Eurostar Amsterdam to London trains cancelled for six months | Hacker News Reader

Eurostar Amsterdam to London trains cancelled for six months

independent.co.uk

47 pointsjatwork60 comments

This is because of customs and border controls required by the UK, which needs a large separated and secured section inside the train station. Trains to other European destinations don't need any of that. Note that this direct route with border controls in Amsterdam has only been available since 2020. Before that all the checks were done in Brussels, a situation that they will revert to during the six months of refurbishment.

Dramatic Headline. Only the direct trains will stop. The majority of the Amsterdam to London trains already involved a change in Brussels, where they do have a large and chaotic border control area for onward travel to London. These will still be running.

Eurostar wanted to change this to allow direct trains from Amsterdam around the time of the pandemic, but they always struggled for space. I suppose this construction will result in a definitive solution.

I always thought the eurostar was a great demonstration how not to do it.

Shitty trains (compared to e.g. the ICE, TGV or Thalys), the stupid border control/security requirements with huge queues which meant you had to be there >45min early, they even mimicked lounges from airline travel. It's like because they wanted to compete with air travel across the channel, they thought "how can we make train travel the most like air travel" adopting most of the stupid things. I half expect them to build a separate train station next, somewhere in the middle of nowhere with extra expensive public transport connections.

They already did that; in France we have e.g. "Valence TGV" which is a secondary train station far from anything, whereas Valence already has a train station in the city center.

All other major cities have the same thing now.

Depends what you call major. Nantes and Rennes don't have external train stations.

Most of what you describe is not because they want to make train travel like air travel, but because the UK never signed the Schengen Agreement (so they need to check and stamp passports) and because of Brexit (so they need to inspect baggage for import/exports), unlike train routes between other EU/Schengen destinations.

I didn't notice a change in baggage inspections. The inspection occurs when you leave the terminal in London, but that's not blocking, like in airports, you just walk through unless you are one of the few unlucky ones. In 15 years it only happened to me once, and that was before Brexit (they mostly search for drugs and other illegal products).

"Refurbishment of Centraal station in the Dutch capital is responsible for the closure."

Seems like they just won't be able to handle the capacity of too many visitors at once with the construction. Hopefully will help set the station up for continued success in the future!

Because Great Britain is not part of the Schengen customs zone, customs checks are required before boarding the train (this is the only train at the station with such checks). Due to the renovation, the part of the station where passport and baggage checks by customs officers were performed is to close down && turns out there's not enough space at the station to house temporary border checks, so... no train.

Why do custom checks happen in NL on the ground, and not on-train? The train still goes through Belgium(at least), where no customs checks would be required

Where on the train would you have place to perform this exactly?

If it's just a passport check they're after, that's fairly easy (though there's always potential for somebody to duck into a restroom or similar).

Customs declarations are usually made at the entry-point (at least with international air travel) - but I don't know how trains do that today (all my train travel was Schengen zone in the late 90s - just passport checks on the train, and only between some countries).

Passport/visa check are easy if they're all ok. But what do you do if you have (a group of) people in the train without valid passports/visas?

international customs checks on the train you mean? where do they do that?

if i'm getting you correctly, it sounds logistically WAY harder. authorities on every train for a start, then not missing anyone, then when someone shouldn't be allowed to pass customs they're already on the train so you can't kick them off, etc.

They do that everywhere else for international trains

> everywhere else

that's my question, where?

the only places I've done that were between countries with very special travel relationships, e.g. schengen. you can travel those countries without a passport and often no border check at all, it's not the same as uk-netherlands

Pre-Ukraine situation there used to be a train between Helsinki (Finland) and St Petersburg (Russia) that did this: border checks on a high-speed train. Definitely some of the more serious checks and visa requirements on that border as well.

Especially eastern Europe. And it used to be done all across Europe before Schengen.

It's still done even within Schengen, e.g. last year I took an overnight train from Vienna to Amsterdam, a trip entirely within Schengen.

German police boarded the train at the first station in Germany and walked the train to check everyone's passport.

That's what they used to do before Schengen. I remember doing interrail when I was young and customs officers coming through the trains checking passports.

My experience with international trains between the US and Canada is that the customs checks happen on the train.

Everywhere? This is the first I've heard of customs checks on trains in Europe at the point of disembarkation. I've been on plenty of cross-border trains where police walk the length of the train and check everyone's passport once it's over the border.

Why would failing a customs check cause you to be kicked off the train? Either your goods will be confiscated, or you'll be arrested etc.

They also check for your being legally allowed into the UK. If you don’t have a visa, they don’t let you through.

> Why would failing a customs check cause you to be kicked off the train? Either your goods will be confiscated, or you'll be arrested etc.

It's easier for everyone if you deny entry rather than prosecuting for unlawful entry. If you can kick people off while they're still in a country they are presumed to be in lawfully, they can figure out their documents and come back later. If you arrest them in the destination country, they've got to figure that all out from immigration detention.

You're conflating customs with immigration.

When you take a train from e.g. the Netherlands to Germany you're already within Schengen at the point of disembarkation.

The police might check your passport details, but you won't be "deported" back over the border you just crossed.

You might be deported from Schengen in its entirety, but then the fact that you just crossed a border isn't important, but e.g. that you overstayed a Schengen visa.

In cases where there is a border with a non-Schenhen country in Europe the train will stop approximately at the border, and you might be refused entry.

But for e.g. Austria to Germany the German police might board at the first German station after the bonder, and then walks the train as it's in motion. That's because it's a customs check.

no, this is immigration. it's the netherlands to england, not the same as austria to germany at all, that's the point

> This is the first I've heard of customs checks on trains in Europe at the point of disembarkation.

The checks are at the point of embarkation before you get on the train. You go through French passport control in London and British passport control in Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam.

I take a train with on-train checks about twice per year. I've seen people sneak past, personally, several times in the past ten years, which implies that they're harder to carry out than if people have to walk through a staffed gate.

Ths UK has this minister who seems to really really really really really not want people sneaking into the UK, not even if it's a handful per year.

The two paragraphs could be causally connected. I don't know.

> Ths UK has this minister who seems to really really really really really not want people sneaking into the UK

You're a braverman than I to say that.

Part of the renovation is increasing the capacity of the Eurostar terminal. From 250 to 600 (a Eurostar train has a capacity of ~800, but the train is rarely full at Amsterdam, as passengers also board at other train stations).

I believe one of the culprits in the decision making was the absence of an escalator further down the platform. It makes sense, passengers dragging their travel luggage via stairs up to the platform is sub optimal…

I have traveled between Amsterdam and London by Eurostar and by plane, and I don't see why anyone would take the train, considering that it takes much longer and also costs much more.

To put some numbers to this, if I were to travel to London on December 13th (a Wednesday), I'm looking at 120 euro for a five hour trip by train. Or I can fly for 76 euro and be there in an hour.

Oh, and the train also requires you to be there an hour early, so you don't get the advantage of showing up late either.

I’ve made this trip by train in the past (changing at Brussels). It is a little slower but you need to consider the time getting to and from the airports.

Unless you’re flying from London City Airport you’re only really saving an hour. The train is far more pleasant.

This was pre-Brexit though when passport control was much faster and I only had to show up half an hour early for the train.

From most of the London airports you can get to central London in about an hour. Add another two hours to be early at the airport. Travel time to the airport (Schiphol) for me is 15 minutes, so totale 4h 15m.

But wait! The train also requires you to be there an hour early (Eurostar actually recommends to be there 90 minutes early), and travel time to Amsterdam is 35 minutes, so the train journey now stands at 6h 35m.

What aspect of the train makes it far more pleasant? Because I don't think I agree with that, not on this particular trip.

I was going city centre to city centre. If I lived near the airport I’d probably have taken the plane instead.

Being on the train is just a lot more relaxed in my experience. It’s much quieter and there are far fewer changes to make.

Having to be there an hour or more early now obviously makes things less convenient on the train than it was for me when I lived in London 15 years ago. I got there half an hour early and it took less than 10 minutes to get through security and passport security.

Last time I flew into Heathrow it took me 40 minutes to get from the plane to Heathrow underground station with no checked bags and no queue at passport control.

It’s probably not as bad flying on a larger plane from London where you get a gate but I’ve spent well over 30 minutes taxiing and waiting for the bus to meet the plane at Schiphol which was about as long as my flight from Norwich.

Now we have to take cheap flights and feel bad…

Or just take a non-Eurostar train to Brussels, do tourist stuff there for a day, and transfer to the Eurostar for the trip home.

You can still go by train, you just have to change at Brussels.

You can still take the train from London to Amsterdam so you only have to feel half as bad.

Is this due to Boris threatening to raid the Dutch for COVID vaccines a few years back?

Such a weird news story. Amsterdam is running a campaign to literally ask British tourists to stay away from the city.

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/03/29/see-amsterdams-ne...

And yet, the Netherlands is investing in their infrastructure to literally unload an even larger volume of tourists straight from London into the very heart of Amsterdam?

What gives? This sounds awfully contradictory.

Not all international travel is party tourism. Both London and Amsterdam are important financial hubs with a lot of business travel between them, as well as popular places to visit for family-friendly reasons.

> Not all international travel is party tourism.

Tourism from Great Britain to Amsterdam is party tourism. They are increasing the volume of tourists they can cart in with a transportation mode that's even cheaper at the expense of taking longer trips. These are not business types. In fact British tourism is already synonym of booze tourism.

Very unfair generalisation.

Not really a generalization. Non-booze British tourists are the exception and not the norm. The country's tourists built a reputation and holiday destinations are reacting accordingly.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/shortcuts/2017/jan/17/fro...

Eurostar would prefer business travellers. It may get its wish when it moves to Amsterdam Zuid station in 2036 (nearer the new business district, farther the stroopwafels).

> Eurostar would prefer business travellers.

Unless they break a few laws to discriminate against people of w certain social makeup right at the gates, what they prefer or not is really not relevant. What matters is who actually tides the trains to get to Amsterdam, and the bulk of this tourism market is not business types but drunkard booze cruisers.

International trains don't just connect the cities at both ends; they connect hubs from where you can travel onwards as well. Besides, the idea is not to discourage tourism completely, just to limit it to sensible levels. For the tourists that do come promoting train travel is very much part of the broader green ambitions in Europe.

Besides, those stag-party and hen-do lads and ladettes come packed in short haul EastJet flights.

A lot of European countries do not permit continued use of rail infrastructure while being serviced as it can be quite dangerous. [1]

Switzerland is an exception to this but it results in extremely complex infrastructure projects with of course a much higher cost and more accidents. However having the infrastructure available in many cases prevents overall economic losses due to less trains etc.

[1] https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/unfaelle-mit-bauzuegen-gleis...

The line itself isn't being serviced, it is the station. UK-bound lines take up excessive space due to Brexit-related security controls, so there isn't enough space for both the security and the construction areas.

They're still running the line from London to Amsterdam, which is why the line is still running and why the trains have to deadhead back.

Nothing to do with Brexit, same thing happened before. It's because the UK wasn't in Schengen and the channel tunnel regulations require security (which is a waste of time, but it's because the tunnel was inaugurated when the IRA bombing campaign was in full flow)

That isnt actually a brexit thing. There always was passport controls as the UK was never part of Schengen.

I am just echoing the article:

  There will not be sufficient space to handle London-bound passengers at the station, given the more intensive post-Brexit formalities.

Not sure about the space intensity of pre- vs post-Brexit controls to fact-check the article.

It's total nonsense. These trains are running now with the same amount of space with no issues - it's only 4 trains a day, with the closest one being 2 hours apart. You can easily check a trains worth of people in 2 hours, brexit or no brexit (and I am sure eurostar would have changed the timings if in some crazy world it did require more than that).

What the article should say is 'given the requirement to do full passport and security checks'.

The only appreciable difference I see a need for a border guard to physically inspect and stamp passports, which I suspect slows things down. I guess EITAS checks in the future too.

Once EES comes into effect the stamps may not be necessary anyway, but much like fusion, it's perpetually 6 months away.

Right, from this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/27/world/europe/eurostar-bre...

The main difference is that pre-2021 UK travellers simply had to show travel documents whereas now they have to get them stamped.

On the surface, it isn't clear to me why that makes much of a difference in service time, but the CEO of Eurostar pointed a finger to these changes in January: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64390979, claiming their trains carry 30% fewer passengers due to station bottlenecks.

And yes, they claim the EES checks should help speed this bottleneck.

The UK was never part of Schengen, but it was part of the single market. So while passport/ID controls have always been performed on the UK border crossings with other EU countries, customs controls had not – until Brexit.

I am not aware that customs controls are made in the passport area, at least not between London and Paris. It is done at the exit of the terminal, in a non blocking way like in UK airports (and always was, they were already looking for illegal products before Brexit).

Nonsense.

"However, it must be taken into account that in most European countries routes are simply closed as soon as construction begins. This is not possible in Switzerland because of the busy rail network. That's why operations in Switzerland continue during construction and renovation work - which poses more risks."

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/unfaelle-mit-bauzuegen-gleis...

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