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Comment by gottorf | Hacker News Reader

I dunno, I believe in hardwiring things where you can. Stuff in an immobile structure like a house can and should remain actual wire.

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Right? Light switches work when the microwave is on, when the light is a long way from the switch, or whatever inevitable gremlins find their way in. When you're talking about something that needs to just work Keep It Simple, Stupid!

A few bucks in house wiring is nothing over the lifetime of the structure. Do it right.

Where are you getting the "few bucks"? Just the cost of the wire itself? Electricians cost a couple hundred bucks an hour. If the answer to that is "just learn how to wire your house yourself" then I'd say that is not a feasible solution for most people. If the answer is "no, I didn't mean rewire an existing house, I meant running wire in a new construction" then I'd say that is not a feasible solution for most people either.

I think it's a few bucks, relative to the cost of a house. If you're paying for an electrician, you probably own the house. Compared to the cost of a house, a one-time visit by an electrician is a small amount.

And running wire in a house as it's being constructed is going to be far less expensive than doing it after the fact. I'd much rather add, for e.g., the ability to charge a car in the garage while the house is getting built, than after.

> Compared to the cost of a house, a one-time visit by an electrician is a small amount

Okay but can you fold the electrician's bill into your home loan ? No ? I thought not. It comes out of your current cash flow. Which might be hand-to-mouth for many people.

Yes. Construction loans include electrical.

Sure, the electrical that you know when you plan the house. But additional work later on too ?

Yes, you can get loans for home renovation if you so choose. Most people would just get in the attic and run the wire though, it's not actually that much work.

You need a power line to the switch and a separate power line to the fixture.

If this is rework or an addition, it's exactly as much work as just running a line between the switch and the fixture.

Perhaps. Both are more than most people want to do. I infer this from the existence of a professional class of electricians.

You need continuous power anyway to allow for app or remote-based control.

It's really nice to be able to use a remote to turn lights on and off from my bed or desk, or use voice control when my hands are full.

Plus, I can have dimmable lights even in locations with a three way switch like a hallway.

Color temperature control is not really possible with hard wired controls either. I'm actually considering replacing all my switches with in-wall remotes.

Those are always nice in the first few years, but then a decade or two and three owners later, the switch is now hardwired to a height that was appropriate for shorter generations, controls some track lighting that isn't commonly used, doesn't support dimmable LEDs, or just plain isn't where you want it, next to the new dining table...

They become the electrical equivalent of tech debt. A few dollars to install, thousands to move or change.

Aside from if you want to physically move a light switch, all the rest of the things you mention are cheap and easy to change.

Not as easy as a wireless switch

I'm actually amazed that we're expected to damage and then repair the walls and ceilings just to move switches, lights and outlets around. Or connect the lights to a 4-wire RGB controller where they were previously connected with just 2 wires. Or run ethernet cables.

Some of this is solved in commercial spaces using modular dropped ceilings, but I never saw that in residential spaces and never anywhere for walls.

I mean, no matter what your walls are made of, you have to physically cut a hole for the switch or outlet to sit in.

Then it becomes buying a whole new wall panel instead of just patching the drywall.

Beyond that, you have the problem of insulation. If your wall isn't a contiguous piece of plaster, it will leak air. Then you have to contend with your insulation material releasing fiberglass fragments or whatever into the room. You also have to deal with some way of fixturing the wall panels to the support structure, or they'll all rattle any time you open a door. You also have to just hope that someone is still making the exact same panels decades after the fact. Most rework is done in houses that are several decades old. I don't think that many building materials suppliers that built my house in the 1920s still exist.

Any sort of modular system will always be more expensive than drywall and plaster. If you want to address all of the problems and make it as good as drywall, no one could afford it.

The electrical system is just as integral to the structure as plumbing or ventilation is. You are not going to be replacing things often, and the effort of patching drywall every decade or so is not that much. If, for some reason, you want to move your outlets every six months, we already have solutions for that. You can put conduit and boxes on the outside of the wall.

All in all, it's an awful lot of trouble and expense to make it very slightly easier to do work you only do every decade or so.

> I mean, no matter what your walls are made of, you have to physically cut a hole for the switch or outlet to sit in.

I don't think so - just have some spare panels with pre-made holes (perhaps off center, so the holes can be positioned more precisely by rotating the panel).

> Then you have to contend with your insulation material releasing fiberglass fragments or whatever into the room.

Hm.. Ok, where I live it's usually going to be concrete on the other side, not insulation material.

> You are not going to be replacing things often

I think the popularity of wirelessly controlled lights and speakers says otherwise. Not to mention various decorations (especially if they require electricity - wall hanged bookshelf with decorative lights, paintings with a light above it, or maybe you simply want to move TV to the other wall). And this would allow renters to customize their apartments much more easily.

It might be that you (possibly also most people?) just change their mind about these kinds of stuff less often.

I grant you that it might end up being pretty expensive because of the mounting structure.

Is there an argument to be made that this could be retro-fitted in older homes to reduce fire risk? Or does fire risk mostly come from outlet wiring?

These days it's about finding the labor and the project time. All those extra runs of wire add up to a lot of expensive time. If you're doing a remodel it's also a lot of wall that doesn't need to get ripped up.

I agree, but why does the wire to the switch have to be 14/2 high voltage? Would it be more economical to run smaller gauge wire to a controller near the receptacle/fixture? Or possibly to a central controller?

> why does the wire to the switch have to be 14/2 high voltage?

That way, it's easy to extend the circuit later if you make modifications to the structure.

More interesting would be if you told us why you think that is.

Why invite complexity when the situation doesn't call for it? Wires are simple, robust, easy to work with and easily understood.

Unless you want to move a switch, or add a new one, or the route is blocked by a post, or you need to RE existing wiring

Sticking a wireless controller onto a wall is a much simpler operation than cutting a hole in the drywall, fishing wire, patching the drywall, and repainting.

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