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Comment by kemiller2002 | Hacker News Reader

kemiller2002

I'll let you in on the secret to finding a job. It's not about your skills really (maybe some), it's about who you know. If you're relying on only your skill to carry you through to finding a job, you're going to have a rough time. It's about who you know. You're looking for a job? Go to meetups, code and coffees, free tech seminars by companies etc. That's your job now. Connect with people on LinkedIn. There are very very few people that are good enough that someone will just hire them on their skills alone. Will you find the "perfect" job that you never want to leave and retire from? In all honesty, probably not, but that doesn't mean it won't lead to the next great opportunity.

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> It's not about your skills really, it's about who you know

I've been hearing people give this advice my entire life, which is about a half century now. It's never been true for me. Roughly half the jobs I've had in my life I've gotten through a referral and the other half I've gotten "cold" by just applying to an open req and being the best candidate that applied.

By FAR the best jobs I've had were the ones where I got in on the strength of my abilities. Every job I've ever worked that I was referred into ended up being a nightmare that I couldn't get out of fast enough.

I've found that jobs through cold applying have been gambles. Sometimes they suck. Sometimes they don't and I get great new connections from them. Getting jobs via connections is way more hit or miss since it's all timing, but every time the job has been great.

I'd say that connections are worth it for increasing your chances of netting a job because they tend to be good jobs since someone you know vetted it. Cold applying is easier to get a job period I think, but the quality in every domain is all over the place. It's a trade off.

> It's never been true for me.

> Roughly half the jobs I've had in my life I've gotten through a referral

Someone needed to know you well enough to make the referral.

> Someone needed to know you well enough to make the referral.

Not true, many companies give incentives to employees if they hire their referral. Why would I need that employee need to know them.

A referral means you vouch for the person. If you blindly refer someone and he or she turns out to be shit, chances are that'll back for you. Who would want that?

> being the best candidate that applied.

Not to burst your bubble but there’s a near 100% chance you’re wrong about this.

Remember that the goal of hiring isn’t to hire the best person who applies.

The goal is to hire somebody who can do the job at the wage that’s offered. The best person might reject an offer or not even get one in the first place.

The goal is definitely to try to hire the best person who applies. A company might not succeed in that and take the second best, or even worse.

If you get a job offer it means that you were the best candidate that was available to the company. I'm cool with that personally, I don't agonise that some rock star may have rejected the role.

Well to be fair, there’s no objective measure of “best” which makes this debate pretty pointless.

But also, why would I want to hire the best? Wouldn’t that mean that I can’t make a decision until I’ve seen all the candidates? Why don’t I simply look for the first that meets the requirements of the job?

> If you get a job offer it means that you were the best candidate that was available to the company

Again, I’ll disagree here. If you get an offer from the company it means that you got an offer from the company. You can tell yourself it was because you were the best available, but probably not true.

You try to hire the best candidate you see. At least that's what I've always tried to do on the other side of the interviewing table...

Same here, and it has almost never been true for me either.

I've had maybe two jobs in my life on the basis of who I knew, and they were both kinda crap. The best ones I got cold on the basis of my ability and presentation.

I get that for some people networking feels like their best shot. I'm socially awkward and find networking stressful. Just shows there are multiple ways to get a good job, but you have to play to your own strengths.

Similar experience here but with one further observation. I honestly have never had to look hard for a job, ending up getting scooped up fairly quickly, so I've spent a bit of time pondering this. For me I believe my superpower in this regard is my attitude, I'm an extremely athletic guy with a squarely type A personality and I've been told I exude "just get stuff done" - people love seeing that shit.

I'm in Canada and it seems like all the good paying jobs are remote for American companies (or would require moving to the states). Do you have any tip for networking when you want a job that is remote or in another location?

For me it was conferences, and after landing one remote US job then through contacts it became the new normal over a decade or so.

> There are very very few people that are good enough that someone will just hire them on their skills alone.

IMO this is wrong, but it's hard to know precisely how wrong, just that people shouldn't be setting their expectations this low. There are tons of college kids entering in from the front of the pipeline who don't have connections or experience. Also I've just known a good number of non-traditional candidates who both have and haven't broken into the industry.

I have no idea how strong (or not) this trend is, but I broke into tech from a nontraditional path without knowing anyone. First job at a local company, so possibly some hometown advantage, but my projects and willingness to learn / being personable / general competence conveyed seemed to be what got me hired there. Second job - different company in a different state, no connections at all. I was hired even though I was fully remote until I moved (I had wanted to move to that city to begin with). Wasn't a huge deal as they are fairly remote friendly and I only go to the office once a week now that I live here, but it was still a disadvantage compared to local applicants.

It is certainly possible that I'm just lucky or good at interviewing, but even if this trend is largely true, I hope that people won't be discouraged from applying to roles they find interesting and think they could be a good fit for just because they don't have any connections.

This one hits the nail on the head. For instance immediately when I started the job search I got a couple referrals from friends. Unfortunately they still didn't work out but I made it the furthest with those, since then I have applied to 150 jobs anywhere from mid level to lead, and a few phone calls here and there but ultimately without those referrals most turn into nothing sandwiches. I'm not a coding god but I do love it and spend a lot of time doing it, and this job market is by far and away harder than when I entered software in 2019, and the pay is much lower than even 2019 pay.

> I entered software in 2019, and the pay is much lower than even 2019 pay.

I've been in the industry for 20 years now and the 2019-2021 market (ie: the pandemic market) is the craziest I've ever seen. You definitely came onto the market at the highest possible point. The only time the hiring market was better was during the 90s dot com boom (or so I'm told. That's before my time.)

Getting a job in the 90s was easier (depending on how you define easier), but none of it was online. There were plenty of open positions, but you had to attend a lot of in-person job fares, send actual paper copies of your resume and cover letters to people in Human Resources, follow-up with phone calls, and show up to interviews in a collared shirt. The job market right now is a lot like after the bust in 00. Everything really sucked for a few years after that

It's also about how one behaves in interviews.

Good first impressions reduce the number of questions and give the other person a sense that you'd be enjoyable to work with. No one wants to work with a "genius" that has poor communication or social skills.

Having people around you who can get you into a first conversation about a new job is indeed a great help.

There is lots of advice around on how to live on a smaller budget. The upside of this is that you won't feel pressured to quickly find something new between jobs.

This is good advice and I need to start taking it. I am one of those rare people who could get hired on skill alone. It's not working anymore, leaving me stuck in a dead-end position.

I think the reduction in that working is because of an over-saturation of people who play buzzword bingo on their resume, LinkedIn, whatever to the point that it's impossible for a hiring manager to really discern who actually has a broad set of skills vs who is just trying to jam noise in the signal.

That's probably where social connections come in because it at least provides a verification layer of "yeah X actually does know how to do A, B, and C we should get them into the hiring pipeline"

I agree, if he has been working since 2011 he should know a lot of ppl? He never worked in a team and can grab them on discord, phone, sms, text, skype, email, blog comment, instagram , snapchat, github account and see if they are looking where they are working now? Asking OP.

Grab them on Discord? I don't think I have anyone from my past 20 years of career on Discord... Is that a thing nowadays?

phone, sms, text, skype, email, blog comment, instagram , snapchat, github account whatever man you know what I MEAN FFS

Whatever YOU use to COMMUNICATE with your FREINDS

But yes Discord has been a thing for me for since Im a GAMER. This is contacting techs who Ive worked with working for big companies and they can talk up to their boss etc

> whatever man you know what I MEAN FFS

No, I don't know what you mean, it's good to have clear communication through text media hence why I asked if that was a thing nowadays, I'm not in touch with the expectations from the younger generation growing up with Discord.

I've had team buildings that were gaming (light stuff, like Among Us), and used Discord for audio chat, so yeah.

I just moved to Canada about 2 years ago, so yes, I do have a giant network back home, but hardly anyone in the west. Trying to figure that here as well now.

This is great advice for ICs but I've never really understood how to leverage networking in management – most of time the person I know in a company is already doing my job!

Network one or two levels above where you want to be

Guess I better improve my golf swing then

I dont know anyone with recruiting responsibilities. I potentially onow people who might be asked to recommend, but how to get to that point where you're shortlisted?

How does this help if you're a terrivle interviewer (like me)? IMO interviewing is the #1 skill to have and yes, networking is important too.

How do you use linkedin effectively?

i’ve been sending 3-4 line connection attempts based on their profile but have not had luck

is there a playbook to market onesself?

I loved this advice enough to save it. Might have value, check it out. Network like your life depends on it and have no shame in flexing your network. Talk to as many folks as you can.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37983867

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37990707

Courtesy u/Mandatum

Does a linked in premium membership if some kind help with that?

I tried premium when I really needed a job. As far as I can see it gave you access to a community of people who spent far too much time posting about getting a job and not enough time actually trying to get one. I found a job outside of linked in, as usual, and cancelled premium.

Maybe others have a more positive experience.

Where do you typically find out about local meetups, events, etc.?

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