IMHO the focus here on HN and elsewhere on the antics of this person leads the debate astray somewhat. (Actually on every single activity this man is involved with, not just cars.) I do not find it beneficial.
Tesla is a multinational multi-million corporation trying to compete in a market that is undergoing a technological revolution. And, a very American corporation at that (as in not exactly guided by an European value set). Tesla is not one single man. If you want understanding you should consider that.
As for the current situation in Scandinavia, this company will have to adapt or go home eventually. Option two is not really an option, so they will adapt. Pressure against them goes only one way from here, up. Same for loss in profits. It started in one country, now they already face trouble in three.
"When in Rome..."
Highly recommend watching the full interview that Andrew Ross Sorkin did with Elon Musk (it is the one where he told advertisers to go fuck themselves) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfMuHDfGJI
It is wide ranging and fascinating. In it, he explicitly says that he doesn't do things in order for other people to like him. Instead, he focuses on making the best products (e.g. best cars, best rockets, best satellite).
He really, really, wants to be internet liked, that’s he claims he doesn’t care about.
If that were true, then why consciously piss so many people off?
Which is different than "liked by 100% of the global population"
Despite really disliking Elon as a whole, one thing I like about him is that he expresses himself like a human being, contrary to most of the HR/PR/D&I drones who claim he's an antisemite now.
We saw the tweets (it wasn't just the one) he boosted and agreed with.
You can absolutely be a 'real' and authentic person without promoting that kind of garbage.
I don't think I'm alone in having previously thought he was perhaps a bit eccentric, but involved in some cool stuff. I lost a lot of respect for him though.
We all screw up, and IDK, maybe once could be like "uh, sorry, I was really high and not at all myself and I did this thing", but a repeated pattern is enough to convince me that where there's smoke, there's fire.
I don't take any pleasure in it. I preferred thinking he was a bit weird (but who isn't) and doing some cool things.
You think he repeatedly demonstrates antisemitism? The evidence is quite the opposite if you listened to the interviews he does on the topic of the war between Israel and Hamas (this interview being one of them, where he talks in nuanced terms about the difficulty of peace in the Middle East in general and the difficulty of the current war in particular).
This is like pointing out that a murderer went their whole life up until the alleged murder doing stuff that wasn't murdering (as far as we know), and has done so since, too (as far as we know), so how can they be a murderer?
It's worth noting, too, like the killer, the examples we know of are just the examples we know of.
If there's part of the interview where he admits he endorsed an anti-semetic conspiracy theory, and was wrong to do so (not just that it was a mistake) and explains how he came to endorse an anti-semetic conspiracy theory, and how he now rejects the anti-semetic conspiracy theory and the anti-semites who subscribe to it, perhaps he should put that info into the format and platform that he used to endorse an anti-semetic conspiracy theory.
However, putting Tesla directly into the political line of fire with the union fight seems more like a case of personal beliefs run amok. Many companies making cars in the United States run non-union shops, including most of the Japanese ones. Their behavior abroad doesn't usually create a problem. But the more that Tesla itself is positioned as a political entity, rather than a car company that happens to have a conservative CEO (which didn't kill Taco Bell), the more he invites the kind of backlash that could really hurt. European regulators watching him scorn their beliefs may take that into account, fairly or not, if they are called on to mediate this union dispute. It seems like a very risky overextension.
Or, he's a 50yo man with multiple divorces, few personal friends to vent to, and numerous children he's not on speaking terms with.
He just joined the millions of men his age that have the same baggage and the free time to spend bloviating online about wokeness.
It is implied with the phrase “burns company hours”
elmu's tasking of his staff to figure out why his trolling wasn't making him popular enough was a real thing, and a good example of his time wasting abilities in furtherance of his desperate, desperate, desperate need to feel popular.
Is that what he told the banks when he was taking out the loan to buy Twitter?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-...
Then why piss off advertisers?
If you want proof that Elon isn't too concerned about making good products, try using Twitter/X without being logged in. The experience is significantly worse than before the takeover.
If you cared to watch the the interview I linked to above with Andrew Ross Sorkin at the NYT Dealbook summmit, you will hear three things:
a) remorse for the dumb thing he said (he says it is probably the worst mistake he has made)
b) when you say a lot, you're abound to say foolish things and that he has
c) he actually re-explained his clarification of the logic that was widely labeled as antisemitic but that people have chosen to ignore it. If you think this is a cop out, look at (a) again, where he expresses remorse for having said what he said in the way he said it.
> Then he got mad at advertisers for, as he thought, trying to rein him in.
Yes, when people try to limit what you say (beyond the law) then it is natural to be upset about it.
> If you want proof that Elon isn't too concerned about making good products, try using Twitter/X without being logged in. The experience is significantly worse than before the takeover.
Let's talk in 3 years.
Meanwhile, I'll point you to Tesla (Model Y is the best-selling car of any kind across the world), SpaceX, and Starlink. I don't know about you, but I would classify these as best in class.
X operates worldwide and even though Elon Musk is a staunch believer in free speech, X also has to follow laws of different jurisdictions, including limitations on speech.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. And I don't believe it.
It’s a very specific and weird personality type that’s constantly drawn to white knighting racists and billionaires.
"Foolish things" sure, but this is a little too forgiving. If I talk enough, I'm bound to call someone the N word at some point, for example?
This is the same interview where he told the advertisers he needs for revenue to go fuck themselves. I don't think the remorse is genuine.
> Yes, when people try to limit what you say (beyond the law) then it is natural to be upset about it.
I also feel that Disney is limiting what I say by not giving me millions in ad revenue. That's just the reality I have to live with though.
Most people have all kinds of practical limitations on what they can say. I can't tell my boss to go fuck himself and still put food on the table. Joe Biden can't tell the American public to go fuck themselves and still get elected. I'm not sure why Elon feels entitled to be uniquely free from consequences for his utterances.
He posts on Twitter because he’s addicted to it &can’t really stop himself. It’s not a grand strategy of PR.
In that sense, I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt there, but I don't understand why he has to do it with his real name.
You might have that view of YouTube in general but this is an interview during the New York Times Dealbook summit.
BTW, you will always reach the point where you need to "curtail[..] your own citizens from living as they please" or else you'll end up with kids blowing up your stuff just for the fun of it.
More in the classic libertarian sense that if what I enjoy is not directly harming you or taking away your rights, keep to your own business.
Here it is a Scandinavian choosing to buy a Tesla with no concern or argument concerning labor unions. BTW, the UAW sucks.
The workers are unionised because if they weren't, Tesla would be leading the charge on torching whatever rights workers had previously agreed to.
More countries could stand to do this, to show that it is the people who have power over corporations, not the other way around.
If the freight workers unloading shipping containers containing iPhones choose to strike, it will be due to changes in working conditions that affect them, not what conditions are like in a foreign factory.
Tesla is a big seller in Norway, then Sweden, followed third by Denmark in Scandinavia. The governments push them legislatively and via financial subsidies. I am not fully informed of the metal worker's gripes in Sweden, nor the labor structures in Scandinavia, but the mob of Norway dock workers and others in Denmark unions all joining in, because Elon doesn't agree with unions or forming them, seems more a first-world problem (like people not potentially getting their iPhones), but with the iPhone nobody boycotted Apple from 2006 to 2010, and then in 2012, writers, not unions, started to raise consumer consciousness on the issue with suggestions of boycotts on Apple.
I hope Elon tells Scandinavia to F-off like he just did to X advertisers. Sweden is one of the world's most unionized nations, but it is a fairly homongenous society. The percentages are going down as they accept more immigrants into their society. In addition, Scandinavia has bought the EV craze hook, line, and sinker, even though EVs are turning out not to be the cure for all the ills of the world as many thought they once were. They are heavily invested in many ways. I am curious to see how this plays out.
[Edit] I don't think the consumers are personally buying Teslas to financially support Elon personally, but by choosing to buy a Tesla they are voting with their wallets, and I think pro- and anti-union are two valid stances. Neither is the product of being brainwashed as some have commented here.
Okay, let's let the people decide whether they want to buy heroin and support violent cartels. Let's take the same approach to slavery. Or fire safety of buildings.
In fact, can you name 1 occasion in history when a consumer boycott stopped any kind of bad corporate behaviour - it does not even stop child slavery.
Do you agree with the legal sale of alcohol then? Over 80% of violent crimes involve it. Prohibition didn't work, did it? Personally, I don't drink, but hey, you can drink yourself to death as long as you don't drive and hurt me or others - DUIs, violence, etc...
The unions will fall in Scandinavia once the countries become less homogeneous as much as some fight it. They are already declining in number and you can't blame Elon.
While your at it, according to your logic, they should put curfews on citizens going out at the hours surrounding noon and midnight to prevent crime, since so much of it takes place at that time. You don't want to support violent crime do you? While your at it, ban alcohol and end government taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, because bad, and people are infants to be raised by Big Brother.
Without the 'mob of workers' you would enjoy the same working conditions as currently they have in factories in China, for children.
We literally used to send children to die in the coalmines untill the 'mob of workers' stopped it.
IMO soon he will admit all this anti union stuff was also dumb.
For what it’s worth, I don’t consider myself a fan, for the simple reason that I think no human is perfect or likable (Steve Jobs, Bach, Napoleon, Mother Theresa, to name a few). Instead it is better to evaluate someone’s ideas and impact.
What is disappointing to me is that we (I count myself here too) make up a rigid opinion of people based on memes, sound bites, unnuanced morsels of information, rather than demonstrating deep curiosity.
And so my responses on this thread should be viewed through the lens of surfacing more nuance and curiosity, rather than cheap and absolutist opinions that lack nuance.
More conversation please.
When he admits it was dumb and his fans argued for hours that it was smart how do they feel?
I do not mean you should stop loving Elon if he says say some dumb stuff, but why should Elon fans defend dumb stuff with even more dumb arguments.