did you notice that between 1-Jul-2010 and 31-dec-2010 the BPP was >=2.3 (closer to 3% most of the time) while the official CPI was at <1.3% (closer to 1% most of the time)?
The BPP was constructed to be similar to the CPI. If you constructed it to be close to the CPI of 30 years ago, it would have been higher.
> But I still dislike your original implication that people asserting a different number for inflation are dishonest.
It's not arbitrary people. The number of people who decide the CPI formula is ridiculously small - there might be 20 economists working on it, but ultimately it is a political decision by a handful of politically motivated people at the BLS to switch to a new computation, and the entire economic profession just accepts it as gospel.
And I stand by my assertion that these politically motivated decisions do not have any "scientific purity" (whatever that might mean) or the people's well being in mind -- it has specific goals in mind, which end up harmful (through no direct malice)
> so the BPP people are part of this conspiracy too?
You insist on not reading what you are replying to. I see no point in this discussion.
Example: You assert that the CPI is essentially fraudulent, and chosen for political gains and that their is a conspiracy afoot. I point out that the BPP shows numbers much closer to the CPI than to shadowstats. You reply that it's constructed to be similar to CPI. This implies something, right? It either implies that it's part of the conspiracy, or the people are incompetent, or something ... but I don't know what your point is. Also, your point doesn't mean that it's wrong.
Also, can you please show some evidence that the BPP was constructed to be similar to CPI. Right now we have 3 sets of numbers, two of them roughly agree. I'm inclined to believe that the BPP and CPI are more likely right than shadowstats given their agreement and the fact that they use different data sources.
Also, this http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=884...
I try not to imply anything, but I do assume that you have some background, formal or informal, in statistics and economics (if you don't, I'm surprised by how strong your opinions are given that you would be missing the tools to evaluate them).
For example:
> can you please show some evidence that the BPP was constructed to be similar to CPI
CPI and BPP are both a weighted average over a list of prices (several thousands or millions of them, with CPI averaging only a few carefully selected hundreds, and BPP supposedly averaging a few tens of thousands or millions).
Statistically, it is impossible for these two averages to be in such close correlation as they are, unless: a) essentially _all_ billion numbers sampled from have the same exponential evolution (that is, they all increase by 0.1%+/-0.01% per month, every single month) -- which is demonstrably false (oil prices have gone up and down several times last years, food prices have only gone up), or b) these averages were constructed to track each other (or a common underlying, but the CPI is defined to track some abstract underlying which is often revised and not perfectly documented or repeatable, so it has to be that BPP tracks CPI).
The probability that the BPP index was independently constructed and yet tracks the CPI so low that one would need evidence to believe it. That's how statistics works, and you're welcome to consult a stats person if you don't believe me.
What I'm saying is not that they are trying to do the same thing that CPI is doing. What I'm saying is that they did a regression of the prices they collect against the CPI officially published CPI, and as a result, they have a good approximation to the officially published CPI, without ever having to have an opinion of whether the official CPI is a good way to gauge customer expenditures.
> You assert that the CPI is essentially fraudulent
Yes, I assert that, as a measure of the growth of consumer expenditures, it is wrong (in the sense that it is inaccurate), and that it is fraudulent (in the sense that it is underestimating the price increases, and that it is intentional).
> their is a conspiracy afoot
These are your words, not mine. The thing is, your belief that there needs to be a large number of conspiring people in order to mislead others (intentionally or unintentionally) is not supported by evidence. Take medicine for example - for tens of years, long after the "evidence based medicine" came around, 99.9% of doctors (scientists! with diplomas!) believed stomach ulcers were caused by stress. Warren's claim that it is caused by a virus was considered craziness to the point that he had to infect and heal himself for others to take him seriously (later earning him a nobel prize in medicine). A recent survey showed that 40% of US doctors still believe the ulcers are caused by stress, despite never seeing any evidence for that and having evidence that it is caused by a virus.
Now, how do you explain that? Were all those doctors, 99% of practitioners in the US and elsewhere, dishonest? No. Just misled. And I can assure you it didn't take more than 5 people a century or two ago to establish that "ulcers come from stress" for that to be accepted. Do you see the analogy? [And if you find that interesting, you're welcome to ask doctors, and then look for evidence, that salt intake increases your blood pressure, or that cholesterol intake increases your serum cholesterol, or that serum cholesterol is bad for you for that matter. You'd be amazed at what doctors believe without any evidence, and often evidence to the contrary. And they are not dishonest, they are just misled]
> This implies something, right? It either implies that it's part of the conspiracy, or the people are incompetent, or something ... but I don't know what your point is. Also, your point doesn't mean that it's wrong.
No. It does not imply anything other than what I said: it was constructed to track the CPI (the officially published number called "CPI", not anything else). It is not wrong in that sense that it IS a good approximation to the CPI, derived from independent other sources. And it does not make anyone who works on it part of a conspiracy, or incompetent. But it does mean they accept the CPI as gospel (which I explicitly claimed). Is there any reason to believe the BPP tracks the average growth of consumer expenditures? (averaged over consumers, of course)?
> I'm inclined to believe that the BPP and CPI are more likely right than shadowstats given their agreement and the fact that they use different data sources.
As I mentioned, from a statistical point of view, these can only agree if they are constructed to agree, so they shouldn't be considered independent. If you want the economic reasoning for that:
The CPI switched in 1983 from including real estate home prices to using "owner equivalent rent". While one may argue whether this is justified, it definitely changes the meaning of CPI in many more ways than you'd expect (e.g. home prices were based on sales, OER is completely speculative). If you kept the old computation for just this component, this is how 2000-2010 would have looked: http://seekingalpha.com/article/45720-how-owner-s-equivalent... (which is much closer to shadowstats - and remember, this is just reverting one component back to 1983 computation, everything else the same); If you look at the BLS faq http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpiqa.htm#Question_2 , they quote NAR data to show the BLS are saints. If you actually follow the NAR data, you'd be laughing at using it as reference.
If the BPP used house prices, things would look very different. They cannot use speculative OER at all because only the BLS have that data. The fact that BPP agrees with CPI indicates that they try to track it, rather than figure out a true "basket".
Furthermore, even if you take CPI as gospel, the BPP has 1% difference over 3.7 years it exists. Assuming that this difference remains, in 50 years, your government adjustment benefits will buy 15% less than what they officially should be able to buy.
If you are really interested in challenging your world view, read Karl Deninger's blog for a month (the market ticker). Stuff you'll never see in the New York Times, CNN or CNBC.
Of course, there is a giant different between your analogy and what we are debating. You guys haven't proven beyond a doubt that inflation is significantly higher than the BPP or CPI. You are also accusing BPP of fudging their numbers, and admittedly they aren't open about their data sources, but here's the rub.
You could easily create your own BPP type index, make it open with the code in the public domain, and show some real numbers to prove that the BPP is fudged. Right?
side note: shadowstats is not transparent either. They haven't produced the data sources plus the code that generates their numbers.
I have not done that anywhere yet. On the contrary, I keep assuming you have them; perhaps I should stop, as you ignore what I write, and your only arguments are "but CPI=BPP, and even krugman says so", completely disregarding everything I write. Is my explanation that CPI can only equal BPP if they were constructed to be so wrong in any way?
> but you are the one who used the anecdote of your personal purchases as evidence.
No, I brought this up as anecdote. I did bring independent evidence (from a seekingalpha author) that agrees with shadowstats analysis - which you conveniently ignore.
> For every case like this, there are 100 where the professional consensus was right, and the lone dissenter was simply a quack.
This is a meaningless statement of appeal to authority. I'm not debating thousands of cases. I'm debating one case, with some support, which you conveniently ignore.
> You guys haven't proven beyond a doub
Who are "you guys?"
> You are also accusing BPP of fudging their numbers, and admittedly they aren't open about their data sources, but here's the rub.
Sorry sir, you apparently lack both statistical skills and reading skills. I am not accusing BPP of anything of the sort. I would urge you to reread what I wrote, but I have done that already, and that is useless.
For the benefit of others who actually read (if anyone still is) - the BPP index cannot have been constructed other than to have a value similar to the CPI. They do not have to be fudging or part of a conspiracy to be wrong (a fact jshen conveniently ignores)
> You could easily create your own BPP type index, make it open with the code in the public domain, and show some real numbers to prove that the BPP is fudged. Right?
"Easily?" Are you aware that BPP is the only (semi-)independent source of this data, and when they were about to close down there was a lot of outrage at the lack of any alternative.
In fact, there are millions of dollars to be made in knowing the difference between the officially published CPI and the "analyst estimate consensus". If you think it's easy, do that and you can retire on the first time your CPI collection disagrees with estimate consensus. Similarly for NFP numbers, PPI and others.
"Easily?" - one of us is living in lala-land, and it isn't me.
> side note: shadowstats is not transparent either. They haven't produced the data sources plus the code that generates their numbers.
Neither does the BLS, by the way, only very vague descriptions, and parts of the data are based on interviews asking people to speculate "if you were to do this, how much do you think you could earn / how much would it cost".
There is NO WAY for anyone to independently verify significant components of the BLS' CPI number.
Here is their own explanation: "Data collection: our data are collected every day from online retailers using a software that scans the underlying code in public webpages and stores the relevant price information in a database. The resulting dataset contains daily prices on the full array of products sold by these retailers. Our data include information on product descriptions, package sizes, brands, special characteristics (e.g. “organic”), and whether the item is on sale or price control."
That isn't hard to do in my mind. Why do you believe it is so hard?
Let's be clear. You are claiming that inflation is significantly higher than the CPI or BPP. You can talk until your blue in the face about the "problems" with those two, but you have to also provide some alternative data/math which is transparent. shadowstats is not transparent. It seems rather easy to me to make a price index, make the data public, and make the code public. I'm happy to help out on the coding side if you're up for it.
> Why is it so hard to create an index of online prices, which is what BPP is.
Why is it so hard to create a searchable index of the internet, which is all Google Search Engine is?
An index of online prices is much much smaller, say "just" 1% of the effort, so doing it dependably would cost "only" $5M/year or so to produce and maintain if you paid market prices (BPP has cheap student labor, I would guess, that makes their cost much lower; also, they can get away with not being robust). It's not just about crawling retailers - you have to be able to pull the prices and canonicalize products properly, and account for site layout changes. I actually did that in a former startup of mine. Doing it reliably is damn hard; embarrassingly parallel -- you could do it quickly by just throwing more money at it, but a ridiculously large amount of detail is involved.
Yes, yegg has been able to pull DDG with much, much less, but the talented people at Cuil were unable to pull with much, much more. If you're as good as yegg at this, I bet this is more rewarding (both financially and otherwise) than your job now. I know I can't pull a robust price index for less than a few $M.
> That isn't hard to do in my mind. Why do you believe it is so hard?
Because I live in the real world, and not in your mind. I actually did it in 1999-2001 for a startup. Technology has made it easier since, but not much easier. We developed a web scraper back then that was on par with everything available today (and is still ahead of many modern web automators like selenium).
Sites like pricegrabber are worth tens of millions if not hundreds of millions (meaning, if you were a company wanting to do that, you would either build-your-own or buy one for such a sum - so it's a good estimate of the costs, to within an order of magnitude), and all they do is create an index of online prices. In 2000, MySimon was sold for $700m for being nothing more than a price index. It wasn't a good deal for the buyer, but $70m today is probably a steal for a good, up-to-date price index of the web.
> That isn't hard to do in my mind.
I'm done here. I don't know what your real world experience is like, but it apparently doesn't help understand the involved statistics, economics, business and operational complexities. You demand details but you ignore them when given. I guess it's really a nice place in your mind.
> but you have to also provide some alternative data/math which is transparent.
BLS data is not transparent, and more than 30% of the value is officially based on speculation (a fact you conveniently ignore ignore). Ben Bernanke says it's accurate so it must be so. In the same way Europe is contained (as he said in 2008, 2009 and 2010), the mortgage crisis is contained (as he said in 2008 up until 2011), there is no chance whatsoever the US will be downgraded (as himself and Tim Geithner have repeatedly said when asked, up until the point it happened), etc.
If you actually read the data in http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-19/cpi-conspiracy-theo... you'd note that (a) there actually are no broad checks involved despite the title, and (b) while the BLS is not the only one using said methodologies, they are not universally accepted (not more than 40% of comparable countries use them) as it is claimed. Hedonics adjustments are more recent than the "recent" review of 1989 -- a review which was conducted with the implied target of finding that the BLS overstates consumer price inflation (by virtue of being commissioned by a congress quest to cut budget -- and what do you know, that's exactly what they found out!).
> It seems rather easy to me to make a price index, make the data public, and make the code public. I'm happy to help out on the coding side if you're up for it.
Since you live in your mind, and I live in the real world, it would be hard to bridge the gap and work as a team.
One of my close friends worked at pricegrabber for years, and the statement "all they do is create an index of online prices" is completely false.
Your continual use of ad hominem speaks volumes, and is your attempt to hide a lack of hard numbers.
Questioning your reading skills you ignore given hard numbers that you've requested is perfectly reasonable. Questioning your math or economics skills when you insist that BPP and CPI are independent when you admit to not knowning how they are derived is perfectly reasonable. You might want to check what ad hominem actually means (beyond the latin translation), you might be enlightened. Alternatively, you can just ignore anything that contradicts your world view, as you have done before.
Further, there is no free market, supply and demand never works like it "should", and the emperor has no clothes.
Markets are all artificial and manipulated by those who have the most to gain. Very relevant: US wireless ISPs ("telcos".) Their product is bandwidth since everything is digital now, yet we still have "minutes", "SMS", "mms", and "3G"/"4g" (and the inherent ambiguity in those terms deserves another article entirely...)
Make no mistake, you are being conned, you are being lied to, you are being manipulated...every day, for the profit of the ultra-rich. People die and generations are enslaved so a few thousand sick bastards can be kings in the "free world".
It has nothing to do with "immaturity", and all to do with your theory of understanding the world. A lot of theories of political economy --and they cannot just be dismissed a priori-- say that rich people are rich because of taking advantage of other people, societal imbalances, and, on top of this, that most "primary amassment" of capital in a society involves actual crimes.
So, it's only "immature" in some specific theories of economy/society, not all of them. That it happens to be considered "god given fact" in the society you might live in, is no proof that it is right. Contrarian theories are also quite common elsewhere.
Doesn't inspire confidence, and shouldn't.
they cannot just be dismissed a priori
Correct. They can (and should) be dismissed by observing that they contradict reality.
That it happens to be considered "god given fact" in the society you might live in, is no proof that it is right.
Don't know why you assume I'm just parroting something I've heard elsewhere. And it's not considered a "god-given fact" in the society I live in, anyway.
Contrarian theories are also quite common elsewhere.
Again, the standard of truth is not how many people hold a view, but whether ot not it is correct.
The guy was alleging that there exists a small cabal of uber-rich who control the world. That's pretty clearly not the case.
Having qualified university expertise on something should inspire SOME confidence, all else being equal.
But I wrote that for another reason: to show that one doesn't have to be an "idiot" to argue that, as the parent implied.
>Correct. They can (and should) be dismissed by observing that they contradict reality.
They should be dismissed IF they are found to contradict reality. And that's not as clear cut as the existence of gravity or the water becoming ice at 0 oC.
>The guy was alleging that there exists a small cabal of uber-rich who control the world. That's pretty clearly not the case.
Well, it depends on your definition of "small" and of "control". If I remember correctly, a small number of people do have a disproportionate amount of the total wealth, in the US and globally. A power-law distribution basically, right? And that wealth surely asserts lots of control. Surely SOPA and PIPA, for example, weren't proposed/passed with the insistence and for the benefit of Joe Sixpack or Joe Hacker.
Thank you. I've been evolving my own thinking along these lines for the past few years. Very happy to find someone who's been working along similar lines.
I'm resonating especially with the Wikipeidia article's decription that "it was never possible to separate economics from politics." That's been a key observation of mine for quite a while. Along with the observation that libertarianism is the fundamental inability to accept that money is power.
Basically, by changing the way you look at the numbers, the story changes from "The middle class has disappeared over the last 30 years" to "The middle class has done great and become wealthy over the last 30 years"
Actually, the problem is that people infer terms to mean things that they don't mean, oftentimes because the terminology is (regrettably) overloaded, even when the technical meaning is very precise and limited. Understandably, people interpret these terms literally, which sometimes leads to conclusions that seem paradoxical or impractical[1].
Remember that economics is really just the study of choices: choices in the small (microeconomics) or choices in the large (macroeconomics). Choices may involve money, but money is not inherent in economics - it just so happens that there are many advantages to a monetary system, which is why most economies develop some form of currency, and which is also why many (but not all!) economists deal with money. Even though it uses similar terminology, macroeconomics is fundamentally different[2] from microeconomics at its core. One is the study of individual decisions on a small scale, and the other is the study of the non-random patterns of many independent decisions.
GDP is not the perfect measure of what it's meant to gauge (macroeconomic economic 'health', which is itself a problematic term). GDP systematically overestimates the health of oil-backed economies with huge wealth disparities, for example. That said, there's no metric that's much better for the general case - all have similar systematic flaws in some way.
Furthermore, GDP has the advantage that it's completely unambiguously defined. That doesn't mean it can be measured perfectly, but having an unambiguous definition is a key step. When you start talking about these contrived indices (the 'happiness' index, the 'corruption' index, etc.), you get the problem that there's little underlying justification for the way that the model is constructed, so even if the end results are useful for a particular domain-specific application, they don't generalize well. GDP, on the other hand, can be derived quite easily from first principles, so it generalizes very nicely. Furthermore, GDP happens to correlate very well with most things that we would classify as 'good' (quality of life, corruption, happiness, etc.), so it's a nice proxy for these intangible 'goods' (no pun intended), which are more difficult to measure precisely.
So back to your question: maybe the measurements themselves are rigged - that just gets at the question of who is actually doing the analysis. But the construction of the model is no more 'rigged' than any other model. You just have to be careful to know that, like all models, its application is still very limited, even if it's one that we happen to use quite frequently.
As George Box says, 'All models are wrong, but some models are useful'. GDP is 'wrong', but it also happens to be by far the most useful way of describing the patterns choices on a large scale.
[1] This is by no means specific to economics: it happens in statistics as well, and (to a lesser extent) in computer science.
[2] That is to say, they aren't mutually exclusive, but they are based on completely separate assumptions, so principles from the small do not necessarily carry over into the large scale.
My comment was about the discussion around economics, not economics itself. Of course mathematical models are more or less useful and all of that, but if the same English term is used in multiple arguments where it has a slightly different meaning each time? One columnist uses GDP as a stand-in for "size of the economy". Another uses it for something more akin to cash flows. That's not a problem with models, that's a problem with common usage of terms.
Secondly, and related, is the use of the term "useful" There's a lot of wiggle room in "useful". You could drive a truck through it. :) Useful to whom? In what context?
There's a larger and deeper discussion about the Wittgenstein-ian problems with networks of terms -- I believe it may be more accurate to say that GDP is a structured observation, not a metric. It's a subtle difference, but I believe it has a huge impact on the study of economics in general. But hey, like I said, I'm just an observer.
The problem here is that you are building a conceptual model of economics before you measure anything. It's backwards. If I buy a candy bar, am I trading an hour of my wages for food? I'm using money, but how did I get the money? Am I trading an equal amount of gold that represents the perceived valued I provided the rest of the economy? What is the real definition of the thing taking place here? I'd wager that there is no universal definition that applies to all economic transactions. It's something more like cellular automata with multiple dimensions, not a causality chain built of little blocks.
You want to measure something, and you're immediately knee-deep into abstract terms and aggregate numbers. So you come up with an abstract model for measuring aggregation before you even begin to measure anything. It's never going to work. You're never going to be able to construct a reproducible model with high fidelity like that.
So if you want to talk GDP, you can say you observed this amount of cash moving around. I'm okay with that. But if you say the economy grew or some such, it doesn't work. You are presupposing the thing you are trying to describe. Each transaction involving that measurement had it's own value and definition. You're taking an aggregate of a fudge of a bunch of smoke. At the end you get a number, sure, and you can take it and plug it in to various models and get something kinda/sorta useful. It's heuristics for mathematicians, not science (as we understand it)
If I'm actually on to something here and am not just being a crackpot, the implications could be that economics as a science can probably be only understood in a causal way by really complex computer models very carefully and rigorously constructed.
Hmm, try this. Money is water. Ok that is pretty opaque :-) An economy is a system, and like any system it produces a variety of outputs, the outputs are then consumed. If you have a commute, I really recommend the audio course on Economics by Dr. Tim Taylor of Standford [1].
Economics is a system build not by measurement but by observation. Not all economies have the same rules that run them, different governments put different variations in the ability for the system to adapt. You may find, as I did, that conceptual 'money' is simply an exchange mechanism for work done in the system, and it need not be coins or gold, the fabulous example from the lectures is 'large rocks' as money.[2]
From your comments it sounds like you are thinking of money in terms of something of 'value' or as a counter, which it is in the micro sense but it is a non-entity in the macro sense where you are trying to compute how much work a system (or economy) can get done in any given time.
"But if you say the economy grew or some such, it doesn't work."
Ah but it does, just as one can measure the efficiency of a textile mill in terms of joules, even though the people working there rarely think about how many joules are in the food they just ate.
The original article touches on, but doesn't really express, the 'real' problem Europe is having which is that giving up sovereignty over the currency you use means that you cannot lie to yourself or others about how efficient or inefficient your economy is.
Lets look at it this way, let's say you live next to guy who has a nice 3 bedroom single family home, a couple of kids in private school, he and his wife drive cars that are less than 3 years old, they vacation in various trendy spots, and go out to dinner at nice places a couple of times a week. You have every reason to believe they are successful upper middle class folks living the good life.
You on the other hand haven't been able to afford to replace a car except maybe every 5 or 6 years, you're kids go to public school, and its a big treat for you to go out with the wife. When you vacation you go camping rather than to Disney World.
Now lets say for some reason you enter into this weird agreement where everyone in your neighborhood turns over their finances to the Homeowners Organization, you and your neighbor both have your income and credit card bills go through them and if you want to get a loan you go to them first and they go to banks on your behalf. Now when this happens you discover that your neighbor earns less than you do.
Now to resolve the dichotomy between your lifestyle and theirs you dig into the financials a bit, and discover your neighbor is maxing out their credit cards, saving nothing for their kids college funds, much less for a rainy day, they lease their cars and have numerous complaints about late or missed payments, and they are currently trying to negotiate a tax payment plan with the IRS. BLAM! Because everyone shares financial information they can't 'lie' about their situation any more than you can.
So lets take this back to Europe. When a nation prints their own money, runs their own banks, and reports their own numbers. They can be like your neighbor and paint a very rosy picture about themselves even when it isn't true. When they can't print their own money so their output production is measured by a common value, they also can't lie about their situation. That becomes a 'crisis' because they really are insanely poorly managed.
Often times these folks deceive even themselves about the problems. It's a human weakness. And fundamentally governments have no money. Its always amazing when people talk about "the Government is paying for ..." when they should say "the Government is going to take an additional $x from citizens to give to pay for ..." and when you look at it that way, you have to understand that 'tax payers' are a finite resource. And in places like Greece where 'not paying taxes' appears to be a national pastime (I'm sure it isn't but the Economist paints it that way) that resource is further diminished.
So dialing all of that back to the notion of GDP. The simplest way to explain GDP to someone who has a limited knowledge of economics, is to pretend its like a persons salary. They spend their time working, playing, sleeping, living and they are paid some salary. The sum total of things they can do is nominally limited by that salary, and if they have more salary they can do more, less and they can't do quite so much. Through credit they can trade some future salary for stuff today, but they make a bet that they will have a bigger salary later so it won't be as painful to spend that money then as it is now. If people paid themselves their own salary in their own dollars they could decide to pay themselves what ever they wanted. So I could pay myself a million chuck dollars a year, and try to buy things with other people who pay themselves their own salaries. When I want to buy a loaf of bread from you I have to decide how many Chuck Dollars I'm willing to pay, you have decide what its worth in Dan Dollars or your currency. If you sell me bread for four Chuck Dollars and then find out one Chuck Dollar is only really worth about 10 Dan Cents then you will stop selling me bread so there is some incentive to keep it close to rational. Sometimes we will fail and I'll be stuck paying a five hundred Chuck Dollars for bread which seems excessive so I'll give my self a raise to 10 million Chuck Dollars a year. Now the bread is reasonably priced (for me) at 500 Chuck Dollars until you figure it out and start charging 2,500 Chuck Dollars for a loaf.
None of those games and problems are possible when we share a common currency. But we lose the ability to 'give our self a raise' as well.
Some of Europe's economies have lived, like the fictional neighbor, way beyond their actual means and covered up that fact with loose fiscal policy. Going with a common, centrally managed currency, has exposed those games and brought reality crashing down. What is sad is that this 'step' (going to the Euro) was a looooooooong time in coming and the various nations knew it was coming, and if they had been honest could have started ramping back then, but they did not. Reality hurts. It hurts a lot. And when you have been lying to your citizens about things for a long time, and now you have to tell them the truth, well that gets politicians kicked right to the curb. But the new guys and gals coming in, can't change reality. They can't go backwards to the 'good old days' of lying about things. They need to face facts, roll up their sleeves. downsize their outlays and upsize their tax rates to a point where everyone is back on board and then start the hard work of becoming better managed countries. It sucks, it sucks big time, but that it sucks unfortunately does nothing to fix it. Austerity is a 'program' like 'amputation' is a treatment for gangrene. Antibiotics and better hygiene early on might have saved your limb, but once you've got gangrene the choices become much more limited. Once folks get past the anger of losing the limb, hopefully they can process the changes they have to make to prevent it from happening again. Between now and then, pretty much non stop whining and lamenting.
[1] http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.asp... (note don't let the price get you down they have sales all the time for like 80% off, and you can sometimes check them out from your public library)
I think we're fine here. I understand and agree with everything you've said. My comment was about the larger problem of creating the same kind of mathematical model for economics that we have for physics. We certainly have a lot of general models that work great and do all sorts of useful things. These things have their limits, though. But none of that has to do with Spain or the Euro. I was just referring to the foundations of economics itself, not this particular situation.
Looking forward to the course!
By the way, for any other readers who are diving down this far in the comments, there was also a great series of cassette tapes (I believe they're on CD now?) about economics and philosophy that I listened to back in the 80s from Knowledge Products. Great intro-level material. The Austrian economics and overview of Marx were especially good.
EDIT: Tip for TTC courses: never buy them at full price. They periodically have tremendous sales, and they're sufficiently expensive that you could easily save a hundred or two by waiting.
By GDP, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein are the worst countries in the world - with national debt ratios of $10M+ per person.
It even effects large economies, one of the (many) reason for the UK not joining the Euro was that the size of London's financial industry meant that it's debt/GDP figures would never meet the requirements even if the government never borrowed a penny.
Probably disastrous for both sides.
I suspect that David Cameron would be delighted to be free of the Scots but can't say so, meanwhile I suspect the Scottish Nationalists are probably horrified at the idea of actually getting independence but obviously can't say this either.
NB I'm a mostly pro-Union Scot - the only area that would make me vote for independence is if it meant closing the Trident submarine bases on the Clyde, which I can't see being an option that we are allowed to vote for.
ps. note British tongue firmly in cheek ;-)