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Comment by s0l1dsnak3123 | Hacker News Reader

Maybe - just maybe - Tesla should just give in instead of destroying their brand in the Nordics, which is what they are doing.

The workers are in charge, and they are also the ones buying Teslas (Yes Americans, in Sweden/Denmark/Norway Teslas are affordable enough for normal people who are in unions because they are paid correctly).

Maybe it's a good idea not to destroy your entire market while also destroying the means to facilitate the market.

Maybe Tesla is the problem here.

Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up to the societal norms of Sweden when it comes to worker's rights.

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They will have to give in or close shop. Simply two options available. Musk is pretty irrational when it comes to backing down so I suspect the latter. I was just about to buy a new Tesla when this kicked off and don’t fancy the risk of having a car I can’t service, so shopped around and discovered other EVs can be just as good with better build quality nowadays! So that’s a nice outcome for me.

The Finnish dock workers just announced that they are also joining the strike. Tesla would lose the whole Nordic market for something that surely is peanuts in the company scale. One could assume that an agreement would make financial sense.

What does it mean for Finnish dock workers to join? Are they refusing to load and unload Tesla shipments or are they striking generally?

They are refusing to load and unload Teslas and Tesla components to Sweden. So doesn't actually affect the Finnish market now.

Article in Finnish: https://www.hs.fi/talous/art-2000010043398.html

> Musk is pretty irrational when it comes to backing down

What from the outside looks "irrational", from the inside may look like "not compromising on principles".

Money is not the main variable that Musk is trying to maximize at this point.

> not compromising on principles

Yes, I'm not talking about money here. Irrational means making bad decisions. The bad decision here is to continue playing with a bad hand against someone who isn't going to fold. Sweden is not going to fold so either Musk folds now to avoid more embarrassment & costs, or keeps going and folds in the future. It'd be more rational to just pull out of Sweden than fight a losing battle, as you said money isn't that much of a factor here.

> "not compromising on principles"

which almost always is immature behavior, whereas adults think solution-oriented, which sometimes is called "Realpolitik" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik).

Doesn't get better in this particular case where musk is opposing to officially agree to common worker protection rules, wages, ... he already follows. Just another case of "dumb behavior".

Most things are iterated games so "not compromising on principles" can be a really good strategy if you can afford it.

I should add that that is true both for Tesla (and Elon personally) and for the Swedish unions (and the other Nordic unions).

> not compromising on principles

Not compromising on free speech worked well... Until he started banning journalists from Twitter.

It worked well for his own free speech.

Which journalists has he banned from Twitter/X ?

Just look up the events surrounding ElonJet.

Doesn't answer my question.

I would actually like to know if there have been any. I'm quite open to criticising things that he has actually done, and have made criticisms of him plenty of times. But I'm not aware of any journalists that he's kicked off twitter/X. The closest to such a scenario that I'm aware of is him (so far) not allowing Alex Jones back on, but he didn't actually kick him off.

It's not that hard to Google.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/15/23512004/elon-musk-start...

> Twitter has suspended the accounts of several prominent reporters who cover Elon Musk, including Ryan Mac of The New York Times, CNN’s Donie O’Sullivan, The Washington Post’s Drew Harwell, The Intercept’s Micah Lee, and Mashable’s Matt Binder, Aaron Rupar, and Tony Webster.

Thanks for that link. I wasn't aware that he suspended journalists at that time. However, I do note that they were only suspended and not banned. And this is consistent with what he has said on a number of occasions, that people might get 'timeouts' (in this case for doxing) but he's against permanent bans. Just checked two of the accounts (Ryan Mac, @RMac18 and Aaron Rupar, @atrupar) named in the article and they are active today.

I would like to know if there are any journalists he has permanently banned. As used to happen quite often on twitter, pre-Musk acquisition.

>I do note that they were only suspended and not banned.

This distinction is meaningless until someone is un-suspended.

Certainly if you are suspended you should be told the time period the suspension will last for, yes.

Don't make assumptions.

Here's one that has been permanently banned: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/04/elon-musk-twitter-st...

Ok, this particular case is interesting and certainly looks concerning.

Checked his handle [1] and yeah, it's still "suspended" over 6 months later. And while it only says "suspended" there, according to this thread [2], the message he originally got was that he had been "permanently suspended", which does imply a ban. And is also somewhat disingenuous because a suspension should imply temporality.

Appreciate you providing the link. Perhaps I've been living in a bit of a bubble because I hadn't heard of this.

[1] https://twitter.com/dellcam

[2] https://twitter.com/stevanzetti/status/1648785112748662784

The principle that he should be able the run the company as a dictatorship and not have to negotiate with anyone.

It's a bit shocking, as Sweden is one of Tesla's most mature and highest-density markets in Europe.

Yes, but there are only 10M people there (and only 25M people in the nordic countries).

To put it in perspective, the total number of Teslas sold over the entire history of Tesla in all of the Nordic countries is less than half of how many Teslas were sold in the US in 2023 alone.

One factor that could be a thing in the next few years is the R&D on EVs, green mining, and rare mineral deposits found in Northern Sweden. Sweden now has the largest despot of materials used in EV batteries in Europe and is leading in green mining to be able to access those minerals while meeting climate targets. These materials are expensive and hard to transport - Tesla could use this as an opportunity to set up some R&D there and get access to the materials logistics to bring them to Germany, etc. Which I'm sure has crossed their minds. But if they fight the unions and storm off they're not going to be winning any bids for that extra stuff.

Countries like Sweden have form on using their natural resources to build vast state funds which are then used to improve conditions yet further, creating a virtuous cycle of opportunity and innovation in the process. Norway did this very successfully with oil money. There's no reason to think Sweden wouldn't go this way with their rare minerals.

While the rest of the world looks on in envy, wondering why it is seemingly so impossible to replicate elsewhere.

Tesla already is going to have to shake off Musk’s odious personal rebranding, I think they are in really tough shape branding-wise. Add in the poor build quality rumors… I dunno, I’m actually shocked that none of the more established brands have taken over the electrics market.

Tesla feels like the Apple of cars in the worst way. Perceived as a hip luxury item by many, when it's far from it, and much better quality options exist. Let's hope their reality distortion field doesn't last as long as Apples has.

That's not how people like Musk think. People are just tools for them, workers strike means the tool is malfunctioning and should be replaced or "fixed".

People are just tools for unions too.

Irrelevant, the workers get more pay if they have an union. The unions are no more corrupt than the business itself.

> workers get more pay if they have an union

No.

> unions are no more corrupt than the business itself

No way.

The new Volvo EVs are actually really nice.

I do not for a second believe ordinary workers can outright buy Teslas in Sweden or Denmark.

Loans are easy to get. Plenty of "regular workers" here drive around expensive cars.

And a family might not have more than a single car, so it might be two adults paying for a single car. We only had a single car in the family when I was growing up.

I'm not sure what's the definition of an "ordinary worker", but as an electrician in Denmark I could absolutely have a Tesla if I wanted to. Which I don't, I really like my Leaf.

So in the UK most sparkies (as we call them :D) probably could as well.

But what I think people in the US (and many in the UK) don't grasp, is that someone (plucking an example out of the air) who is a manager of a retail shop in a small town in Sweden could afford a car like a Tesla. Partly because of the strong democratic socialist economic historical context underpinning decades of economic and workplace policy, and partly because of the decades-long subsidy and support of EV sales and supporting infrastructure in these countries making them cheaper and more practical than in many other countries.

This couldn't be further from the truth in the USA, because work life there has been going in the opposite direction effectively since the cold war.

Ok but reality doesn’t care much for your feelings.

Depends on what you mean by ordinary workers. But a lot of people can. A Model 3 is not a status symbol at all. Same with Model Y. They're just.. People movers. What makes Teslas expensive is its repairability, and therefore insurance.

They can and they do. Keep in mind that EVs have been very much subsidized and it is much cheaper to drive an EV than a comparable gasoline car.

The median take-home pay per worker is higher in the US than in Sweden, and Teslas are more expensive in Sweden than the US.

You keep saying “maybe”.

Tesla is the problem. It’s a good idea to not destroy your market and the means to facilitate. More workers rights are needed by the rest of the world.

Own your opinions, maybe.

I have a strong suspicion that OP is using 'maybe' as a rhetorical device in this case, and is not actually hedging their statements.

Your suspicion is correct. Perhaps :D

> Maybe Tesla is the problem here.

No, this is an issue for other smaller companies too (with less media coverage)

> Maybe the rest of the world needs to catch up to the societal norms of Sweden when it comes to worker's rights.

I hope not. I kind of want a flying car ASAP. Not never.

Sorry everyone- forget about the union. This guy on HN wants a flying car, and we’ll never have that as long as unions exist.

> we’ll never have that as long as unions exist

This might still be true tho. We'll see.

Going by Peter Thiel’s quote, Twitter is impeding the creation of a flying car, meaning Musk is also currently at fault.

Hell yeah! Let's get those lazy workers on the lines working harder. Innovation and growth at all costs. Workers are cogs and if they're not behaving correctly they should be fixed or replaced. I, personally, am happy with a 21% illiteracy rate in America - workers don't need to be literate to make my flying cars faster.

Sweden might rank top for happiness and health but that's not going to make my bank numbers get higher for my annual two week holiday.

> Sweden might rank top for happiness and health but that's not going to make my bank numbers get higher for my annual two week holiday.

The US seems to expect service workers to pretend to be happy in the hopes of receiving enough money to get by. Whereas the Nordics seem to take the approach of "let's make sure your service worker is happy" first and foremost.

The Nordic model seems more stable and less stressful for all parties involved.

I've lived and worked in the UK, the Bay Area, and Stockholm. Sweden does not pay as well but the employee/union perks & lifestyle is night and day compared to the other two. I definitely miss Bay Area salaries but I'm getting more holiday, I get paid extra for going on holiday, I get a years paternity leave & IVF bonuses, I get free healthcare (and most employers offer free private healthcare), I get a company car for very cheap, rent/properties are cheap and actually pretty large, the cities are built around nature, poverty is low, crime is low, people are happy...

I prefer the Nordic model so far!

Edit: I forgot the best one - unemployment insurance. If I get laid off I get my salary covered at 80% for 6 - 12 months (depends on the policy). This is through the union. Such a nice relief with all the layoffs happening in tech nowadays.

Yet everything you use is made elsewhere.

Nordic model is such a great success.

Unlike the wildly successful US model, where everything is made elsewhere and the majority of the population is one major illness away from bankruptcy. Sorry junior, no tertiary education for you.

No worries, the work will just get done elsewhere

Sweden is consistently ranking very highly for innovation...

Ranking high? You don't need to rank high, you need to actually do stuff.

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