I’d pay a premium for a solid state AC or heat pump. It’s absurd how much they cost to install.
And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. There should be standard connections they just plug into. Like a dishwasher.
And I don’t get why replacing one is an all day job for three people. There should be standard connections they just plug into. Like a dishwasher.
It's interesting that Americans are retrofitting them into HVAC systems, while in the UK we're trying to retrofit into natgas/water based systems, and seemingly the Scandinavians have gone for .. I'm not sure but it seems cheaper?
I upgraded to a "hybrid" system because it was the least cost / minimal change, so I continue to have natgas hot water which can optionally heat the radiators if the control unit deems it economic (no, it doesn't have dynamic pricing). And that was still £15,000 even though it could reuse all the existing radiators. Apparently having 8mm "microbore" copper plumbing is a problem for "low temperature" heat pump systems, because they rely on higher throughput.
At the end of winter I'll write-up my bills and evaluate the experience.
Air to air is much cheaper and is more efficient because it doesn't need to raise the temperature of the working fluid so much and doesn't require a big fluid to water heat exchanger.
I'm having a Toshiba Polar 35 heat pump installed soon. Nominal output 3.5 kW, maximum output 7 kW. The total cost is 28 kNOK, about 2.6 kUSD, 2 kGBP. Should be enough for the whole ground floor of about 80 square metres.
"Difluoromethane, also called difluoromethylene, HFC-32 Methylene Fluoride or R-32, " [2]
[1] https://www.toshibavarmepumper.no/globalassets/inriver/resou...
So yes, air-to-refrigerant-to-air. But your packaged terminal heat pump is also air-to-refrigerant-to-air. Both are just refrigerators turned inside out.
"“Packaged terminal heat pump” means a packaged terminal air conditioner that utilizes reverse cycle refrigeration as its prime heat source, " [1]
[1] https://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/s...
Most heat pumps installed in dwellings in Norway are capable of cooling the building as well as heating it. This is the one that will be installed in my house (in Norwegian, Google does a good translation job): https://www.toshibavarmepumper.no/varmepumper-luft-luft/tosh...
> Air to air is much cheaper and is more efficient because it doesn't need to raise the temperature of the working fluid so much and doesn't require a big fluid to water heat exchanger
It might still be worth it to go with water based system if you're going to have underfloor heating. It requires lower water temperatures, so efficiency hit is not that big compared to air-to-air systems (if there is a hit at all).
As a bonus, there are some savings from using the heat pump to heat the hot water for showering and you get the supreme cozyness of warm floors.
On the other hand, now you need some other way of cooling in the summer as underfloor system will not work for that.
:-)
The majority of the world deal with these temps for months on end without A/C.
After a pipe burst in the baseboard heating system (because it wasn't running, it was only -10F outside, and the pipe passed through a poorly insulated area of the house), I had the HVAC company rewire the system to use the gas-fired, forced hot water baseboard system as the backup. I look forward to much lower heating costs this Winter.
I understand your bill went up because the backup electric heating was kicking in.
I don't understand why in 2022 it would even be an option to get a heat pump installed that only works down to 25°F. That's super outdated tech.
It was nothing but "only rich people are buying these right now so lets cash in" pricing
https://www.acdirect.com/ductless-mini-splits/8-zone-mini-sp...
80k is hilarious. That’s a 70k install for pulling lines, charging them and maybe an electrical run and pad.
Even if you have to buy two or three systems the price is laughable.
A large multi-zone installation (~20 rooms) with all-new duct work and natural gas backup in a major cold-weather US metro can be about $40K.
Where natgas can lose its lustre is on delivery/standing charges. And sometimes transmission and distribution charges (those usually scale with use, but can make cheap gas expensive).
On smaller/well insulated homes, the fixed gas connection cost can really improve heat pumps economics if you're already on electric grid and can cutoff gas entirely. Or have an aux source like oil/propane/wood.
The fun part is that utilities are generally a regulated rate of return business, so as users disconnect, the base costs go up on the remaining subscribers. Pushing more subscribers to disconnect from the gas grid, pushing cost up on the remaining...
I wouldn't invest in natgas distribution companies in mild-moderate climates.
Of course the maintenance costs and the amortized cost of infra is a much larger proportion of the gas bill, but the utility can't pass that on to customers as a fixed monthly fee. Gov't tariffs usually make that illegal
The hardest part of installing AC is the ductwork. Swapping out the outside + inside heat exchanger unit is a 1-person 3-4-hour job.
Sorry if some HVAC company scammed you, but it's definitely not a 3 person job, unless we're talking some commercial building 5+ ton units.
Seemed like a lot of wiring and charging things. I didn’t think it should take that long either.
Their price was in line with other quotes. I wasn’t paying by the hour or anything.
Anyway, the install itself was about $400, took one guy a few hours like you said. Another $200 for the electrician which had to hook up a dedicated circuit for it as per regulations, though he did it as part of a larger job so would have been $300 as a stand-alone deal.
Total it was $2200. This is considered a premium unit over here, we could have gotten something cheaper but alas looks matter.
Thing is supposedly guaranteed to provide COP of 2 down to -25C. We've had such low temps here a several times (in fact past week has been around -15 to -17C with a harsh 85% humidity, biting!) and we've never had to turn on the backup floor heating so far. Though you can definitely hear it working harder when it's that cold.
[1]: https://mee.no/privat/produktkategori/luft-luft-varmepumper/...
The plumbing is covered by a plastic cover, both for protection and looks.
We have a small wooden "shed" for the outside unit[2], to protect it from getting clogged up with snow and also to make it less visible. Both the plastic cover and the "shed" is painted in the same color as our home, so blends in nicely.
[1]: https://www.varmepumpeservice.no/mitsubishi-kaiteki-6300-hvi...
Funny that you mention standards.
It should be possible to swap out the multimedia device in your car with a new one. It should use a standard connector and form factor.
So I guess we should start working on standards that would improve our world and make reuse possible instead of buying even more new shit all the time.
If it cut my electricity bill in half it would take 10-20 years to break even.
We recently upgraded our central heat pump as the old one died after 15 years or so. IIRC the total was $13k CAD, so around 9-10k USD, which included indoor and outdoor units for a roughly 3000sqft house, with installation. But all the ducting was there already, so it was just a matter of swapping out old unit for new. (Got some nice government grants too, so it was only a few k out of pocket.)
Presumably there is a useful life on your existing heating system. At some point it would need replacing?
Let's go through the whole process. You need a system changeout for a ducted central HVAC system. Someone comes over and gives a bid. You accept. Your HVAC person needs to go to a supply house and purchase all of the parts and bring them to your residence in a vehicle than can hold everything.
Assuming you have an existing system, the refrigerant has to be recovered with a special recovery pump. You can't just dump refrigerant to the atmosphere. This can take an hour or so.
You've got to find the right breaker(s) and then turn them off. Disconnect the power wiring. Then you've gotta disassemble the old equipment and remove it. Next you move in the new equipment. Rewire the power. Rewire the controls wiring. Assemble the new equipment, assemble plenums, cut holes in plenums, install collars, run duct work from plenums to boxes, attach and seal all ductwork with tape, mastic, etc. You need to strap up the ducts to properly. You still need to solder the line set at this point.
If your new equipment runs on a different type of refrigerant, in all likelihood, you need a new line set (the copper tubes that transport the refrigerant to the evaporator from the condenser and back). Why? Different refrigerants have different working pressures, may require higher flow, etc.
Once you're lineset is soldered back to a condenser AND the evaporator, then you must pull a vacuum on the system to A) remove non condensable gases and B) dehydrate the system so that your refrigerants are clean and the system is efficient. Properly pulling a vacuum is very time consuming. Most guys start by pulling an initial vacuum and then shutting in the system to do a leak test. You may find a leak, this takes more time. You need to repair the leak, then pull another vacuum. Once you past leak test, you pull a final vacuum. You don't want installers skimping on this step as this affects the overall lifespan of the system and system efficiency.
At this point, you can start the system (I've had new units dead from the factory... groan), then you can start charging the system with refrigerant. You need to let the system run for a bit to monitor pressures, monitor return air and supply air temps, etc.
Once the job is done, all of the old equipment and refrigerant has to be taken to specific places for proper disposal.
Everything above is a generally straight forward non-permitted replacement. Other installs may require new circuits run to the equipment, natural gas lines, etc. Some jobs require permits so now the HVAC person has to go to the city, apply for permits, submit plans, have the work inspected, etc.
There's quite a bit of work that has to be done which requires transportation, disposal, specialized knowledge, expensive tools, employees, and most important of all, insurance! Also, keep in mind that a lot of this work is done at temperatures FAR beyond ambient AND in low clearance areas, usually filled with itchy fiberglass. This work is also done with risk of bodily harm (electrocution, poisoning (hello phosgene gas), suffocation (asphyxiation from refrigerants), heat stroke, falls from height, exposure to industrial pollutants like asbestos, burns).
But not $10K for a mini-split.
[0] I mean real duct tape: the UL181 stuff. The world is full of kinds of tape, and many of them are excellent. I’ve never seen anything I would call excellent duct tape. It doesn’t conform well to irregularities, and it doesn’t seem to have anywhere near the stretchiness required to actually seal the inherently curved gap between round ducts.