Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive – Connectors | Hacker News Reader

Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive – Connectors

frame.work

138 pointsjonah-archive82 comments

My biggest disapointment on the Framework 16 is that I imagined the bay to be hot-swappable, or at least cold-swappable, like you keep the GPU unit in the laptop while it's on your desk docked to your monitor, and when yo head out, you swap the GPU module for a battery module and off you go.

At least that's what I hoped for, but no, that's not how it works, you need some screwing and unscrewing to swap them out, it not something that can be quickly done before you leave the house. Sad. Maybe the next model.

That sounds like a better use-case for an eGPU.

The module on the framework basically is an e-gpu except directly on PCIE instead of thunderbolt. Why they couldn't make it quick swappable I don't know.

Hotswappable PCIE is really hard to do right, especially if you are using a non-standard connector. You have to guarantee that pins connect and disconnect in the right order or you risk damaging equipment.

And on top of that, while a connector might be perfectly safe with cold swap (i.e. power off), you can damage the connector if the circuit is completed and power starts flowing but you only have partial contact.

So it was probably preferable to just release a coldswap versions and try dabbling with a hotswap capable chassis in the future.

it seems like the right approach would be to have a switch that disconnects the wires while the GPU is being connected to ensure everything is connected physically before anything is connected electricly.

It's two 74 pin connectors that's way too many to physically switch. Also signal integrity through that many switches sounds like an absolute nightmare.

Connecting the ground first has been solved in many ways. Are there other significant issues here for pin order?

Speaking from experience, there is a big performance difference connecting your eGPU over PCIE and connecting over Thunderbolt. Usually people just take the performance hit with Thunderbolt because of convenience and they are usually using overpowered desktop GPUs but there are eGPU PCIE connectors for people who want the most performance.

Because this is already using a mobile chip with lower performance, Framework probably didn't want to tank performance any more by going with the lower bandwidth Thunderbolt option.

The performance hit is because Thunderbolt has at most PCIe x4 bandwidth, while internal GPUs are connected to PCIe x16 lanes. That's a massive loss of bandwidth.

But it also tells you a lot about why Framework didn't make x16 bus hot swappable, it's a significantly bigger engineering challenge.

Especially because the GPD G1, a new eGPU with an integrated GaN charger is using practically the same GPU as the Framework 16. The latter uses a 7700S while the GPD G1 is using a 7600M XT and as notebookcheck put it "The 7700S is the power efficient version of the RX 7600M XT with slightly reduced clock speeds (-100 MHz) and TDP (-20W max)" but the GPD G1 also has multiple VBios versions for different TDP targets.

I am using it to change from the ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 4 to a ThinkPad X1 Nano. The X1E4 is 2kg, I have a third party GaN + SiC charger which is just 330g. The X1 Nano Gen 2 is 970g, the GPD G1 is 920g so the two together is less than the old laptop alone, with a hopefully similar CPU performance and vastly higher GPU performance. And it's much easier to pack, the X1E4 has a hard time fitting in a personal item backpack. Only disadvantage is I can't really game from battery but oh well that was never a goal.

Similarly going with the Framework 13 could be an interesting solution.

I've had lots of hopes for Framework products too - smaller motherboards for possible tablets, a Khadas Mind-type connector like what you're describing, a nicer 13" display like the current 16" one, heck ideally even a Framework phone - modular and _modern_ (unlike Fairphone; also see: small android phone project). But I think given how young/new they are, it's fine for them to take a little longer as long as their "core" products are at least comparable/as good as competition (which I think they are excluding costs).

I get why not though tablets and phones are completely different mainboard than a laptop and completely different chipsets with their supporting setups and everything. Trying to have a laptop that works as a tablet or a tablet that works as a laptop is a land of tough compromises and that's not even getting into how tough it'd be to make a thin but repairable tablet.

I probably should've clarified, I am talking about x64/Intel/AMD tablets. I agree size/thickness isn't the easiest, but it's more of an engineering challenge than something impossible. I wouldn't mind an undervolted 7 or 10 Watt i5 tablet at all, and currently surface devices are the only "major" brand selling x64 tablets that I know of.

Another interesting thing regarding small/thin x64 motherboards is the existence of 3.5" ultra-small SBCs like those by Aaeon. If they didn't cost so much I'd love to DIY a tiny, thin tablet out of them. The "advantage" of a small motherboard is that you can put it in a tablet, or put it in a laptop with a better cooling system, potentially reducing the need for another new component.

The new Fairphone is pretty modern, no?

Unfortunately performance still seems on the lower side. See https://www.androidauthority.com/fairphone-5-benchmarks-3362... for example.

I know it's not necessary to have a blazing fast phone, but as someone using a 2020 iPhone, performance does degrade over time/battery voltage.

They are startup created in 2019. I think you have hilariously unrealistic expectation, making hardware is really hard.

I think you misunderstood my statement. I don’t expect them to do all (or any) of that right now or even in 5 years, I just feel that some of these are goals that tend more towards/continue the trend of the modularity that they’re bringing to the market.

Do pci-express even support hot swapping? You might be asking a bit too much.

It does, technically.

Technically, yes. Practically? For some devices.

PCIe hot swap is how thunderbolt works.

My biggest disappointment with Framework continues to be the fact I can get a similarly specced laptop from numerous other manufacturers for 40% or less of what the Framework 16" costs. Bestbuy has an ASUS laptop on sale right now for $1200 with damn near identical specs to the bottom tier Framework 16" with the GPU expansion board that Framework wants $2900 for.

I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned.

By all means buy the Asus.

Personally I'm done with the HP/Lenovo/Dell/Asus/Acer/<insert what I missed> offerings.

They make junk that breaks, is impossible to fix and they bundle more and more malware every year.

I'm happy to pay the small premium to a company that has different values. They need to cover their R&D and other costs that are higher per unit at their small scale. I'll be here to watch them grow and show the rest of the market how it's done.

Most of us would probably agree. A premium is fine, expected even. But does the premium have to be so premium?

You think they're trying to price themselves out of the market? The relentless consumer focus on price is part of the reason we have so much non-repairable rubbish these days.

It was simple yes / no question. And somewhat rhetorical.

Like it or not, price matters. Yes, there's added value. I'm simply asking a realistic case be made for the price of the added value.

Put another way, I don't want to make a long term-ish investment in an ecosystem only to have that system disappear before I reap the benefits. That is, is Framework in touch with the market or not?

For example, if Framework is upgradable *and* built to last, will one Framework machine equate to 2 - maybe even 3 - other brand machines? That closes the gap, yes? But if the brand can't communicate / sell that or similar benefits, the brand's mission will be over sooner rather than later.

In their three-year existence (during COVID, no less), they've shipped five different 13 inch laptop models: three Intel generations, a Chromebook edition of their latest Intel generation, and (most recently) an AMD variant. That's incredibly impressive by itself for such a new company, but on top of all that the parts from these systems are interchangeable and readily available at reasonable prices.

Someone with a first-gen Intel Framework can upgrade to the latest AMD model for as little as $449.00, or around $500 for a bundle with RAM and the wifi module that you'll likely also need. If you're willing to stay a release behind (not possible with their AMD variant yet), you can remain almost current for much less money, at least judging by their pricing on their previous-gen Intel motherboards.

I just ordered an AMD Framework 13 to replace my Thinkpad T480. My previous personal laptop was a Thinkpad T410, which lasted me for seven years. My T480 Thunderbolt controller died due to a firmware bug that I didn't update to fix in time. In addition to the loss of Thunderbolt, it's lead to some other issues (such as a ~30-second pause resuming from sleep) that make it annoying to use. Fixing it would require a motherboard replacement, which iFixit rates as "difficult".

[1] https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-ser...

My last two laptops have been highly repairable. Previous was a Clevo barebones (I forget the model, it was rebranded as Medion). Current is an MSI GE66. Both of them can be opened 60 seconds with a screwdriver.

Both are gaming laptops since I do 3d work. So they are not featherweights.

The Clevo is a workhorse that is still going strong as a media center like... 8 years later I think? It traveled the world with me for five of those years, across deserts, beaches, and jungles, and never complained.

I can also speak for the quality of MSI support. When I first got the laptop there was some weird problem with hibernating - I think it was a Windows/Nvidia driver bug in the end and it resolved itself after a week or two.

A few months ago the screen started to have issues. In both cases I was able to get in touch with someone at MSI support within a few hours via email, and the person carried out a real, human conversation with me (even made a few jokes).

In the case of the screen they took it in for repairs, and I think they replaced pretty much the entire laptop internals and screen panel. Note that I had opened it to upgrade RAM and SSD so the factory seals were gone, but they didn't say anything about that. It took about 12 days to repair because they shipped the parts from Taiwan to Vietnam. Not great but not the worst I've heard. Initially they said it would take six weeks but when I said I needed it for work they expedited the shipment (six weeks would have been totally unacceptable and the tone of my message would be very different so, ah, well done to them there I guess).

My experience is similar as far as big machines go. I have been thinkpads that are easy to work with. That said, the new stuff is definitely built cheaper than what you could buy in prior years, and the small "ultrabooks" are annoying to disassemble.

They use hard clips requiring a spudger/pick, tiny screws, and in some cases solder modules onto the mainboard. Having a portable option that is built around being easy to repair and modify is something I have to support, even if it's not perfect.

Same here. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to the Framework laptops.

My HP laptop has an official support video on YouTube that shows how to tear down the entire device, with links to HP-blessed replacement components. It's not the most durable laptop, but it's pretty darn repairable. I was even able to swap in an (officially unsupported) Intel wifi card to replace the stock Broadcom card that was having driver issues with my network.

I have opened basically every laptop I own(ed) to replace memory/SSD and sometimes other components. The easiest to work with besides framework are my beefy thinkpads. The sleek ones are a PITA.

My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with. And the fact that the screen, keyboard, touchpad, battery are all readily available and easy to replace feels great.

Add to that the innovative configurable ports, and I can't really justify owning anything else.

Three things I hope framework addresses in the next generation: more max memory than the current 64GB, ECC RAM, dual USB-C adapters. If they address those, I might turn my workstation into a server and make this my primary machine.

> My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with.

It’s hard to overstate this. I bought the 13” DIY edition a few weeks back, and it was almost disappointingly easy to set up. I was expecting a bit of a project, but it took me about 40 minutes from opening the box to having Fedora installed and YouTube playing. And the chassis is as thin as my 14” MacBook Pro (15.95mm vs 15.5mm)

> with links to HP-blessed replacement components.

When Framework first came out, HP launched a "repairable" laptop that was as you said. Lots of useful support stuff on their website, etc.

Unfortunately, it turned out that actually ordering any of those replacement parts from HP wasn't really practical. The parts with either permanently out of stock, or some huge wait time (1 year+ maybe?).

Maybe things have gotten better...?

Adding to the anecdata: My experience with my current HP laptop was completely different. Two or three months after the warranty ended, the keyboard broke. Sending it to them would have cost 50€ for them to just tell me the repair costs, which might or might not have been credited to the final bill. In the end, my father and I replaced the keyboards by ourselves. You can't get or replace the keyboard as a part by itself, only with the whole plastic that makes up the top surface of the bottom shell, including a new mouse pad. You have to completely disassemble the laptop to do the swap. Two or something years later, and the keyboard broke in exactly the same way again. I think it's just the flex cable, but you can't replace it. They did end up releasing their internal repair guide like four years after the laptop came out, I guess that would have been nice to have for the repair. Also, one of the hinges snapped from the brittle and thin plastic that connected it to the bottom shell, but luckily that doesn't seem to have much of an effect when the laptop is assembled. (Also, another major annoyance, they cheaped out on the WiFi+BT chip and only connected one antenna, which makes the Bluetooth borderline unusable while WiFi is on.) Oh, and I've had two or something charging cables die on me because the way they come out of the charging brick doesn't protect them from strain very well. A replacement (with the standard 65W) is like 70-90$. I always found them cheaper for used, luckily.

I'll never buy a laptop (or anything at all, probably) from them again.

>I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned.

well with that attitude, it will never be worth it. I replace a laptop every 3-4 years for various reasons. I can upgrade the GPU in a framework for $500 every 2-3 years instead of grabbing a whole new laptop for $2000+*. If the core chasis/motherboard are sturdy enough to survive 2 laptop upgrades it's more than paid back its difference.

I don't have one but am keeping a close eye on it. current laptop is 2.5 years old so I'm very interested to see how things will progress in 2-3 more years.

-----

* for full transparency, my purchase history:

- entry level HP back in 2012: $1200 new after customizing a lot of stuff on it (the base price was like $650). It was back when they threw in an Xbox 360 with the laptop; I never used that Xbox.

- 2015 Asus strix laptop in 2015: ~1000 used, likely 1500 at market price

- 2017 Razer Blade in 2018: ~1300 used. That thing was easily $2300+ because Razer.

- finally, my current Asus ROG in 2021: ~$2700, pretty much has every bell and whistle at the time.

This is such a silly comment. The reason those laptops are so cheap, is because those companies have cut all corners. Framework will eventually be able to lower their prices a bit with volume, but not a lot. Building a solid computer that lasts you 10+ years where you can swap parts and everything isn't soldered will always be much more expensive. If you can't afford that right now, I can understand that. But it's time for us in tech, who mostly can afford to vote with our wallets, to vote for the companies selling us systemic solutions to industry problem.

Mine is the lack of TKL keyboard. I need those navigation keys.

The problem is Framework is limited by standards here. Is there a chipset + connector that works for GPU hot-swapping? Most consumer-grade PCIe chipsets don't support it, and even the OS probably doesn't support it. USB-C supports it, but that's a standard designed for external connectors, I don't think that there's a reliable internal USB C edge connector or something.

That's why I mentioned cold swapping which the Framework machine also doesn't support as the GPU module is bolted down with screws, which kind of defeats the purpose of Framework's modules idea.

Framework came across to me as more about easy repairs. How many other laptops on the market can you replace a GPU when it goes bad? Swapping out modules on the fly is something above and beyond what Framework is going for.

This thing is quite neat and I have a 13... but really was simply looking for a bigger workstation version of it with higher resolution screen and ECC memory.

Also I'd like some ports on the back. Why does every manufacturer expect you to like monitor cables running sideways across your desk? Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it.

As it stands, its a bit impractical and there isn't anything about it that would cause me to buy it over a 16" Precision with a 5k screen or something.

> Structurally it looks like the 16 could, but they didn't think of it.

I think they've probably made the right call. To be properly expandable for graphics cards, you need the flexibility that comes from allowing fairly significant size differences for different configurations, including allowing configurations that don't exist yet. The only reasonable place for a laptop form-factor to grow is out the back. I don't think it's possible therefore to have ports on the back be a standard thing, but perhaps a specific expansion module could have some in the future, since the expansion bay supports 8-lane PCIe 4.0.

Unfortunately don't need graphics expansion I need a workstation/desktop-replacement build. Believe that is a bigger market than enthusiast/PC-games, but could be wrong.

Also the resolution is too low for a graphics/video-editing workstation. Maybe crypto/ai? But heard nothing of a nvidia card so far.

I've been told that the current graphics expansion bay module does in fact have a usb-c port on it although I think this is mainly intended for video use rather than power.

I believe that Thunderbolt/USB-C probably played a role in laptops nearly all moving their ports to the sides. A single cable running from the side to a dock taking care of displays, USB, power, etc isn’t too annoying and easier to plug/unplug than multiple running from the back.

Side ports make sense on a 13/air type model, big desktop replacement not as much.

Also, FW doesn't sell a dock and the Dell dock I used to have was clunky and not that great. Now collecting dust, but been meaning to see if it is compatible with the fw13. However that will make my DP expansion port redundant. Not sure about graphics performance.

The Graphics Module on Framework Laptop 16 has a USB-C display output on the back of it. The Expansion Bay Shell doesn’t, but it would be possible to create a card with ports on it (and we have seen some community members start on it already).

That’s cool, thanks.

I’m still using lenovo t420s has all ports on the back

I appreciate seeing a hint at the history of the design changes, but now I'm left wanting more. Seeing a cross-section view (CT scan or CAD) that shows how the connectors are mating or secured would probably help me visualize how these are being used.

If anyone wants to lend us access to a CT machine, we’d love to share that! We do have some CAD at https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay

Maybe try to get in touch with Lumafield? They do CT scanning (and managed to make themselves known through "Scan of the Month"

lumafield.com scanofthemonth.com

Many universities will do this for a very inexpensive / low cost. I think the rates for my local university is like $100-150/hour for 50 micron scans?

I remember when I used to do laptop repairs in college (we were a certified Apple repair center), Apple had a great training on all the different types of internal connectors, how you should handle them, etc. Some of them are really, really fragile.

>Some of them are really, really fragile.

When you do your own repairs especially the first time, you find that out the hard way, and then you're more careful the next time ;)

I’m happy to answer any questions anyone has on the connectors or other parts of Framework Laptop 16.

Not a technical one. But are there any plans to make it available for the rest of us?

We’re continuing to add more countries a few at a time as we go. We recently added Italy, Spain, Belgium, and Taiwan.

By 'rest of us' I meant the third world. We also need better and more open hardware :)

On the keyboard, I see that insert, home, end, pg up, pg down keys, etc. are multiplexed. I hope there is a thinkpad like layout offered in the future where all these keys are dedicated keys.

The Input Module system means that it's possible to develop a module with additional keys that sits to the side of the keyboard. We have a few members of the community who have started on module projects that accomplish this.

Any plans for an ortholinear keyboard layout?

More of a broader/long term question, would it be possible to design/use a smaller motherboard? I recognise this is a bit of an unusual question, but the advantage of a small motherboard is being able to use it in all kinds of tablet/cyberdeck-esqe enclosures. Aaeon offers a 3.5” SBC with nearly every new generation of Intel processors, and while they’re commercial/industrial oriented (and therefore expensive), it shouldn’t be too hard for something like a common 4”*4” NUC form factor. A smaller board can fit a large laptop (and give more space for other components too).

Really hoping the community-designed Oculink port works out as it doesn't look like they'll make one officially.

I'm not interested in a laptop with an integrated GPU since I'm unlikely to need it much outside of home, but an unconstrained desktop eGPU would allow me to just have one computer instead of two.

I currently use a Framework laptop with Razer Core X for my eGPU over the Thunderbolt USBC ports and it works great. I guess the extra throughput Oculink provides might be beneficial for AI or video rendering?

I've expressed my interest in a Framework laptop over a year ago and I still can't get one in NZ. I'm starting to lose interest tbh.

I’m surprised there’s still no reviews if the framework 16 on YouTube (except some branded content here and there).

Did anybody actually get this laptop, so far?

I just need to understand if i should hold my breath or (again) go for an used thinkpad.

Last time framework didn’t ship to my country (yet), this time… will see.

The 16 hasn't been released.

As the opening sentence of the post says:

> This is likely our last Framework Laptop 16 Deep Dive before we start shipping, and those of you who ordered one can dive deep on your own

They've had some delays with manufacturing (https://community.frame.work/t/second-update-on-framework-la...), which they wanted to resolve before starting large scale manufacturing.

> attempts from other brands at making a modular graphics system in a notebook

i.e. Dell.

> the off-the-shelf FXBeam connector from Neoconix

So that's the company that makes the Dell Graphics Form Factor (DGFF) connectors[1], and that's why they're called beam connectors in the service manual[2] (search for it on that page; notice how similar the connectors are to Framework's). These have been used in Dell Precision workstations since the Precision 7530 and 7730 (released in 2018).

I ought to have realised that surely Dell didn't develop this themselves.

> We quickly found that these connectors (on the left in the image) could only reliably be installed once. On removing, handling, and reinstalling, it was easy to bend or break off the small pins.

After working with these connectors, they require some finesse, but they're not as fragile as the post makes them out to be. They're essentially tiny LGA sockets. Dell's implementation put the pins on the connectors and the contacts on the board, so the cheaper (and more disposable) component could break more easily. I'm not sure why Framework decided to forgo the connector and try to join both graphics card and motherboard directly together; this isn't addressed in the blog post.

That being said, 'beam connectors' still aren't cheap, though; when I asked Dell's service centre for spares, I was quoted something like SGD20/connector. They're roughly the same price on eBay[3].

[1]: https://i.imgur.com/aMal40L.jpeg

[2]: https://www.dell.com/support/manuals/en-uk/precision-15-7560....

[3]: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313...

I remember they and other vendors used to use a connector called MXM[1] for their graphics cards, as an attempt to create an industry standard. It looked promising, but seems to have fallen out of favor since then. I don't thing any ne GPU's have been released using MXM since 2019

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_PCI_Express_Module

Yes MXM has been abandoned by the companies that were originally driving it, though there is still some industrial usage.

One of the major issues with MXM is that it assumes the add-in cards stack on the mainboard, resulting in a thick system. We developed a custom module solution where the card and mainboard can be co-planar.

The Mainboard and Graphics mode aren't directly attached. They are connected through an Interposer cable that has 4x of the custom FXBeam connectors on an FPC.

Do ppl know if battery issues were resolved? Did amd cpu help?

Good article. Ended too early. Let's keep going.

Yeah it felt really weird getting to the end of the deep dive thinking there should be more here.

We try to keep the newsletter/blog posts as accessible and digestible as we can, but we have deeper technical detail on the interconnect scheme on GitHub: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay

Does anyone know if they plan to release a 'desktop/workstation' form factor? Zero interest in the FF'S they've been consumed with, thus far.

What's the point of that? Framework's whole thing is that it's modular and repairable. Desktop PCs are already that way.

https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/cases/mainboard-case/fr...

A case being made by Cooler Master for the Framework mainboards.

Hmm, this is interesting. For now, I have Intel Nuc Extreme, but with those being bought off by Asus, this might be something to consider for me in the future.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com