Passage by 1Password | Hacker News Reader

Passage by 1Password

passage.1password.com

33 pointslkurtz9 comments

I'm very bearish on Passkeys as a concept. As a technologist and security advocate, I'm glad that it helps to defeat phishing attacks, and the problem of reusing passwords/credential stuffing. But the UX is just not there yet. I jumped on the hype train and set up Passkeys for my Google account using 1Password, from Chrome on my iPhone. At some point, the enrolment procedure "failed", that is to say, my passkey was set up, but I didn't know it, so I repeated the procedure. This meant I had two "identical" passkeys for Google in my 1password, and two passkeys to which to sign into Google.

Neither Google nor 1password had any way to distinguish which key was which. There's no export functionality (yes, I understand this is by design). There's no (user facing) key IDs. So, my choices were: accept that I have two passkeys, and never know which is which; risk deleting one or the other, or abandon the whole notion and go back to hardware 2FA.

This doesn't even get into the mess of: * browser based passkeys: what if I switch computers or phones? Now I have the "yubikey problem (have 3 so you can safely lose 1)" for every single device I own. * hardware security tokens (Yubikey): in the case of Google, they aren't accepted as a "sign-in" passkey, only a "verification" passkey. However, a browser passkey is accepted. Do I need hardware 2FA? Do I need a password? I have no idea.

Let's be clear. There are absolutely solutions to all of the above. I am certain I made bad assumptions or mistakes here. But I also have been using computers with a bent towards security for my entire life. If I can't get this right, how is the average user being pushed to go "passwordless" on eBay going to deal with this mess in 3 years?

If you're a company considering implementing this, I'd be taking a very hard look at the ongoing support costs dealing with confused and panicked users locked out of their accounts.

I’m a fan of passkeys and bullish on continued UX improvements but completely agree with you. Even basic things like “when I’m on a website, show all my passkeys for it and where they’re stored (browser, 1password, macos keychain)” or “when I’m adding a passkey for a site, properly choose where it’s stored and know what other devices it will be synced to or accessible from” are hard or impossible or confusing. Improvements needed.

If I were maintaining an auth system right now, I’d make sure webauthn was supported as both a login and 2fa method, make sure i didnt require hardware-scoped keys, and leave them off by default. Advanced users can opt in and support themselves. 2fa defaults to the standard qr code. Logging in allows “send me a magic link” but defaults to email and password. No usernames. I feel like thats reasonable?

I'm bullish based on my experience, but I'm using Apple's implementation and my Yubikeys. It has been flawless so far

I'm bullish and I think Passkeys, or some variant of on-behalf-of attestation, could be on of the worst technology related things to ever happen to the average person.

The reason I'm bullish is because all of the entrenched tech players are pushing them. The reason I think it's terrible is because the entire concept is dangerous. It's "one thing you have" (a key) that can attest to your identity. Whether or not that's attesting for you or against you is yet to be seen and I'd bet the farm on against.

As soon as tech companies have the ability to force you into using some type of device for authentication and authorization, I think the floodgates will open on abuse. It's a huge building block on the road to ensuring people never own anything, because per-use access can easily be gated now, and I think that's why big tech wants it so bad. They're going to get "a cut" for doing the auth, so why not, right?

It doesn't matter if tech enthusiasts resist either. We've seen the same story play out over and over. Developers gave Apple the keys to the kingdom for app distribution and rolled over as Adobe started charging subscriptions for desktop software. As soon as enough uninformed users accept what they're being pushed, it'll become a requirement and your options will be capitulation or exclusion.

Consider whether or not you'd want the right to use your car tied to a passkey that contacts the manufacturer, attests to your identity (authentication), and needs to get a token (authorization) before it'll start. People would never tolerate a password requirement to start their car, but a Passkey that's built in (ex: to a phone or watch) and works OTA via the cell network will easily be sold as good security, but it's really just to benefit the company leasing you the car because they can revoke access at any time.

This! Just this!

Please take note of what @donmcronald says here - phrased before I could, and better than I could.

The concept of Passkeys sounds great, but the way it will be implemented will result in a massively net-negative privacy impact that will be very hard to escape from.

I mean, most of your arguments could be applied equally against credit/debit cards. It's "one thing you have" that unlocks access to your money. It can easily be revoked by the bank, gives them full view into your entire life (or at least the parts you pay for), and makes recurring payments really easy. And yet most people don't go around with chequebooks or wads of cash

I've been a software engineer for 17 years and even I can't wrap my head around the UX of this. It's totally dead in the water until something changes.

The browser lock-in issue is why I’ve held off using Passkeys so far. I was waiting for 1Password’s implementation to allow me so independence. Being tied to Safari or Chrome seemed worse than being tied to a cross platform password manager.

That being said, I don’t like the “magic” aspect of them. I want to be able to see what I can only assume is a private key. I want to be able to move it somewhere if I need to. I won’t willing start using Passkeys until I know I can move them around. I have online accounts that are nearly 20 years old. Any solution for password management needs to be very future proof, and I’m not seeing the flexibility in Passkeys today (from my admittedly quick look).

I realize that flexibility can create some risk, but there has to be some middle ground somewhere.

What happens if I have an account on website or soo A and it was created using passkey which was by Apple and Apple closed/disables my account for some reason?

For an end user - beyond the technical bells and whistles — it’s kind of same as Signin with Apple ID, isn’t it? Or Signin will Google. Right?

Besides this is going to create huge lock-ins and dependencies I am afraid. And that part of it looks bleak — all the mega corps are pushing and none of them are known for “openness”. They want to get as many as of us in their yards and then things will start to get less open very soon.

I mean if I have a passkey on Apple and I am with a device that’s not Apple I am not really sure how that’ll work and I may not be able to access my account, or do it easily.

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