Comment by vidarh | Hacker News Reader

Comment by vidarh | Hacker News Reader

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> enables them to have the government programs and society they currently enjoy, rather than mistakenly thinking those programs are the source of their wealth.

The person you replied to didn't seem to imply they were, but conversely asked why the US is performing as it is given its wealth compared to Norway.

Average salaries in the US are far higher than in Norway, and GDP per capita, so you would think the US could afford to do better on more metrics

I'll also note that many of the largest welfare reforms in Norway predate the oil wealth, with the largest chunk of the reforms towards the current welfare model being passed in 1966, a year before the first successful oil well in Norwegian sector.

Yet while some things are probably better in the US (average house sizes are larger, I think), as someone who grew up in Norway and has visited the US many times and enjoys being in the US as a visitor, and currently lives in the UK, the UK is as far towards "American conditions" I can stomach. Dysfunctional but at least still has somewhat functioning public services. Why can't the US even match UK public services? The US is certainly significantly richer than the UK.

"Amerikanske tilstander" - "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters.

Even a lot of conservative voters have historically been worried about "American conditions" because it has a history of being seen as lacking - ironically given far higher levels of faith in the US - in Christian compassion, which has made it unpopular even far into the Norwegian right-wing (e.g. quite a few Norwegian welfare reforms were passed in the 1960s under a center-right government that included the four center-right and right-wing parties of the time)

> "American conditions" - is a term with decades of use in Norwegian politics to scare voters.

Neat, I always enjoy learning about the various bits of propaganda and stereotypes that exist in different cultures and this was a new term for me.

I've many times had fairly entertaining conversations with Scandinavians about what life in the US is actually like compared to their expectations. They always seem a bit in disbelief at how safe, comfortable, easy and secure life is in reality. I've learned to reassure them that things would be different if I were an entry level worker at Walmart or McDonald's, and that that life might look more similar to their expectations.

Having spent enough time in the US that the immigration officials used to flick through my passport in disbelief at the number of US stamps I had in there, I think the disbelief is entirely justified because our concern is not what life is like as someone in a good job, but what society is like somewhere with the huge disparities and huge gaps in social safety nets that are there in the US, and I've seen enough of the outcome of that first hand to know I have no desire to live in American conditions even if my job experience means I'd personally have a safe, comfortable, easy and secure life.

>what society is like somewhere with the huge disparities and huge gaps in social safety nets that are there in the US

True, in US you have to work to earn a living.

And this is why we don't want American conditions.

Work does not guarantee a decent living. There are many who work full-time low paying jobs. Many even need a second job to just to "earn a living"

As a European, it is really strange to see this attitude of "survival of the fittest" here on HN

The average HN reader probably works in an office with a decent salary. Why should we deserve better health care than people doing hard physical labor and have to retire early because their bodies are broken. The society is depending on them to function, so we could at least offer them adequate health care. Someone working in a factory or delivering your Amazon packages also work hard. Much harder than what I do.

The lack of humanity in one of the most religious countries in the western world surprises me.

The same can be said about humane treatment of prisoners. Abuse and rape in prisons have become standard jokes in American comedy. I guess they deserve it when they dare to steal your car...

You don't deserve goods or services. You pay for them, or others pay for them if you live in a welfare state and you don't work. Either way, the doctor needs the money to buy food.

> They always seem a bit in disbelief at how safe, comfortable, easy and secure life is in reality

The US is by no means unique in this regard. Outside of active conflict zones and failed/failing states, most countries in the world can provide comfort and at least the illusion of safety to those with resources and means.

It's certainly remarkable that countries exist with cheap affordable health care for all, unemployment safety nets, disability support, and no fear of school shootings at all.

To late to edit, so let me add to this here: Out of curiosity, I decided to do a search in the Norwegian National Library (nb.no, a lot of material requires VPN if you're from a non-Norwegian IP, and of course most material is in Norwegian) for "Amerikanske tilstander" to see if I remember it correctly and if I could find where it started, and of 8640 hits in Norwegian newspapers, some observations and examples:

* The very first one coming up in a simple search was a letter in Dagbladet, then as now a major daily newspaper, August 27 1927, and funnily enough given the subject of this article, the first use of "amerikanske tilstander" there was in a letter to the editor where a Norwegian author warned that as "the power of capital was evolving" we were on our way to get American conditions. He goes on to complain about the spread of "inferior" lowbrow magazines and rant about popular literature.

* In the 1930's there were just a few dozen uses of the term - one paper has the headline "One Murder Per Day" with the subtitle "American conditions in Finland", in 1932 another writes about American conditions in Paris where apparently masked bandits were roaming the streets.

* An interesting one given the US mythology around Ford's impact on the 8 hour working day is an article in "Smaalenens Social Democrat", a left-leaning paper with "American Conditions." in big letters with the subtitle "The 'Fordian system' is hell for the workers" that goes on to describe conditions in Ford factories in excruciating detail, and what was "hell" to a left-leaning 1930's Nordic paper would not seem that out of place if you claimed it was Amazon or Tesla today... Workers rights and welfare became an increasing reason for invoking American conditions in later decades.

* Only one 1930's mention that I could find described an American condition that would be seen positively by many today (thought the writer meant it negatively): Better economic outcomes for women in divorce cases.

The big increase came in subsequent decades:

From 8 in the 1940s, to 60 in the '50s, 378 in the '60s, 766 in the 70's, 1722 in the '80s, 1923 in the '90s, 2038 in the '00s, before a drop to 1230 in the 10's.

That is incredibly interesting - thanks for the research!

The cultural differences have persisted for a long time. But over time, they are progressing to their more extreme conclusions (in the US).

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