From what I understand the strikers aren't asking for more money or anything specific other than Tesla to honor collective bargaining with unions Tesla cannot have different deals with different shops, has to respect what it agrees with unions.
Highly recommend watching the full interview that Andrew Ross Sorkin did with Elon Musk (it is the one where he told advertisers to go fuck themselves) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfMuHDfGJI
It is wide ranging and fascinating. In it, he explicitly says that he doesn't do things in order for other people to like him. Instead, he focuses on making the best products (e.g. best cars, best rockets, best satellite).
He really, really, wants to be internet liked, that’s he claims he doesn’t care about.
If that were true, then why consciously piss so many people off?
Which is different than "liked by 100% of the global population"
Despite really disliking Elon as a whole, one thing I like about him is that he expresses himself like a human being, contrary to most of the HR/PR/D&I drones who claim he's an antisemite now.
We saw the tweets (it wasn't just the one) he boosted and agreed with.
You can absolutely be a 'real' and authentic person without promoting that kind of garbage.
I don't think I'm alone in having previously thought he was perhaps a bit eccentric, but involved in some cool stuff. I lost a lot of respect for him though.
We all screw up, and IDK, maybe once could be like "uh, sorry, I was really high and not at all myself and I did this thing", but a repeated pattern is enough to convince me that where there's smoke, there's fire.
I don't take any pleasure in it. I preferred thinking he was a bit weird (but who isn't) and doing some cool things.
You think he repeatedly demonstrates antisemitism? The evidence is quite the opposite if you listened to the interviews he does on the topic of the war between Israel and Hamas (this interview being one of them, where he talks in nuanced terms about the difficulty of peace in the Middle East in general and the difficulty of the current war in particular).
This is like pointing out that a murderer went their whole life up until the alleged murder doing stuff that wasn't murdering (as far as we know), and has done so since, too (as far as we know), so how can they be a murderer?
It's worth noting, too, like the killer, the examples we know of are just the examples we know of.
If there's part of the interview where he admits he endorsed an anti-semetic conspiracy theory, and was wrong to do so (not just that it was a mistake) and explains how he came to endorse an anti-semetic conspiracy theory, and how he now rejects the anti-semetic conspiracy theory and the anti-semites who subscribe to it, perhaps he should put that info into the format and platform that he used to endorse an anti-semetic conspiracy theory.
However, putting Tesla directly into the political line of fire with the union fight seems more like a case of personal beliefs run amok. Many companies making cars in the United States run non-union shops, including most of the Japanese ones. Their behavior abroad doesn't usually create a problem. But the more that Tesla itself is positioned as a political entity, rather than a car company that happens to have a conservative CEO (which didn't kill Taco Bell), the more he invites the kind of backlash that could really hurt. European regulators watching him scorn their beliefs may take that into account, fairly or not, if they are called on to mediate this union dispute. It seems like a very risky overextension.
Or, he's a 50yo man with multiple divorces, few personal friends to vent to, and numerous children he's not on speaking terms with.
He just joined the millions of men his age that have the same baggage and the free time to spend bloviating online about wokeness.
It is implied with the phrase “burns company hours”
elmu's tasking of his staff to figure out why his trolling wasn't making him popular enough was a real thing, and a good example of his time wasting abilities in furtherance of his desperate, desperate, desperate need to feel popular.
Is that what he told the banks when he was taking out the loan to buy Twitter?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-...
Then why piss off advertisers?
If you want proof that Elon isn't too concerned about making good products, try using Twitter/X without being logged in. The experience is significantly worse than before the takeover.
If you cared to watch the the interview I linked to above with Andrew Ross Sorkin at the NYT Dealbook summmit, you will hear three things:
a) remorse for the dumb thing he said (he says it is probably the worst mistake he has made)
b) when you say a lot, you're abound to say foolish things and that he has
c) he actually re-explained his clarification of the logic that was widely labeled as antisemitic but that people have chosen to ignore it. If you think this is a cop out, look at (a) again, where he expresses remorse for having said what he said in the way he said it.
> Then he got mad at advertisers for, as he thought, trying to rein him in.
Yes, when people try to limit what you say (beyond the law) then it is natural to be upset about it.
> If you want proof that Elon isn't too concerned about making good products, try using Twitter/X without being logged in. The experience is significantly worse than before the takeover.
Let's talk in 3 years.
Meanwhile, I'll point you to Tesla (Model Y is the best-selling car of any kind across the world), SpaceX, and Starlink. I don't know about you, but I would classify these as best in class.
X operates worldwide and even though Elon Musk is a staunch believer in free speech, X also has to follow laws of different jurisdictions, including limitations on speech.
That's just, like, your opinion, man. And I don't believe it.
It’s a very specific and weird personality type that’s constantly drawn to white knighting racists and billionaires.
"Foolish things" sure, but this is a little too forgiving. If I talk enough, I'm bound to call someone the N word at some point, for example?
This is the same interview where he told the advertisers he needs for revenue to go fuck themselves. I don't think the remorse is genuine.
> Yes, when people try to limit what you say (beyond the law) then it is natural to be upset about it.
I also feel that Disney is limiting what I say by not giving me millions in ad revenue. That's just the reality I have to live with though.
Most people have all kinds of practical limitations on what they can say. I can't tell my boss to go fuck himself and still put food on the table. Joe Biden can't tell the American public to go fuck themselves and still get elected. I'm not sure why Elon feels entitled to be uniquely free from consequences for his utterances.
He posts on Twitter because he’s addicted to it &can’t really stop himself. It’s not a grand strategy of PR.
In that sense, I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt there, but I don't understand why he has to do it with his real name.
You might have that view of YouTube in general but this is an interview during the New York Times Dealbook summit.
BTW, you will always reach the point where you need to "curtail[..] your own citizens from living as they please" or else you'll end up with kids blowing up your stuff just for the fun of it.
More in the classic libertarian sense that if what I enjoy is not directly harming you or taking away your rights, keep to your own business.
Here it is a Scandinavian choosing to buy a Tesla with no concern or argument concerning labor unions. BTW, the UAW sucks.
The workers are unionised because if they weren't, Tesla would be leading the charge on torching whatever rights workers had previously agreed to.
More countries could stand to do this, to show that it is the people who have power over corporations, not the other way around.
If the freight workers unloading shipping containers containing iPhones choose to strike, it will be due to changes in working conditions that affect them, not what conditions are like in a foreign factory.
Tesla is a big seller in Norway, then Sweden, followed third by Denmark in Scandinavia. The governments push them legislatively and via financial subsidies. I am not fully informed of the metal worker's gripes in Sweden, nor the labor structures in Scandinavia, but the mob of Norway dock workers and others in Denmark unions all joining in, because Elon doesn't agree with unions or forming them, seems more a first-world problem (like people not potentially getting their iPhones), but with the iPhone nobody boycotted Apple from 2006 to 2010, and then in 2012, writers, not unions, started to raise consumer consciousness on the issue with suggestions of boycotts on Apple.
I hope Elon tells Scandinavia to F-off like he just did to X advertisers. Sweden is one of the world's most unionized nations, but it is a fairly homongenous society. The percentages are going down as they accept more immigrants into their society. In addition, Scandinavia has bought the EV craze hook, line, and sinker, even though EVs are turning out not to be the cure for all the ills of the world as many thought they once were. They are heavily invested in many ways. I am curious to see how this plays out.
[Edit] I don't think the consumers are personally buying Teslas to financially support Elon personally, but by choosing to buy a Tesla they are voting with their wallets, and I think pro- and anti-union are two valid stances. Neither is the product of being brainwashed as some have commented here.
Okay, let's let the people decide whether they want to buy heroin and support violent cartels. Let's take the same approach to slavery. Or fire safety of buildings.
In fact, can you name 1 occasion in history when a consumer boycott stopped any kind of bad corporate behaviour - it does not even stop child slavery.
Do you agree with the legal sale of alcohol then? Over 80% of violent crimes involve it. Prohibition didn't work, did it? Personally, I don't drink, but hey, you can drink yourself to death as long as you don't drive and hurt me or others - DUIs, violence, etc...
The unions will fall in Scandinavia once the countries become less homogeneous as much as some fight it. They are already declining in number and you can't blame Elon.
While your at it, according to your logic, they should put curfews on citizens going out at the hours surrounding noon and midnight to prevent crime, since so much of it takes place at that time. You don't want to support violent crime do you? While your at it, ban alcohol and end government taxes on cigarettes and alcohol, because bad, and people are infants to be raised by Big Brother.
Without the 'mob of workers' you would enjoy the same working conditions as currently they have in factories in China, for children.
We literally used to send children to die in the coalmines untill the 'mob of workers' stopped it.
IMO soon he will admit all this anti union stuff was also dumb.
For what it’s worth, I don’t consider myself a fan, for the simple reason that I think no human is perfect or likable (Steve Jobs, Bach, Napoleon, Mother Theresa, to name a few). Instead it is better to evaluate someone’s ideas and impact.
What is disappointing to me is that we (I count myself here too) make up a rigid opinion of people based on memes, sound bites, unnuanced morsels of information, rather than demonstrating deep curiosity.
And so my responses on this thread should be viewed through the lens of surfacing more nuance and curiosity, rather than cheap and absolutist opinions that lack nuance.
More conversation please.
When he admits it was dumb and his fans argued for hours that it was smart how do they feel?
I do not mean you should stop loving Elon if he says say some dumb stuff, but why should Elon fans defend dumb stuff with even more dumb arguments.
IMHO the focus here on HN and elsewhere on the antics of this person leads the debate astray somewhat. (Actually on every single activity this man is involved with, not just cars.) I do not find it beneficial.
Tesla is a multinational multi-million corporation trying to compete in a market that is undergoing a technological revolution. And, a very American corporation at that (as in not exactly guided by an European value set). Tesla is not one single man. If you want understanding you should consider that.
As for the current situation in Scandinavia, this company will have to adapt or go home eventually. Option two is not really an option, so they will adapt. Pressure against them goes only one way from here, up. Same for loss in profits. It started in one country, now they already face trouble in three.
"When in Rome..."
Like respecting local laws and customs?
Same people who deride local laws in Europe get really worked up when someone tries it in US.
In Europe a lot of countries have a system of "Tarifvertrag" ("tarrif contract", but really "collective agreement"). In such contracts the workers union of a section (e.g. metal) do a contract with the business union of the employers. They settle then down to "give 28 days of holidays and x EUR per month to each" ... and then they won't strike. The special thing about this "Tarifvertrag" is now that EVERYBODY benefits from them, union member or not! In Sweden, for example, such general tariffs apply to 90% of the employees. So you can see how normal it's seen there. Anything that fights against this normality is thus seen not favorably (in Denmark it's 80%, in Germany it's much less, just 51%).
Now, Tesla Sweden says that they don't won't to follow such a model, since Eon Musky is, as many US brainwashed business people, is strictly anti-union. Whatever comes from unions is surely coming right from hell :-)
And so in October 130 Tesla employees in various service stations went to strike. Musky didn't bulge. In November 470 employees did strike. Musky still thinking he can work against unions (not with them, like it is custom in Europe, maybe with the exception of France, you can't work with their unions ...). Then workers from other swedish unions said "We don't load/unload for Tesla in Sweden". And now danish and and norwegian workers joined as well.
Currently 12 different unions joined the "make Tesla think a bit more european" strike.
Isn't Musk actually born South African? Then he became Canadian and lastly American? Not that it makes much of a difference, I just find it odd as labelling him as US brainwashed when canonically, his origin isn't the US.
If that's the case, then Tesla would have been subject to the CC as well, regardless of the unionised status of the employees.
Us Scandinavians on the other hand find it pretty baffling that someone would just roll over to a megalomaniac who clearly states he would like to destroy what makes our countries great, our unions and working conditions.
But I wouldn't want a specific union to have a monopoly over my entire country and in case I don't want them to they shouldn't meddle with my work.
And to be honest I believe that the state postal workers should have absolutely no say on whether someone gets their mail delivered.
The whole point of the union system is to be a separate pillar of power to the state to keep it in check.
I'm not suggesting anything.
Actually they are no longer state postal workers. PostNord is owned by the Swedish and Danish states but it is not a part of the state as post offices used to be, it's no longer the Royal Mail.
When a company is 100% state-owned and state-run then it is a public institution. The special thing here is that Sweden and Denmark share it.
They are still profit driven, like most state-owned companies in Scandinavia.
What governments have done here is to deregulate the postal services to a fairly large degree so that there is genuine competition at least for parcels. I can send parcels using three different services here in Norway: Posten (the former royal mail, now a state owned company), Helthjem a company owned by a bi online trading site and media company (a bit like eBay), and the now infamous Swedish-Danish PostNord.
If one of them puts up the prices the others will just get more business.
The liberalisation of postal services is also required by an EU directive.
Appointing a new CEO of a state-owned company and telling him what to do is hardly a 'dictatorship'. Maybe if it was a public broadcaster and the government made editorial decisions.
My country also has a national Post Office which is a joint stock company and the state 'only' owns all of the shares. It is still definitely a public institution.
In Denmark the government just took away all subsidies to the PostNord company. Prices will double next year, and some areas will not be served at all. Mind you there is no alternative for common mail, only for parcel delivery.
But sure, go fight your fight with the megalomaniac...
Now don't try to tell me that bargaining power isn't a thing. With more bargaining power you can often get better deals!
Note that Unions work very differently across different parts of the world. So your local union might be very different from ones that I've experienced.
You are right on this one. My experience with unions is that they want people to have a job even if that job is more efficiently done by a machine or to get salary increases even if the company is doing poorly because of outside market factors (like not enough sales due to poor economy and so on).
And while the goal might be ideal, the reality is quite different.
I would say it is worse for people in Chicago that work in the big slaughterhouses and even though they can pursue other opportunities, they still choose to work there.
Using the "small town, no options" narrative doesn't really hold water.
Using all your extensive savings from a job that in many parts of the US, pays up to 20% less than the livable wage?
It's literally not "free" to move. If it were, many people would've done it a long time ago. Beside the financial cost, there are also very real social costs like losing friends and family - basically your whole support network, as well as putting all of that burden on a potential spouse and maybe kids too.
Almost everyone on HN can live to standards that would have been between comfortable and luxurious a hundred years ago, possibly even in a developed country. (The median world wage--assuming a 40-hour work week with 2 weeks off, which is not the median working schedule--is $5/day [1].)
This doesn't undermine the struggle. Just that there is, to varying degrees (but increasingly so among anyone in tech), a choice being made.
[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-househo...
I'm lucky, I can go find other work and live without working for a while.
Someone on the poverty line working a warehouse job for health insurance to cover their diabetes in America is not able to "just move to a new place" like a sibling comment stated. The real goal should be to raise the bottom line up so even the poorest have a decent standard of living which is how the Nordic countries behave.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...