Who makes the most reliable new cars?
consumerreports.org
consumerreports.org
"It's time to get a new car" given that car safety has drastically improved and I have two younger kids in that thing a few times a week but I'm honestly having a really hard time giving it up, something so reliable and plainly functional.
New cars with all their computers and smart technology only look like expensive repairs to me, whereas if something breaks (again, rare!) on my extremely mechanical 4Runner, it's almost always something simple and relatively cheap.
Glad to see Yodas at the top of this list though, when mine finally kicks the bucket, will confidently get another one I suppose.
One of my favorite Onion articles: "Toyota Recalls 1993 Camry Due To Fact That Owners Really Should Have Bought Something New By Now"
https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Modern high strength steels form the safety cage of the vehicle, and greatly reduce the risk of injury in offset frontal impacts, side impacts, and rear impacts.
And then you have the multitudes of air bags.
Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury.
The presence of high strength steels alone warrants a new vehicle purchase. Vehicles are disposable, people are not.
Combined with the various electronic gizmos and infotainment systems that further increase the risk of injury. :)
- Improved FEM makes modern crumple zones deeper and smoother
- Heavy use of composites dramatically improve the raw amount of energy absorbed by the car instead of the passengers
- Better manufacturing methods mean parts can be shaped/placed to be less likely to enter the cabin
- Better placement of more airbags means you're more likely to hit something soft
- Better seats and better placements of better seat belts means you're less likely to snap something due to whiplash
- Better brakes and steering geometry reduces your chance of losing control
- Better brakes and steering geometry improves your ability to avoid other vehicles
- Electronic stability control _massively_ reduces chances of rollovers
- Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to dodge other cars in emergency maneuvers
- Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to handle bumps and potholes and waves and black ice and other disruptions
- Electronic stability control _massively_ improves the car's ability to go where you point the wheels regardless of speed or condition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control:
> According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic
> Safety Administration and the Insurance
> Institute for Highway Safety in 2004 and 2006
> respectively, one-third of fatal accidents
> could be prevented by the use of the technology
> Additionally, SUVs with stability control are
> involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs
> without the system
> The IIHS study concluded that ESC reduces
> the likelihood of all fatal crashes by
> 43%, fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56%, and
> fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 77–80%.
> ESC is described as the most important advance
> in auto safety
And those numbers are from 2005-ish. Modern active rollover prevention and traction control systems and anti-understeer/oversteer controls are _even better_.
I just checked wikipedia and there is a paucity of info showing actual effectiveness, and some showing what I just mentioned. It's a little suspicious that there is not overwhelmingly positive data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Effec...
1. If you are too fast to squeeze the brake lever, the tire carcass will not deform properly, giving you the the maximum braking potential. There's a large difference in braking performance just grabbing vs. applying in a controlled manner. You can look up motorcycling racing brake application for more info on this.
2. Breaking too hard can cause a stoppie (a wheelie using your front wheel). Done improperly, that creates a lot of fear in the rider.
3.If you lock the brakes and steer, you are likely to have the front end of the motorcycle dip, causing it to lowside.
ABS helps mitigate all 3 of these issues.
ESC in a car for me can be helpful or detrimental depending on the vehicle and the implementation.
I have an old 90's tachoma that doesn't even have antilock brakes. It drives a bit like a car when compared with a modern truck, but the rear will slide out even on gentle curves, in the rain it can slide hundreds of feet when stopping (yah pulse the breaks manually), and its narrow and high meaning they roll over if you look at it wrong. One doesn't feel "safe" in it, and you know to maintain a lot of stopping distance, slow down before curves, and generally drive like a 90 year old. I have a much newer tundra. It is a brick on wheels with magic traction control, and it feels glued to the road because of it. Except it is easy to fail to respect it and discover one is simply going too fast into a turn, or a stoplight/whatever, and the antilock and traction control aren't going to save you. The one significant advantage is that you can steer it into a ditch while panicking rather than ramming it straight into oncoming traffic when that happens.
So, i'm betting in the end, the more aggressive driving the turndra encourages by giving people more of a feeling of being in control negates some of the additional safety. It's like power steering lets tiny women (and men) drive massive trucks/SUVs they wouldn't otherwise drive if they had to crank those huge tires holding all that weight manually.
Perhaps if you compare the same model 15 years ago and now that is true, but people rarely buy the same model used as they would new. At least among my aquitances it is common to consider a higher class used car, or a much cheaper lower class new car. I doubt a 6 years old lexus rx350 is less safe than 2023 Toyota Yaris for example. Two cars of comparable price around here in Central EU.
Ok, but those two vehicles are significantly different sizes regardless of year, are they not? And that’s usually very relevant where safety is concerned.
Maybe there would be less of a difference in a single vehicle collision, but AIUI in a multi vehicle collision size (and relative height) usually matters a lot. So it didn't seem to make their point very well.
Agreed. Although the steels used for safety critical parts of new vehicles are now "ultra-high-strength steels", with tensile strengths exceeding a gigapascal. These can be 4x stronger than "high strength steel", and 6x stronger than steel from the "good ol' days"
e.g.: https://cdn-fastly.thetruthaboutcars.com/media/2022/07/19/92...
Safety between cars, and within cars, has improved. However, due to the increasing size of the average vehicle on the road, among other factors, car safety for pedestrians/cyclists has decreased.
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/26/1184034017/us-pedestrian-deat...
I don't have a level spot with the recommended distance so we went with some tape on the garage door as a reference. We got them a tad low the first time and raised them up a bit. I can still see and apparently everyone else can too because nobody is flashing their lights at us.
Our other vehicle is a 2014 3/4 ton Ram pickup. Nobody ever flashes me in it.
Either way, it’s genius. I don’t know why that isn’t offered in more vehicles.
I wouldn't call them shopping carts either but if you come from the US you might have different size expectations.
That is exactly the purpose and required (or via dashboard electronics) in most vehicles in the EU after a certain date (don't know which exactly and also I do not know the exact rules but every car i've ever owned had those). Automatic is also fine. They are not meant for "Alternative High beam" as what some people use them for.
The "clip" on the rear view mirror is also not meant for looking at your kids in the rear. It's meant to flip the mirror up so the reflection is not by the mirror but by the refractive index of the glass any you see a "dimmed" image of the high beams behind you.
Usually it is supposed to be calibrated so that the highest position is the default no load in the back position, but you can recalibrate so that it is in the middle if you want.
Complete failure of government to regulate and enforce headlight position and brightness.
Since I don’t drive an 8ft tall truck with permanent high beams, I eventually got forced off the road.
In my state the only thing they check is the diagnostics to make sure your car isn’t polluting too much otherwise you can drive around just about anything that starts…
If I’m wrong and their lights are always like that, my assumption is that they would appreciate someone letting them know anyway. If it happens a lot, maybe they’ll figure it out and correct their embarrassing problem.
And if they’ve jerks who know they’re blinding others but just don’t care (or savor it) oh well they should still hear about it.
And I say it is insane because in many, many cases I just have to slow down when encountering those lights coming from the opposite direction, for the sole reason that I get blinded by them and I can't see the road for one, two, God knows how many seconds. It's insane, from a safety perspective, that we're allowing blinding devices out there on the road.
Which is the same pattern as your eyesight gradually degrading. But no, the lights really are blinding everyone. It’s utterly stupid.
What exactly are government safety agencies for exactly, if they can't even sort this obvious problem out?
I guess that's just always happening anyway. Except in a few cities doing proper bike lanes, roads are always getting widened, intersections expanded.
IMO the faster acceleration and heavier weight of electric cars will just lead to much more disastrous accident when people (for example) press on the wrong pedal. Long term the extra deaths are probably balanced out if the more dangerous cars displace enough fuel cars and lower carbon emissions and air pollution... but I wish we regulated acceleration (maybe with a different license category, like we do with trucks?)
It shouldn't be possible to kill someone 10 m in front of your car when leaving from a stop because the manufacturer wants to impress professional car reviewers.
With the roads deserted people went faster and more carelessly. When things recovered and roads got crowded they didn’t tone their driving back down.
I do insurance things. It’s well known in the field.
Want ZERO fatalities? ISOLATE the Pedestrians from the cars entirely. Build it like Disney World does.
If the point was the reduce the flow, why wouldn't you make a roundabout?
Roundabouts have far higher throughput than junctions with traffic lights.
story: An out of state tech visiting our job site greeted us with "What the hell is wrong with the traffic lights in Florida!?" This was SW FL and I was a little confused because he had driven thru one of the most benign counties. I might be conditioned though.
Just north of Tampa is a county where most traffic lights are timed to insure you reach the next one on the yellow. I've traveled thru it regularly for 30 years. Between 20 and 15 years ago it reached ~as bad as possible status and there it remains.
Adding awful to bad are the drivers who've realized they can defeat much of this timing with sufficient speed.
It didn't help that most, maybe all, governmental authorities were improvising their COVID response, some other percentage of people lost their fear/trust in authorities that way.
Ha, societal breakdown indeed...
There's noticeably more serious accidents too, although the data won't be available until mid-2024 to confirm.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_acciden...
Certainly, when I lived there Ireland was a terrible place to bike or walk.
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6c...
Driving culture has changed, at least in this area.
That distraction didn’t exist 25 years ago on the scale it does today. I wish cell phone use penalties would be promoted closer to those of alcohol use while driving.
By opening a window?
This kind of exaggeration undermines any point. An invention as useful as the cell phone was a mistake because people (ab)use it while driving? Any invention is used and abused but the benefits of this invention far outweigh the drawbacks. I'm sure more lives were saved by the mobile phone, and even more were made better, than were taken.
No unga-bunga is speaking here. NixOS-loving Rust-writing software dev. Read some Ted Kaczynski folks.
It doesn’t matter what distractions you remove - ban eating and drinking (even water) while driving, impose ruinous fines for those caught… none of it will work.
You need to address the root cause, not the symptom.
The root cause is unspeakable. You will face extreme repulsion if you choose to openly discuss the root cause in this society because it would mean tough questions for our cultural identity.
Unspeakable, unimaginable, impossible to write in a sentence on HN?
To me the root cause is that 2-ton metal bricks shouldn’t be propelled at 50 kph, much less 140 kph, by tired hairless apes with tired ape reflexes, ape kids in the backseat, listening to other apes on podcasts, or talking even hands free with ape friends or ape spouses.
We were never designed for this. It’s guaranteed to be a leading cause of death and life-changing injury, so long as we keep it up.
Is that unthinkable or unspeakable? I say it on HN all the time.
They're good apes brant
On a more immediate time frame, road engineering can work really well which is why deaths are like 5x lower in places like Holland. Put bends and obstacles in the road and drivers will either have to pay attention or hit them.
Cynical answer: Humans.
Slightly less cynical: Cars.
We've built an environment (in the US, at least) where driving a car is basically a requirement to participate in society. So, people drive, whether they want to or not. And they drive whether they're physically or mentally capable of doing so successfully.
And we're so entrenched in this design that discussion of a change is met with derision and scorn.
The human nature isn’t going away, and although the environmental factors are technically under our control, they’re just getting worse.
The fact that technology only made a pre-existing issue worse does not mean that technology is not the problem.
Maybe faraday cages should be mandated in cars, in addition to rear-facing cameras. :)
Interestingly is to see police officers and transit officers also distracted inside their cars doing the same.
It objectively got worse in my country of origin for example.
The number of drivers using the bike lane outside my house to make illegal passes has also increased. As has the amount of tailgating and excessive use of horns on the same road.
The best thing you can do is drive in a way that even bad drivers expect. Be a speed-limited, blinker-indicating, cautious log in the river. They will parkour around you and you will be fine. Greatly limit your reactions to things. If you freak out, others around you will freak out. Bad drivers cause okay drivers to perform worse. Herd mentality.
(Obvious disclaimer: The best defensive driving in the world won't prevent all accidents)
It's gotten to the point where even defensive driving doesn't do much. How do you defensively drive against someone just blasting through a red light 15 seconds after it turned red and cross traffic is moving steadily? Or the guy in a lifted truck who decides to force you into the shoulder because he thinks it's funny?
Probably upgrading to a tank at some point. Or bringing a gun. Or bribe politicians, that they urge the police to focus on maintaining sanity on the roads and take away the licence(and at some point the cars) from those drivers eagerly.
Honestly, if I can, I drive a bicycle, even now in wintertime. But I often indeed wished for a gun, to bring awareness to my fragile self. To express, that I also have rights on the road, despite being lighter. But I am aware, this might not be the best solution overall.
Meanwhile there is a million equally bad drivers out there. We can't be doing "a purge" every weekend. It's either policing, or self-driving cars. I am looking forward to the latter.
But till they are there, policing is the only other option to self justice (aside from changing the road environment like the sibling commentor mentioned). There are drivers who intentionally drive close to cyclists - if one of those will have his tyre shot (without him then crashing into other bystanders, or crashing at all) he likely will have some respect in the future. He also might invest into a bulletproof design, further escalating the whole thing, so like I said, I am not advocating for road warfare. Just expressing my anger.
It's counter intuitive on one level, but making the road feel less like a racetrack causes most drivers to slow down and treat it less like one:
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/11/8/public-health-...
Of course car lobby makes it sound like impossible task because of "think about all the edge cases" while even making the most crude system would save tens of thousands of lives and hundred of thousands of injuries per year.
As it is we can even force car manufacturers to implement max 140km/h speed limit in cars even though driving faster than that is criminal level behavior and illegal about anywhere in the world. Like we can't even force them to make the least controversial safety check imaginable already written into law because "driving a car fast boost my ego and you are not taking away my freedom to do so".
Drive an older car from the '90s with a mechanical throttle adjusting a mechanical throttle body and you'll realize that it barely responds until the pedal's about halfway down. Drive a newer car and you'll realize that it's already putting nearly half throttle through the electronic throttle body when the drive by wire pedal is a tenth of the way down. The brakes react like this too, which is a completely difference annoyance. It's a result of manufacturers gaming for fuel efficiency regulations and it manipulates the way people drive into being more aggressive with their acceleration.
For decades never needed speed limiters aside from the gentleman's agreement of 155MPH over tire safety reasons because most people couldn't get above 90MPH, and most cars didn't want to go above 45MPH without stomping on it. Since the early 1990s as a side effect of emissions regulations making engines much more efficient cars have doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled their power output. A 1995 Chevrolet Lumina made 210HP from a 3.8L V6 at the very top of the rev range, meaning for most driving you were at 150HP or less. Right now you can go and buy a low trim Chevrolet Blazer with a 3.6L V6 that makes 305HP about a third of the way up with a flat horsepower curve from there. Just holding speed without accelerating you're at peak horsepower in the Blazer and it feels that way.
https://youtu.be/r11j5yo8BhM?si=NnDDZtmiyNAHkqvQ
This neighborhood has brutal speed bumps with a warning sign on a 30mph road. This double bump just hammers cars.
Couldn't they find a more silent way to slow down cars?
Making the corner tighter helps solve this.
I walk to work in the suburbs. I have to cross a 6 lane highway. It's signaled properly. But the one thing that nearly kills me every few months the road has very smooth radius corners. Drivers can easily carry 40mph through the corners. Between red-on-red being legal, right-on-green-even-though-pedestrians-crossing-is-active, and generally driver fuckery, I'm amazed nobody has been killed at this intersection.
The only thing narrow streets and turns do is make it harder for parents to check for oncoming traffic before crossing. No amount of "traffic calming" will protect us from these rotten drivers. We need at least a modicum of enforcement.
Some of us have children, and some of us will hopefully always going to have children, so sorry, but we won't go away with our safety concerns as death on the road is the number one safety issue in everyday life.
At what point did we lose our ability to enforce our own desires through violence? The one real tool we have for making any tangible change, just stripped away from us at some point.
You can even today join a gang or the mafia, you will find that this is still a very common use case.
If you do, you might also find out that it's not a lifestyle anyone wants, thus realizing why most of civilized society doesn't work that way.
Dueling, boxing, and so on used to be common among the upper crust. I still get into fights with some of my immigrant friends whenever we reach some total impasse on conflict. We're all civilized, educated, and generally good people. But violence always seems to be the quickest way towards a resolution to certain problems, where simple communication will not do.
Judging by reports of violent crime, it would be a stretch to say that the “right” to exercise violence when your individual will is otherwise thwarted is very much still possible. I mean if someone wants to gun down their Amazon HR person or manager, there is little to stop them. It won’t end well for anyone though.
Ticketing dropped. Also the quality of policing in general (and officers specifically) improved dramatically. We had way better cops than under the previous sheriff.
No longer bothering to turn off long beam headlights, when there is oncoming traffic. And with the new bright led lights, the long beams are really bright.
Sometimes even the low beam lights feel too bright, especially if the oncoming car is big, and thus has its headlights sitting higher up.
https://www.resources.org/common-resources/how-much-do-regul...
Increasing fuel efficiency standards has outsized impact on the price of small cars, so fewer of them are made.
Anecdotally, I have personally heard many people say they want to sit up higher, or have a bigger vehicle because it is safer for them.
That's true to a point. In the US there are regulatory loopholes for SUVs, so that's impacting what vehicles people choose.
I agree that fuel efficiency standards are pretty silly. Especially CAFE standards. They should just tax CO2 emissions (or fuel) directly, and let the market sort it out.
Perhaps also have a tax on the weight of the vehicle, because that's a negative externality: heavier cars are worse for other people in a crash.
But the US is a country that has effectively legalised running over cyclists, so I don't have much hope for them. See https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-t...
It's similar to house prices. The more regulations you pile on, the more things cost. While those things are seen as "good", it removes choice and increases cost.
I don't think that in isolation people broadly prefer bigger vehicles, but in the context of other people having bigger vehicles, a circular problem exists, with people feeling like they're in ever increasing danger behind the wheel if they have a small car but are surrounded by behemoths. If it weren't contextually dependent, I don't think it would be a relatively recent phenomenon, since big vehicles have always been available, and I think you'd see people getting large vehicles despite what's common around them, in terms of both geography and what's on the road. I'd prefer a larger vehicle if I was driving around polar bear country, and I think every other car on the road in North America is a metaphorical polar bear.
Given the choice between a $35k sedan and a $40k SUV the choice is going to be SUV for most people.
Given the choice between a $15k sedan and a $40k SUV, it gets a lot more interesting.
The US car market is incredibly restricted. You can buy a 300 mile range electric sedan for $25k in China. Why the fuck can’t we get that in North America?
Bare bones 300 mile cars like the BYD Dolphin cost $16.9k.
They also have a model called the Seagull that is 250 mile at ~$11k. I would buy either of those in cash, today, if I could.
- 1991 Ford Ranger 2WD
- 2016 Toyota Tacoma TRD OR (4WD + extra features)
The Tacoma is Toyota's smallest North American truck and is dramatically larger than the Ranger. The Ranger suited my needs perfectly except that it wasn't 4WD and would frequently get stuck in Canadian winter. I couldn't even buy good snow tires for it anymore because the rims were too small.
If there were a recently built 4WD truck available in the North American market that was the size of the 91 Ranger, I would have bought it in a heartbeat. It does not exist.
When CAFE standards specifically carve out an exception for larger vehicles (pickups and SUVs), thus forcing only compacts and sedans and station wagons to be subject to the new standards, of course there's some price pressure that nudges people into bigger cars.
If CAFE was applied across the board, there'd be no impact on choice at all. But it's not.
They are buying it because they like bigger cars, and the people that can’t afford bigger cars still want to sit up higher, hence the popularity of CRV/Rav4 type vehicles.
Yes, there are (largely misguided but in some senses game-theory justified) preferences for higher/larger/heavier vehicles. But from what I've read, these don't provide much (statistical) explanatory power for the actual numbers.
Modern cars with huge pillars feel absolutely claustrophobic especially compared to those with wraparound windshields which were common mid-century.
Those standards are pretty silly, even without the loopholes. They should just tax CO2 emissions (or petrol), and let the market sort it out.
There's some formula between overall car area (the literal length x width of the vehicle) and the allowed mpg for the automaker's corporate fuel economy. Yay for second order effects...
Well, every economist (or anyone with half-a-brain) could have predicted these effects.
Because wankers gonna wank.
And the Tacoma is dwarfed by the larger pickups on the road. It's wild.
The Corolla? I don't think half of them would even have noticed if they ran it over.
Anyway - point being, I don't think we are anywhere near getting caught up in the giant car fad. Not yet, anyway.
Oh we definitely are, it’s nowhere near as bad as in the US yet because they are decades ahead in that mess, but around here mid-size and light-duty full-size are becoming more and more common.
They functionally didn’t exist a few years ago, nowadays it’s a good days when I don’t see one. And that’s not including the few I know of parked in driveways on the drive to work.
Many Europeans are bathed in US media. They see the huge cars constantly on US footage, and some are inclined to purchase these even if they are impractical in EU towns and cities. As these behemoths are introduced in the traffic mix, others in classic smaller cars feel threathened, and their next purchase will be a big tanky SUV to feel less vulnerable.
It self-reinforces from there.
in parts of Europe, vigilante groups are deflating tires of SUVs to discourage people from contributing to this trend. Not that I endorse the practice but it's interesting to consider how unimaginable something like this would be to Americans. Whereas in Europe people can probably at least understand why they're doing what they're doing
If you want people to drive better, don't put airbags in their steering wheel, put a 6" metal spike pointed at their chest.
You still get concussions, and plenty of blood in rugby, but more serious amounts of concussions in grid iron because of all the excess padding.
People are more likely to charge head first with a helmet, and the helmet doesn't protect your brain from rattling about.
Are you saying that in Grid Iron there are no concussions? Hate to break it to you, but they are fairly common even before they broadened the definition last year.
Or are you saying that no player ever does a foul, or an illegal tackle?
If so, I'll link you to YouTube clips that disagrees with you.
They are constantly researching helmets and trying to reduce the chances of concussion, but ultimately wearing of a helmet introduces a risk factor, in the same way that that bigger cars make people feel safer so drive more dangerously.
It wasn't this study:
An Evidence Based Review: Efficacy of Safety Helmets in Reduction of Head Injuries in Recreational Skiers and Snowboarders (2012)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3989528/
from Trauma & Acute Care which concluded:
* The use of safety helmets clearly decreases the risk and severity of head injuries as compared to non-helmeted participants in skiing and snowboarding.
* The beneficial effects of helmets are not negated by unintended risks as their use does not appear to increase the risk of neck or cervical spine injury as compared to non-helmeted participants in skiing and snowboarding.
* The use of safety helmets also does not appear to increase the risk of compensation behavior as compared to non-helmeted participants in skiing and snowboarding.
* Therefore, helmets are strongly recommended during recreational skiing and snowboarding.
I mean, sure, there are BMJ Sports Medicine Opinion Pieces by Dr Paul McCrory who was prolific with his thoughts on the matter but short on evidence, not to mention that whole, ummm, thing:
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/56/23/1327
(The investigation into his extensive single author pieces).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3989528/
> Helmets do not appear to increase the risk compensation behavior among skiers and snowboarders.
Nor has it been proven with a bunch of other activities
> Convincing evidence in support of the risk compensation hypothesis has not been seen with the use of the face-shield in ice-hockey, motor vehicle seat belt use and motorcycle helmet use.
Though the data isn’t the best but what we do have does not seem to support that hypothesis.
Cars without breakable steering column were pretty much this, so everyone had this before ~1990. Yet, deaths in traffic have steadily decreased since then.
We just pretend, that we care about environment untill we start speaking about our safety.
It's also decreased for anyone NOT willing to buy a "light truck" (e.g. a modern SUV). There's a loophole that makes it so that light trucks don't have to be tested against the same safety standards as other vehicles. Basically they just have to prove they're safe to crash into other light trucks but do not have to be tested against regular passenger vehicles. This loophole is credited as one of the main reasons car fatalities have been rapidly growing in the US but falling in most other nations. And also for the massive recent explosion in size (again, mainly observed in the US).
But size is just one factor that's reduced safety. Another one is reduced visibility. One of the contributors to the rise in fatalities has been due to parents literally running over their own children in their driveways. These are low-speed, suburban vehicle fatalities that are not happening in other countries
Side note, the Wikipedia page has a section about how SUVs get away with less stringent emissions standards
My saving grace was that the truck was so light that even at age five I managed to survive being crushed under one of the wheels thanks to my aluminum frame bike wrapping around my ribcage. Even a modern-day Tacoma is much larger and probably would have killed me.
A few years back, I had a late model Mercedes GLS, and the damn thing was in the shop almost every other month, and each time it was at least $300-400. Mostly it was electronic components that were at fault; an error in the anti-theft system which cost me $2000 was too much to bear, and I sold the car at a loss...
2005 9-3 Linear here. I wish minor repairs were that cheap. Wait until you need your water pump replaced ;) Get ready to squick hard at the required labor charges (water pump is integral to the engine IIRC, requiring the engine to be pulled.)
Right now I need new spark plugs, injectors, and a turbo replaced, and a grounding strap issue somewhere I haven't been able to isolate. Gonna run me a small bit of change.
As someone who owned a Saabaru, many 4 figure shop quotes become a weekend and <$100 in parts. Just depends on if you have the time and space to DIY.
1. In the world of Honda S2000's, all other things being equal the 2004-05 models command a premium over the 00-03 and 06-09 model years.
2. My wife (2022 Prius) sighs when she sees how attached I am to my 2008 CR-V. It has 220K miles and I'd be happy to drive it another 220K.
FBOW however, the increasing demands of Fuel Economy and emissions standards led to a lot of poorly-executed moves for various companies from a reliability standpoint; Sometimes it's dual clutch transmissions or CVTs, sometimes it's stuff like cylinder deactivation or a cheaped out Turbo 4 or 3 cylinder design.
And then, all the speeds on an auto in general now. It took a decent amount of time for (most of) the automakers to make a reliable 4 speed auto across their lines. Hondamatic 5 speeds warned of things to come, because first everyone started flipping to 6 speeds (emphasis on the starting bit, in 2006). Then over the next 10-12 years we got all the way from 6 speeds to 10, often without enough size increase budget to know it will all be reliable.
So what they did was first drop their pickup truck and then develop a smooth and efficient 4 cylinder engine mated to traditional transmission to deploy across the fleet, then slowly migrate all of them to a hybrid drive and then finally move to a fleet wide EV architecture. This keeps the fleet average down while also not compromising in other ways like crummy CVTs. (Im not sure if they use deactivation.)
Will it work? well so far their first EV entry didn't fare so well. But they are still on the move to hybrid phase and they make some pretty darn smooth cars these days.
> Their thesis was whats the point of being green if you still are selling gas guzzling hogs and you just sell some garbage EV to offset them.
Ford doesn't do this, but at the same time I find it hilariously suspicious that despite the success of the Maverick, there doesn't seem to be any messaging about increasing capacity. And I say that because even as an early adopter -most- problems have been in the 'I can still drive it' category. And yet they won't increase production.
The 5th Gen Camry was one of the first, if not the first, cars with drive-by-wire throttle.
I'm averaging 20-30% of a new car payment keeping them running and replacing big parts, but I would spend double (maybe lol) that so I can keep the experience. If I had a commute longer than a half hour maybe I'd look into a Prius or Leaf? Just waiting for a cts-v wagon to fall into my lap....
That said this electronics is rock solid, my '08 Civic Type-R is basically pristine mechanically and after 15 years only required maintenance of wear parts. The paint job though has time taking its toll, as varnish is peeling off in various places. Still with proper care I expect the car to last another 15 years without breaking a sweat.
legitimately the only major repair I've ever needed is to replace the oil pan and that was my fault. runs like a champ, I literally just got back from driving it about 10 minutes ago.
It looks ugly as sin as over the years people have thrown themselves at the vehicle, including a line down the passenger side where a fedex semi took a left turn too sharply, but it runs beautifully. Part of that is maintenance, of course, but if you treat'em well they'll treat you well.
https://www.theonion.com/ford-unveils-new-car-for-cash-strap...
Same sentiment for my washer/dryer. Bought an older (used) set for $300, They have lasted 7 years so far, which is in addition to however long they were in use before: I would guess at least 7 more.
Seems like lots of people lament how things like cars, refrigerators, washers, etc. are becoming less mechanical and more electronic. Maybe there's a market for "bespoke" mechanical items.
I knew enough to google the symptoms and found someone that would “rebuild” the main circuit board for a flat fee of $250 with about a week to turn around. That’s a fair bit cheaper than the remodel option.
But that got me thinking “if it’s a flat rate, and occasionally something is hard to fix that means most repairs must be trivial or the person wouldn’t be making enough money”. What’s an obvious, easy and cheap circuit board problem? Capacitors.
I had to buy a tester for $150 but I get to keep it. And the bad capacitor it found cost $.08.
Knowing just a little and being willing to learn a little more saved me a considerable amount of time, trouble and money.
I hope the same is true for cars because I have three relatively new ones in the family and we tend to keep them 10-20 years.
This is why you get things like heatable seat DLC.
Seems like there are still reliable appliances to be found, it's just probably that there's more low-quality cheaply made appliances on the market than there used to be, so it used to be easier to get a good one without researching so much...
The only thing that I couldn’t fix on my own in my 2020 vs my 2006 was re-alignment of lane keep system after replacing the windshield.
All of the important sensors have been in cars for years and years at this point.
The worst is software problems. The dealer techs don’t have the tools, training or interest to sift through TSBs and upgrade systems.
I especially love the mid-90s and newer VWs, which will report through VCDS software literally every part failure, or sensor output, from any system in the car.
The reality is more like how Ford has victimized its customers with its EPAS system. That's Electronic Power Assist Steering.
They got rid of the old dead-simple power steering pump and replaced it with a flakey system based around an electronic sensor that is prone to shorting if you look at it funny and can only be replaced along with the entire steering rack that it's attached to...to the tune of thousands of dollars.
You know what's even better than a working CarPlay, the cupholder in my own car that can hold my phone in a nicely visible spot.
> The bells and whistles are mostly for creatures comfort.
This is increasingly (and rapidly) less and less true. Traction control, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, and emergency braking, are all things computer controlled (and things that are programmed to disable when the computer barfs. You can argue these are creature comforts, but in my experience they are becoming necessary modern safety features.
In a previous car, the sound system wigged out completely when it was only 5 years old. That’s a creature comfort, except really annoying to go without, and it was insanely expensive to replace, several thousands for a pretty basic stereo.
That's why people don't like increasing amount of electronics in cars.
EU recently mandated that all new models have Intelligent Speed Assistance[1].
This requires the car to use GPS, read signs and such to determine the current speed limit, and provide some feedback like a dynamic force on the gas pedal[2].
I got this in my new car, being a model introduced last year, and while it's nice when it works, it's often confused or wrong. And that's when it's operating normally. I already had to replace the gas pedal unit because the force feedback mechanism in it had some issues (would tap the pedal like a light hammer strike at a specific position, repeated around 5 Hz if held at the exact position). Wonder how it'll all hold up down the line.
[1]: https://road-safety-charter.ec.europa.eu/resources-knowledge...
[2]: https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a40543584/anti-s...
As others have mentioned, sensors and stuff related to safety fail all the time. I recently paid $800 to re-enable the safety systems in my (newer) car after a part failed. I've never had such expensive repairs on my 20 year old car.
But that's 18 years old. Give me two more and we can have this convo again.
If anything the Lexus was a bit more, due to how common BMW specialist shops are, while there's none for Lexus.
The issue for me was the frequency of the repairs, 5 years of Lexus ownership cost me less than any 3-4 month period of BMW ownership over the 2 years I owned it.
I suppose I can only compare 2-3 repairs, cause the other dozen repairs for the BMW simply didn't break on the Lexus, nor did it spring any of oil leaks my BMW was famed for.
German and American cars seem to have a very frustrating time with reliable electronics compared to Asian brands for some reason, and the problems persist year after year.
For especially electronic heavy brands, typically higher-end ones the problem can become particularly pronounced, the bottom ranked vehicles on this list are mostly high-end, expensive, and packed full of gear (except for a few). Electric vehicles and PHEVs have the biggest problems being almost entirely electronics.
That car isn't old enough for anything to be breaking yet. It's barely 4 years old. In a 2006 so many basic simple things break like the clip to hold down the center console, the knob on the AC control. Not to mention the suspension, fan on the blower, belts, power window on at least 1 window. And you expect that touchscreen and software to make it?
I am an enthusiast of the entire reliability spectrum of vehicle brands.
There are people on Range Rover forums wondering why their infotainment doesn't work half the time in their brand new SUV, meanwhile when I goggled why my windshield wipers wouldn't turn off in my 97 Tacoma, I found a thread that suggested a wire would wear through in 200-300k miles (which was my mileage).
I owned a BMW 325i that was full of gremlins, then owned the competing Lexus IS350 (with far more features), to double the age and mileage without 1/10th of the issues.
But the control/configuration of mechanical components is now being done from touch panel and if it becomes unresponsive then it’s as good as mechanical component breakdown.
Rumor has it that Toyota will finally unveil a new design for the 2025 model year.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Fifth_generat...
Which I actually like a lot better. The 4Runner is a very old platform. Other than the infortainment system, a rental I coincidentally had a couple years back was basically identical to the fairly poor handling SUV I had for 10+ years.
Bluetooth stereo: that, you could install after-market.
Though, I imagine an AirTag will give you more precise location.
It also has grease fittings on the drivetrain that, if not greased on a regular schedule (read maybe every ~10K miles), will squeak, the mass airflow sensor needs to be cleaned on nearly the same schedule as even tiny amounts of contamination throws it off and the gas mileage will suffer and eventually the 5ZVFE will knock because of it. And because it doesn't have auto tensioners on the belts, they need to be checked and adjusted every 40K or so, etc. Lots of extra maintenance that some of the newer Toyotas don't seem to require. And of course, just about all of the toyota truck/4runners/etc of that era a super sensitive to brake and tire wear issues which turn them into vibration machines if not kept in perfect alignment/wear/etc because apparently the suspension/etc are so lightweight. Plastic headlamp fog is another one.
While yes, things that seem to wear out on other vehicles seem to be designed for the vehicle's life (alternators, wheel bearings, AC, cabin controls, etc).
(ex my 201x 4.6L tundra, which is plugs every 100K, brakes, tires and fluids, oh and hell the battery on that thing even lasted 2x as long as it was labeled for, I just replaced it last year)
Anyway, many of those items can be ignored for a long time if the vehicle is treated like a 20 year old beater. Things like the rear axle seals can leak into the rear drums and largely be missed until someone notices that the rear diff has been run for 100k miles with barely any fluid, and is cooked. The same is true for the valve covers; they seep in the back near the firewall or onto the exhaust manifold. Unless you look for it, there won't be enough oil lost between changes to notice.
We had to do something with the spark coils/plugs last year, but other than that, no repairs except routine maintainance (tires, oil, filters etc).
Amazing vehicle, very sad that Honda initially talked about an EV version and then pivoted to "no more Fit in North America"
But yeah ... I forgive plugs, oil changes, brakes, filters, etc as it's PM that has given my other cars their longevity.
I do think its true that you can no longer be a diy hotrodder for most models because there is so much complexity with timing, emissions, fuel efficiency strategies, variable valve timing etc.
1) Doesn't break
2) Easy to repair
I've had this discussion numerous times over the years and the second meaning, while surprising, seems to come up frequently.
"My Toyanda is ultra reliable"
"So is my 76 Esquinot. It's really easy to fix, <insert reason why>."
When a car makes regular maintenance really easy and/or cheap, it's going to be more likely to never break. My Toyota Prado had the oil filter easily accessible at the top of the engine bay instead of being a PITA deep underneath near the sump, and had a "lip" around the seal to catch oil drips and divert down a hole to a catch line.
Makes me actively angry that this design isn't universal.
I've found most car forums tend to drive the real experts away due to them being full of blowhards. The real experts get tired of getting told by these folks they don't know what they're talking about, and end up creating closed invite only forums to trade info and advice on that the casual shade tree mechanic has no access to. I completely gave up on Rennlist after I asked a question about the turbo control system on the Porsche 951 only to realize many useless replies later that these people didn't even understand the basic theory behind how a turbo works. I answered my own question by bench testing an old junk turbo I bought on eBay and reported back to the forum only to be yelled at for not trusting their 'expert' advice. I've had similar experiences on other forums. Don't even get me started on the internet myths of DOT5 brake fluid that pretty much every forum takes as gospel. Even stacks of research papers and mandatory legal requirements don't keep people from spreading false information. Who needs all that nonsense? I now typically just pick up the phone and talk to experts I have personally worked with.
Please do!
even with expensive gas.
Can be a bit dangerous on slick roads with no weight in the back.
Easy to hit things and people while turning if you're not used to the size, and even if you are.
Parts can be more expensive than one might think.
Couldn't agree more, due to their added size maintaining/operating a Silverado 1500 was similar to maintaining my Lexus. Reliable enough, but bigger tires, brakes, rotors, more fuel, etc.
I was at the Toyota dealership not long ago and the mechanic says, “we’re not supposed to say this, but if you just do basic maintenance these cars will go for 20+ years. No way would I sell this for a new one. They cost too much now.”
It's still relatively safe, at least in terms of passive safety (it has a well engineered crash structure, curtain side impact airbags, etc).
It drinks fuel like a drunk uncle drinks wine at a wedding, burns and leaks a little oil, etc. Fuel is very expensive where I live (currently around $8,3 to the gallon), so that's a thing.
But mostly, modern cars are extremely expensive and just not appealing to me as a driver or as an owner. I'd have to go through a ton of repairs and fuel before I'd break even on a new car, I can probably drive my car for more than a decade still before it gets to that point.
Pair that with Mozilla's Privacy Not Included report[0], pervasive tracking in modern cars and bullshit practices like "heated seats as a subscription", and I'm out.
I'm considering just buying a good shell of a car and have it converted to EV when the time comes to replace the Volvo. An EV conversion is about $30-35k for a professional to plan, build, execute and certify. If I want to buy a car that matches or exceeds the comfort, practicality and joy of my Volvo, I'm looking at $60k+ on the new market, at least.
[0] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/article...
As most people know, Lexus is also Toyota, and I've been driving a fully loaded luxury sedan from 2008 that also gave me no problems I didn't cause.
It had plenty of fancy do-dads (that are pretty standard nowadays), a steering wheel and seat that moved into place upon entry, adaptive headlights that swivel and self-level, heated/ventilated seats, backup camera and infotainment, etc.
Only time I thought it was acting up (error with the self-levelling headlights), I discovered something had bashed the entire sensor bracket off the undercarriage. Replacing the bracket fixed it immediately.
It made it to 280,000km (175k miles) before a red-light runner wrote it off, and it went to the scrapyard without even the check engine light on.
Meanwhile the equivalent BMW fell apart on me in half that mileage, and hell, so did an F150 actually (and it was as basic as could be!)
That's a key point. Reliability might be good these days, but long-term repairability is very low.
It's come to the point that even a mind-dumbingly trivial change like changing a brake light bulb or a battery can't be done (on a BMW, surely many other brands) without access to factory repair computers.
So when the factory stops supporting your particular model, what then?
I firmly believe that a century from now we'll still have historical cars from the 1950s-60s running around, but surviving cars from the 2020s will be extremely rare, since they can't be repaired beyond factory support.
If you can legally buy one. In the near future you might not be able to transfer ownership over on older cars because of their "emissions" and new state or federal restrictions
> Then the brand reliability score was calculated by averaging results from 2021 to 2023.
As someone who usually buys ~10 year old cars and drives them into the ground I'm much more interested in long term reliability. It may correlate but these stats are not that!
> CR ranks the brands and reveals how their new models are likely to hold up
Literally the title and subtitle of the article, as well as the HN submission.
A less biased review would also include years 3-7 at least, but perhaps up to 10.
It seems absurd to me to expect company culture not to change much over 10-15 years.
That's a much simpler list:
1: Toyota Corolla
2 to end: you're not really serious about running it into the ground. :)
> With the Corolla you just might just have to decide when you've had enough of driving the damned thing.
I've got a 95 Honda Civic with a bit over 200k. And the prospect of having to finally change out the belts is making me decide it's probably time to call it quits.
But honestly, I don't think I'd go for Corolla because it has too much longevity at this point. It'd be like buying a gas-powered parrot.
> There are interesting insights with the reliability of electrified models this year. Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE). Some standouts include the Lexus UX and NX Hybrid and the Toyota Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, and RAV4 Hybrid.
> Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) are more of a mixed bag. As a category, they have 146 percent more problems than ICE vehicles. Several PHEVs are even less reliable than their conventional counterparts, such as the below-average Audi Q5 and Chrysler Pacifica. The latter has the lowest score in our survey, at 14.
> Electric cars and electric SUVs don’t fare much better, with average reliability scores of 44 and 43, respectively. At the bottom of our vehicle-type rankings are electric pickup trucks, with an average score of 30.
The question should be, for a particular make, are hybrids more reliable than ICEs?
In any case, on the much higher bar of running a car into the ground I think the Prius would get priced out on repairs for the last 20% of the run time. You've got both the regular battery and the hybrid battery, the regenerative braking system, and probably a lot more little dingles and dangles that would cause arguments with a spouse if you dug your heels in and kept paying for them just to run the car all the way to the finish line.
With the Corolla you just might just have to decide when you've had enough of driving the damned thing.
If simplicity was the only way to make something reliable we would have rickshaws rather than cars.
- ICE, which charges battery in stable cycle
- E-motor do all torque
So, you don't need transmission, and ICE has way less stress, plus regenerative breaks puts way less mechanical stress on the system
Hybrid vehicles have a transmission to drive the wheels from both ICE and electric.
1. Series, where it is fuel -> engine -> battery -> e-motor -> wheels , with regenerative breaking as a second power source to the batteries. These are range-extended vehicles, where a small generator allows both for more range than the small batteries could supply, and the ability to run without electric charging.
2. Parallel, where both systems are driving the wheels through a clutch system. Both systems would be expected to operate at the same rate if both are engaged. This is a motor-assist system, and the majority of road power is supplied by the gasoline engine.
3. Series/Parallel (or Split) where the two systems are mixed using a planetary gear system. Among other things, this allows for gasoline motors to be optimized for efficiency with a specific set of operating conditions, knowing the electric motor can smooth out operation.
4. Plug ins, very similar to series/parallel but where the wheels are now being driven primarily by the electric motor. The e-motor is more powerful and there is significantly more battery, which now can be charged independently. The batteries are still far below a full EV, having only 5-10% of the range available as a "full EV" mode.
All of these systems effectively have a single point of interaction between the gasoline and electric systems - for series it is the batteries, for parallel it is the clutch, for split systems and plug-ins it is the planetary gear system. The difference I suppose is that the series system has a wire connection to the gasoline engine rather than a physical drive connection, so conceptually it seems easier to swap out.
I heard that the Chevy Volt as an example was originally planned to be a series system, but the electric motor simply wasn't capable of providing the highway performance they wanted - so it ultimately shipped as a series-parallel system.
The transmission of a traditional ICE vehicle is a component commonly prone to failure due to reliance on clutches, friction couplings, gear engagements, etc.
Hybrids replace this transmission with one composed of two electric motors and planetary gear sets. One or both of the motors also act as generators. It’s complex, but the highly variable speed of the output shaft is managed almost purely by torque splitting of the planetary gear sets along with routing of electrical energy within the system— no clutches or gear disengaging/reengaging.
And the ICE engine itself has an easier time (often Atkinson cycle) because the electric motors can provide much of the responsiveness to immediate power demands, allowing the ICE to operate in a much less stressful power band.
That is not how most hybrids work. That’s how almost none of them works in fact, although it is how diesel electric works on large vehicles (an electric transmission essentially).
Essentially, it connects the ICE and two different electric motors to the same drive shaft. By spinning the electric motor forwards, backwards or using it as a generator, it can regulate torque going to the wheels for a wide band of RPM. At the same time, torque and RPM coming out of the ICE are kept in a much smaller band.
But yes, the ICE is still directly connected to the wheels.
When her friend passed away, she inherited his 1998 version of the same and has been using it for spares.
Now she's considering selling both, they are classics now so they are actually increasing in value. I'm a bit sad, as I live on the other side of the world and I feel like in my trips home that car is one of the constants in my life. I half expected to inherit it and pass it on to my own children someday.
It’s more that the ground is much closer for other makes!
I think Toyotas may make more sense as new buys though since they hold their value so well.
Now is a really good time as winter is here and people need their driveway space back.
Cash for clunkers and covid, what a one two punch for the used car market. Might be a decade before things stabilize.
Especially since most auto manufacturers only design for say ~10 year reliability. Sure we could make a a part that would last forever, but it’d be heavy (bad for fuel economy) and expensive, so let’s make the lightest and cheapest part that will last about x years (we still want all that spare part revenue too!)
There is zero reason to put a battery in a wheel well for instance. What did it make the car $1 cheaper to make? Forget the battery till the end of the design?
Most reliable old cars would certainly be a good read though.
I think it's easier to get the answer you are looking for yourself: Just look outside and tally the number of old cars you see, and which models they are. That's your answer.
If you are considering buying an older car, but you rarely see it on the road, you have your answer as to whether it'll be a reliable car or not.
In Finland it is required by law for all cars older than 4 years to be inspected yearly or every two years (depending on the age of the car) so the statistics include quite large selection of different car models.
[1]: https://tieto.traficom.fi/en/statistics/statistics-inspectio...
(I don't know Finnish, used Google Translate)
If something causes friction or pain, but switching away / updating to a new system would incur a high cost or retraining time or break institutional knowledge, there seems to be an extreme bias to adapting to the pain rather than suffering the switching cost temporarily to improve the situation. There does seem to be a benefit though of extreme adaptation that occurs when a process remains unchanged for a very, very long time and actors in the system can develop extreme levels of experience.
The website was crap though, as most Japanese web services are, but that is another topic...
And yet, the myth of Japanese "uniqueness" is largely the product of Japanese national propaganda, serving many useful purposes for the state, for example increasing tourism and limiting permanent immigration. I find it quite fascinating in modern times this propaganda still lives on strongly throughout the world, as people say "things are so different in Japan."
You'd probably enjoy this meme:
But Japan is a condensed WTF/sqm if you ever visit you will see that it’s truly a special country.
There were a lot of pro-China articles and comments on HN about 5 or so years ago, China’s popularity has just taken a huge nosedive since then. Sexy Cyborg makes China look cool until the government shuts her down, making China look very uncool.
What specifically are you balking at?
His solution was to communicate much more actively with the Indian team, to try to squeeze more feedback that they would hesitate to give at first.
It is a mix of development, very different culture (Brazil has a lot of European and US cultural influence), but also safety, institutional efficiency, traditions. Idk, there is a lot of different aspects and things.
That’s the core point. Of course Asian culture is more different. Probably a better example would be for a Brazilian to visit some African tribe.
I visited African tribes, and of course it is different than a big city in Brazil, it is just as different as an indigenous tribe here in Brazil, or a more rural village.
Japan uniqueness, I believe, comes from its urban development. Rich, clean, polite, functional big cities is the uniqueness that I see in Japan that it’s not common in any other place in the world. I didn’t find that in LA, NY, Paris, London, Dakar.
Maybe Copenhagen (from the ones I visited) would match some aspects of it, but then it’s not as big as Tokyo, nor it is blended with the tradition as in Japan (or I am used to Nordic traditions more than Japanese)
I am convinced that Japan has some unmatched uniqueness which make it more different of other countries than other countries are among them.
Is the Consumer Reports that we're commenting on also Japanese propaganda?
It seems to fit well engineering, but it is not that good of a fit for software development - as they are generally not too great at the latter. I have only heard these things, so not even first-hand experience, but due to a senior people basically “have to be” at a higher position, there are software companies where the higher ups don’t know shit about what is even a computer.
Though I guess it's weird we didn't do that a lot of Chinese dishes. Soup dumplings instead of Xiao long bao. Idk how to even properly pronounce that.
> Idk how to even properly pronounce that.
From what I've heard, the Japanese has no qualms about importing English words or just making up "nonsensical" new English words to suit their needs.
Want more counterexamples? Probably literally every Italian food: spaghetti, pizza, ravioli...
To me, this is just more evidence for how strong this meme of Japanese uniqueness, coolness, "sugoi kawaii desune~~ ^-^" is. I'm not bashing people who think Japan is cool. But I do think it's weird how they can't recognize it's just a meme, to the point of fetishization.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Chine...
Some languages had periods where they tried finding a new, “pure” name for a foreign concept/item, but these have varied success rates, and often sound idiotic to native speakers, and they don’t see the point.
(Ironically you can look at say Bosch ECUs and will find much the same: thousands of global variables and lots of "odd" code, but that's because its generated from a dataflow language).
Anecdotally my late model Camry has very thorough floor mat retention mechanisms.
It would be a mistake to conclude this means the software doesn’t work well.
While the "single file" part is not great, using all global variables in an embedded system can be a good thing. I've worked on a critical piece of software for aircraft that did this deliberately, for safety reasons.
One of the most important criteria for that software is determinism, which means no dynamic allocation since it is hard to predict how the allocator would behave. The stack can also be very limited in size, so what remains are global variables.
It also makes debugging easier. You know exactly which variable corresponds to which address in memory. And with a probe, you can know the full state of the program at any time. That's also how we tested "impossible" conditions (for coverage): by overwriting specific memory addresses.
Many of the reasons why globals are bad didn't apply there. We had no concurrency, no resources to share with other processes, in fact, we didn't even have an OS at first, Nothing was dynamic, all arrays were of fixed size, including strings, which were array of characters padded with spaces to the appropriate length.
Of course, we documented usage of these variables, proper up-to-date documentation was not an option as it was certified software. It was one of the most boring job I ever had, and it is probably for the best.
Yes, we avoid dynamic memory allocation but using globals for everything?
Assuming C:
For inter-file access static variables with getters/setters achieves the same thing and makes it easier to split/test
I’ve never went as far as not using local variables in functions but you could use static here too to avoid the possibility of two functions sharing the same variable.
Perhaps what is missing is that the way we did testing was a bit unconventional. That is, we didn't have unit tests. Instead, we did it all through integration testing on the real hardware. And setting these globals was how we got coverage. We also had a particularly good traceability, so we knew exactly which tests to run after each code change and get our coverage back, which made up for the fact that we couldn't tests the functions independently.
It was a rather successful project, we got audited a couple of times with only minor issues. It certainly made testing more difficult, but we in exchange, it was much closer to real life conditions.
Note that it was a while ago, newer project use a more modern approach with a continuous integration platform, unit tests with an emulator, etc... We also use less C, instead using industry specific tools and certified code generators, multitasking RTOSes, etc... With C and ADA for the inner and legacy parts.
It was also mildly surprising to me how badly cool cars did. Eg Porsches and Audis had insane repair costs, compared to eg similarly sized Volkswagens. I assume this had more to do with the average driving style of Porsche owners than the hardware though - but that’s equally part of the risk math you gotta do when buying a used car!
We ended up buying a 12yo used Ford Focus for 3000 euros, from a generation that had miraculously low repair costs according to the site. We had nearly no repairs on it for the 6 years after (and then it suddenly pretty much fell apart, but still). I know nothing about cars and I fully credit the site for making me not screw up.
I really miss that site so if anyone knows something similar for used car, please do share!
After all, the most reliable car is no car :) When my 2009 Volkswagen (which was fun to drive sometimes) finally shit the bed, I wasn't in the position to need another or afford one, and I now lived somewhere where there were viable alternatives. Ever since then, when the prospect of considering a new one crosses my mind, I just think about how much of a liability it really was, and without the original constraints of an obtuse commute, I'd just be buying it for hypothetical impromptu road trips, and paying an extremely high cost to do so over time; insurance, gas, lots of repairs and basic maintenance at specific shops, the risk of accidentally hitting someone or getting into an accident, that attrition on my body from not walking enough, parking fees, broken windows, fuuuuuck that
Now when I need one, and I do maintain my license, I just rent an arbitrary new car for the week or so I might need it, and that's so far been pretty serviceable except for post-pandemic shortages and demand.
There is also an ODB2 manufacturer that collects stats about ODB2 error code frequencies per model and manufacturer (they have an API their hardware uses for up-to-date info), and they correlated that to repair costs per error code to estimate the reliability and maintenance costs of vehicles. I can't remember who it was, though.
Just recently I've had a driver completely ignore me on a crosswalk, which I almost never see happen, and it sure was a Porsche.
It’s a known thing that those brands share parts between models, but the price will be substantially different if you buy the “Porsche” part vs the (identical) “VW” part. The price discrepancies don’t necessarily indicate they Audi/Porsche are less reliable.
No but once you express reliability not as "chance of breakage" but "repair cost", which IMO is the key metric for someone considering a used car, then it does. Especially when you also factor in the behavior of the average Porsche driver on the road, which means more wear and tear.
I'd say the thing I'm worried about is more how often I find myself not able to use the car.
There’s just a lot more to go wrong with an ICE vehicle. You need oil and regular oil changes. A radiator, tubing, and antifreeze. An alternator. A carburetor and a catalytic converter. Timing belts. A exhaust system. None of this (as far as I know, IANAM) is needed for an electric vehicle.
A disproportionate amount of what’s under the hood of an ICE has to do with managing the consequences of the “C” component of that acronym (heat, combustion gases, electricity generation, lubrication, carbon deposits).
https://automotorpad.com/toyota/83449-funcionamiento-sistema...
It's essentially an engine, a transmission, another transmission (power split device), a drive motor and a generator.
Slightly OT, but I recently found that here in Germany there is a service where you can go to just like to a car wash without making an appointment. They will do the oil change for you within ten minutes or so and you do not even have to get out of your car during that time. This makes oil changes so much less annoying.
No way I would work on a car with a random member of the public behind the wheel.
They sometimes ask me to remove the keys from the ignition.
It looks like it wasn't the 1+M km version that they bought back, but the chap was an early adopter of Prius in that taxi role, and they bought back (exchanged?) his first one from 2001:
> For those working on the next generation Prius 2004 model, Grant’s taxi held invaluable information about wear and tear.They struck a deal: Grant sent his 2001 model back to Japan for testing and had a brand new 2003 model delivered.
Still excellent story, and good on him!
Even with no idle draw, lead acid batteries self discharge over time. Life got way easier when I just accepted it, and now I've got a pile of 6V/12V battery tenders that go into just about everything (I have no shortage of 6V vehicles out here too). That and block heaters. The tractor and truck both appreciate them.
I did some analysis of the Tesla 12V system back in 2016, and I'm amazed the batteries lasted as long as they did with how badly they abused the lead acid battery!
https://www.sevarg.net/2016/10/30/tesla-model-s-12v-battery-...
In Toyota, at least, the traction battery is completely disconnected (via a relay) when the car is off. The 12V battery is needed to power anything on the 12V system up until the car starts-- that includes the car's computer, which is what (after doing all its self-checks and whatnot) activates that relay and connects the traction battery to everything else in the car.
The traction battery isn't always connected probably mostly for safety reasons (having 400-someodd volts energized across the whole car even when it doesn't need it isn't great), but that also keeps it from getting excessively drained if something in the car malfunctions. It's pretty cheap to replace a 12V lead-acid battery if it's overdischarged after you left the lights on... the big hybrid battery, not so much.
This had me worried the first few times it happened. Then I found out it is a warning to mechanics/tow truck drivers/first responders that the high voltage system is energized.
It is only on if the car is turned off and parked and the high voltage system has turned on to charge the 12V battery. When you're driving or just have turned on the car while parked, the light goes off.
So the only occasion the light might be annoying is if you're taking a nap in the car at night. And then you could just throw a towel on top of it.
You expect to have the high voltage system energized when driving, otherwise the car wouldn't go anywhere. There would be no purpose for this light to go on.
The light is specifically to indicate that the high voltage system is on when the car is parked. It's a safety warning for that situation.
Some EVs like Tesla now use a separate lithium ion 12v battery that should last forever, instead of a lead acid 12v battery with a limited life span.
There's also a legal requirement that "marker lights and such" still work (presumably, also power locks and such) after a prime mover failure. Basically, if the engine quits, you should still be able to signal, get over, turn your 4-ways on, etc.
The easiest solution is to just put a lead acid 12V battery in the car for that. Lithium, in particular, is a problem below freezing because you can't safely charge it, whereas lead doesn't have that problem.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a38537243/electric-car...
There's a lot of Tier 3 supplier…stuff…in a car that was architected for 1978 and has never had a thorough re-think, because the profit margin is like nothing.
My mild hybrid Audi is the same way. Gas engine, 48v accessory belt run battery, and that 48v battery works in tandem with a small 12v battery for the low voltage system.
Otherwise CTEK chargers are really nice. Certain car brands like Porsche while sell you a "Porsche charger" for two or three times the price but it's just a CTEK charger re-branded with the Porsche logo on it.
If you've got a garage with electricity, it's an option. If you don't want to let the car on the charger during 5 weeks, just connect it as soon as you come back and in a few hours the car is ready.
But I blame the car's smart features (that use the cell modem to allow remote start, etc) rather than it being a hybrid. I suspect that the non-hybrid model would be the same.
I'd like to think that at some point the parasitic drain devices will shut down before they drain the battery completely, but I've never tested it beyond that point, I always plug in the charger if the car's going to be parked for more than a couple weeks. I installed a charger plug that comes out the front grill so I can plug it into the battery maintainer without even opening the hood.
To this day, since ~1980, I disconnect the +ve battery lead if the cars not going to be used for a few days or parked up in the bush waiting for when we get back from a walk.
Stops parasitic drains and Heisenbug discharges when thermal expansion during a very hot day causes a hard to track short.
I own 3 Kia’s and they all have various problems, including really big problems, but this is an area they got right. On my daily driver, the Kia Niro, it has a battery button that instantly charges the 12v from the HEV battery. I’ve only needed it once, when I left a light on camping, but it was like magic.
- https://www.kiaenginesettlement.com
- https://www.kiaengineclasssettlement.com
Edit: A friend of mine just got a free engine swap for her... 2012-ish Optima. It threw a CEL on the highway, had the appropriate trouble code, and bam, new engine from the dealership when she told them the code.
First and foremost, the transmission replaces the rather staggering pile of complexity of a modern automatic transmission, typically, with "a few motor/generators, some planetary gears, maybe a band that only engages when a motor is already stopped, and some power electronics." Compared to the 9+ speed automatics, this is dramatically simpler. Quite a few hybrids don't even have a mechanical reverse gear, it's just using the electronics for that brief period.
But, beyond that, you generally aren't asking the engine to idle, or to provide "starting torque" for the car - the hybrid system handles that sort of thing well. On at least the Gen 1 Volts, the motor "idles" at about 1200-1300 RPM, vs the ~750 RPM in most other vehicles, because it's almost never needed at low speed (heating in the dead of winter is the one time I notice it). But you don't have low speed, high load operation on the engines (which is a hard regime to operate in), and you don't have rapid speed changes with gear shifts (which is certainly more stressful than smooth speed changes or continuous speed operation).
You have less brake system wear, and... it goes on.
I know there's this popular "Hybrids/PHEVs are the most complicated of both worlds, so they must be the most unreliable of all worlds!" thing going around, but the data is quite clear that they're exceedingly reliable in actual use, and the "most complicated of all worlds" things tends to zoom out far enough to avoid looking at the transmission or engine design at any level of detail.
There are very few PHEVs that aren't using the same automatic gearbox as the plain-ole ICE model. You are describing the architecture the Prius uses I guess? In almost all cases the manufacturer just wraps a small electric motor around the output shaft of the same automatic gearbox connected to a small battery.
Mazda PHEVs - same auto gearboxes
BMW PHEVs - same auto gearboxes
Volvo PHEVs - same auto gearboxes
Mercedes PHEVs - same auto gearboxes
etc
There are probably some other exceptions i'm missing, but few PHEVs have a custom gearbox. While they may be just as reliable in many cases, they are almost always more complex designs than their ICE variants.
Some Lexus & Toyota hybrids and PHEVs use the eCVT transmission, which uses 2-3 electric motors inside to adjust torque rather than a belt.
The Subaru Crosstrek PHEV (internationally also called the e-boxer platform for the Forester hybrid) uses a Toyota eCVT variant that also still facilitates symmetrical AWD instead of a separate electrical motor driving the rear axle.
The ones I'm familiar with (which, admittedly, don't cover the ones you use) are all "parallel drivetrain" sorts of things, with a Prius-type transmission. Though I'm really only familiar with the Prius and Volt type drivetrains.
This is the same definition wikipedia uses too:
"A plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) is a hybrid electric vehicle whose battery pack can be recharged by plugging a charging cable into an external electric power source, in addition to internally by its on-board internal combustion engine-powered generator."
Except the most popular hybrid, the prius, which admittedly does t have a non/hybrid counterpart because it was done from the ground up to avoid unnecessary legacy technology
Series-Parallel and Series hybrid remove transmission so possibly there's an reliability advantage. For Parallel hybrid, it's electric addon so I don't know there are reliability advantage.
The article suggests plug-in hybrids are nearly 150% more prone to issues than regular cars though? I mean, I have one, and it seems good so far, but it contradicts your assertions.
Toyota CVTs are decently reliable, but other automakers tend to have trouble implementing them well.
This is just "initial quality" which has always been a bullshit metric invented by JD Power to sound good in automaker advertising.
The way it works is for the first 90 days of ownership every problem that bothers the owner counts as one point. So expensive cars that cater to fussy people score poorly compared to cars bought by people who only care about reliability and getting from point a to point b and don't pay attention to their car. Also, there is no weighting to the issues.
So you might have a situation like:
CR: So what problems did you find in the first three months of owning this expensive luxury car?
Owner: The glovebox latch is too loud and the heated seats heat up from the back first instead of the front first like I prefer and the power mirrors adjust too quickly.
CR: Ok, that's three points.
CR: Next person, what problems did you have?
Owner: Well, the rear wheel fell off after about 50 miles and after I owned it a couple of months it burst into flame on the highway.
CR: I'll mark that as two points.https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...
> Every year CR asks its members about problems they’ve had with their vehicles in the previous 12 months. This year we gathered data on over 330,000 vehicles, from the 2000 to 2023 model years, with a few early-introduced 2024 model years.
> We study 20 trouble areas, from nuisances—such as squeaky brakes and broken interior trim—to major bummers, such as potentially expensive out-of-warranty engine, transmission, EV battery, and EV charging problems. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream model.
> We weigh the severity of each type of problem to create a predicted reliability score for each vehicle, from 1 to 100. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream vehicle. (The reliability rating is then combined with data collected from our track testing, as well as our owner satisfaction survey results and safety data, to calculate each test vehicle’s Overall Score.)
> This year we gathered data on over 330,000 vehicles, from the 2000 to 2023 model years, with a few early-introduced 2024 model years.
That sounds believable, except that Lexus is at the top of the list, and they are definitely a "fussy people" brand. Meanwhile Chevrolet, Ford, and VW are near the bottom.
> We weigh the severity of each type of problem to create a predicted reliability score for each vehicle.
I really wouldn't turn to consumers reports for advice, Youtube is a better source for what to buy...
Just saying...
So? Are you saying that's wrong? Alfas are as reliable as the parts they are made of. One of the biggest weaknesses in many years in Alfas were the manual gearbox in the 159. It was from GM, not Alfa.
Is Alfa reliable? Depends. Compared to a Ford? Maybe, it depends. Compared to a Tesla? Yes, much much better.
Which is unfortunate because it's a soulless, joyless shitbox and I hate it. It just starts every single time, but it's not fun to drive. I see dozens of the exact same model on the road every day and they're all boring. The interior is fine, the handling is pretty good, the power is fine, fuel economy is fine. It's just okay all around. Except for the *five hundred dollar* alloy wheels, that really sucks. It's fine, it's boring, it gets me from A to B every time.
My prior car was the first one that I really enjoyed driving. It was fun, it had personality, it was a little car with a lot of pep in its step. It truly was a joy to drive. It burned all of the fluids and had plenty of mechanical problems, but I lovingly maintained everything I knew how to.
Honestly I'd take the fun troublesome car over the bland, boring box on wheels I'm stuck with now. At least troublesome is interesting.
Then I wrecked it, and the cops stole it by forcibly towing it to one of those scam tow yards that charge $500 a day. I had to bribe the guy at the yard just to get my personal belongings out of it.
We're talking about a car that gets you to and from work, not about dating in your 20's :)
Honestly the engine handles the load just fine. It's not nearly as fast as the tiny 5-speed Ford focus I had before, but I wouldn't say it's slow either.
It's fine, and nothing more.
Yeah it gets me to work every day, but my last car made my commute fun. At least on the days it worked, that is.
They really do seem to just be super reliable and are taking over the “I’m not a car person” market.
Oh well, at least it will keep running until I can afford an EV. We'll probably still keep it around for long range trips because I really don't expect it to die for a long time. 140k miles and I'm certain I'll get at least another 100k out of it if I cared to.
I actually bought the 2014 model rather than 2015 because I wanted the last year made in Japan, though I don't know how much of a difference this makes.
Mazdas are fantastic to drive, but that CX-3 rental had the real zoom zoom out of all of them.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great ride and a great car. The only thing I don't like about it is that there's nothing to like.
It's the Brother laser printer of cars. It's fine, it's whatever. It does the thing, it'll do it for years and years and never bother you. But it's still a bland boring box with nothing to love except the fact that it works and only needs serviced every fifth year.
One car (KIA) has electrical problems, probably the CAN bus. Parking shifter has to be overridden with a screwdriver to shift, the ABS sensor is on, and the cruise control doesn't disengage when I press the brake.
This car has a glove box of recalls letters Im going to have done when I finally have an appointment w/ the dealer.
The other one a VW, otherwise the "reliable one", had a radiator light turn on yesterday. Im praying it's just low coolant (it is low) and not a leak. It also has a dash light that wont go off complaining about the headlights (they're fine).
Neither of them have 100k miles.
But why is it low? Is it because the seals in the cap are getting old and slightly out gassing? Or is it because I have a hairline crack in a gasket that's about to be a catastrophic crack?
There's almost two orders of magnitude difference in price between those two repairs!
So I bought the biggest, heaviest car I could afford at the time.
Mechanically the car has been alright. Not great, but nothing big. But the electrical... what a shit show.
It's just that the 6 was designed to be a mass produced commodity with no frills and no personality. It's designed for someone who only cares about getting from A to B every single time. That's not me, I don't find that satisfying, I have other priorities.
Edit: Yep, it is[1]. No thanks.
It's e.g. the main reason why you'll wait months if you want to buy a new Volkswagen van, even though it is tens of thousands of dollars more expensive than similar vans. Much easier justifying buying a T7 when T5s with 100k miles still sell for more than other vans cost new.
In a few years I'll start looking at Subarus most likely. The feel on the road is fantastic. I just hope they haven't slipped into the complexity/tech abyss that most manufacturers seem to have.
I think it’s just a matter of preference. Just like you might prefer to spend money and time on some other form of entertainment, some people who have to drive every day prefer to get some enjoyment out of it. Regardless of your judgement on “car culture”, it is enjoyment and happiness for that people nonetheless.
>I think it is ruining America.
This is not an America thing. And it’s not new. Many modern societies, ever since cars have been invented, have had this “car culture” you speak of.
There are many biases build in to self-reporting surveys. Longtime Consumer Reports readers who buy a Toyota because they believe it is the most reliable make want their choice to have been correct. Their answers about problems with their car will reflect that.
There are definitely flaws with self reporting but it’s just a data source with its limitations.
Statistical validity is based on what is done with the data, not whether it’s self reported or measured accurately. What you may be thinking of is whether their study or logic is sound.
And as they explain, they ask people about the actual problems they've had in the last 12 months with their car; nothing soft or fuzzy or relative to expectations at all.
Is the Tesla better? It is safer and quieter, and it doesn't require gas stations. So yes, it is better. Is it 2,000% better (following the price difference)? No – it is maybe 5-10% better.
(If I were to buy a car right now, I would choose the Rav-4.)
First off, the Mini is just a smaller BMW, second the BMWs are complicated and designed to be maintained a certain way because that is how german cars are designed. You don't accidentally go 10k over an oil change on a higher mileage BMW and expect nothing bad to happen, but that would probably be okay on a Honda/Toyota/some American cars.
If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways.
Also:
> If you are not average, expect results that are not average. That goes both ways.
I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers.
> think a bit deeper than "X > Y so X = better"
that's pretty much what the list is for.
>I still have trouble believing BMW has 3x the reliability in the first three years than practically all the American manufacturers.
I do not know it 3 times is the correct number, but I do not doubt that it is a significant difference. I'd also argue that if we had the graphs, we would be able to see it getting worse after Tesla became a success.
>that's pretty much what the list is for.
I have no idea what the list if for. IMO it is a mess and maybe even clickbait.
BMW's are sport enthusiast vehicles. They are probably used and abused and higher levels than typical Toyotas and Lexus. You won't see many Toyotas and Lexus in race tracks, however they are usually populated by all type of BMWs, specially M performance and full M models.
So I expect that under normal usage, BMWs are even more reliable that the ranking shows.
The fact that Lexus/Toyota are actually at the top makes me trust it
I'm surprised Mercedes is so low in the list. They've traditionally been one of the more reliable German brands, that's why they're used as taxis in many countries.
Chrysler (30 out of 30) by Stellantis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis) along with: Fiat, Alfa Romeo (unranked), Dodge (21) RAM (15) Jeep (26)
Oh, my sweet summer child. I can tell you still have fond memories of the pre-2010 Mercedes era ...
Who's gonna tell him?
Please share what you believe happened in 2010 to Mercedes to cause the flip from an ideal choice for taxis to this consumer reports ranking.
BMWs B58 engines is so nice Toyota put it in a Supra.
It bothers me to see a 1 to 100 scale for this - what does the number actually mean in practice? Comparing a score of 80 and a score of 20, does that mean the lower score is likely to need 4x as many trips to the mechanic? 4x as much spent on repairs in a year?
In other words - how big is the gap between first and last place in real-world terms? Presenting the scores this way suggests a huge difference, is that actually the case?
Either way, surprised to see Mini near the top and Mercedes-Benz all the way at the bottom!
Seemingly very little:
We study 20 trouble areas, from nuisances—such as squeaky brakes and broken interior trim—to major bummers, such as potentially expensive out-of-warranty engine, transmission, EV battery, and EV charging problems. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream model.
We weigh the severity of each type of problem to create a predicted reliability score for each vehicle, from 1 to 100. We use that information to give reliability ratings for every major mainstream vehicle. (The reliability rating is then combined with data collected from our track testing, as well as our owner satisfaction survey results and safety data, to calculate each test vehicle’s Overall Score.)
1. Toyota Hilux trucks. Interestingly, for a combination of legislative reasons, you can't buy these in the US; But they are incredibly reliable.
2. AK-47 rifles. These are perhaps one of the most influential weapon systems in history. Again, incredibly reliable.
3. Casio digital watches. These are used as timers for improvised explosives but again, they're incredibly reliable. And cheap.
Back to cars, reliability is an interesting metric for cars because the manufacturers have made it incredibly difficult to maintain such cars yourself. You need to go to an authorized reapir shop that'll have the equip to access the computer systems.
Is this more reliable? If you break down in the middle of nowhere, it can be less than ideal. A simpler vehicle can be easier to get going again.
While the watches themselves last forever I find that the strap or loop breaks pretty quickly at which point the cheapest option seem to be buying a whole new watch.
I'm convinced that whatever remains of the charred Earth after WW3, somebody will still be driving a Hilux.
https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/a...
The ADAC list works by listing how often a model needed roadside assistance per 1000 registered vehicles, so if they didn't need any assistant, they would just appear as a 0.5 or something along those lines, but the Rav4 has a values between 16-20 and even the best performing model, the Toyota Yaris, doesn't have the best scores.
Pow, right in the feels :’)
But in reality, I suspect this has more to do with the following two things:
1. The STi package has always had abysmal fuel economy, and I believe there are regulations that enforce an average fuel economy across an entire manufacturers fleet
2. Many (most?) of the modders and hooners are put off by the price. In fact, most aren’t really interested in a track car, but rather in a cheap, fast box to drag race between traffic lights.
P.s. the new BRZ might also be stealing a bit of the market, despite the reverse-Zoolander issue it faces with oil pressure…
Re 1: I really hope they bring out a refreshed version, but I have a feeling that may not happen for a while… at least while batteries weigh what they do. Maybe a full EV version some day?
Re 2: yeah the STi was hardly affordable to (my guess) the majority of the crowd that’s into them.
I should have snagged an STi instead of the standard WRX when I had the chance. I love my wrx though, so much fun to drive.
I'd never get a WRX though.
Build quality and ride comfort though, not so much. They're rough and tumble machines, not luxury sedans (well, the Legacy is nice enough, not seems silly to get that over a Toyota).
Speaking of Toyota, they own part of Subaru anyway and have collaborated with them on a few dual-branded vehicles.
The Forester has been though two batteries and just last week I had a wheel bearing in the rear replaced. No other trouble and still runs fine.
I got the Ascent to keep out in Seattle and that'll be my car there -- it'll fit right in -- Subaru seems to make up about 30% of cars in the Seattle area.
I’ll be driving it in snowy conditions in Canada. Ontario , Quebec, and New Brunswick in the dead of winter trips :)
For tuners it's been a box of wonders. For ordinary consumers, that maps directly to reliability.
If you google around, you'll see mention of head gasket problems in association with Subaru. This issue has been resolved for the better part of 20 years. Today, the intersection of people who blow up Subaru engines and people who drive like drunk, teenage morons is effectively a perfect circle.
I replaced it with a KIA Soul. At the time, the price / value made sense. It was an unplanned expense and I just didn't have time to shop around. It's was buy or die! :) The Soul is still going but it's been it the shop for various issues much more than the WRX ever was.
That said - if my assertion is true, the Tacoma is truly a wonder with its reliability and so on. No surprise given it is the mobility platform of choice in Mid-East and Africa for militias and local armies (i.e. Toyota Hilux).
The top car brands - Lexus/Toyota, Acura/Honda, Subaru, and Mazda - have been widely scolded for not trying very hard to build EVs and would rather refine the same exact ICE cars for decades.
https://ts2.space/en/is-solterra-toyota-or-subaru/#gsc.tab=0
https://www.torquenews.com/1084/why-subaru-takes-credit-new-...
And Subaru might pull away from that partnership after early models had wheels falling off:
https://www.torquenews.com/1084/why-it-s-smart-subaru-pull-a...
It's all kinda incestuous anyway. Toyota owns 20% of Subaru already: https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-officially-joins-toyo...
Is it because "Elon bad" or you have some technical reasons?
But Musk doesn't help matters either. I used to really respect him (and still grudingly do, mostly for SpaceX and Starlink), but he seems more and more unhinged over the years. Maybe if he were more hands off Tesla like he was with Starlink? To me Tesla just feels like an edgy image company rather than an old fashioned car company like Subaru. I don't want that whole baggage or culture, I just want a car.
Kudos to Tesla for jumpstarting EVs, but I'd much rather go with the stale Japanese option.
I own a Toyota Avensis. It is the most boring car in the world, but I never ever had any issues with it. Mine is the second facelift, built in 2015, based on a chassis that had been in production since 2009. So any early problems have been resolved long time ago.
Maybe this explains a bit why Toyota is on top in the reliability ranking. They are very reasonable cars. Would I buy one if I had more money? Hell, no!
Maybe if you pay enough for the car that dealer service drops off a loaner, picks up your car, then drops off your car and picks up the loaner with minimal interaction, a less reliable car is fine. Or if you have a useful car and a fun car, the fun car doesn't have to work all the time. Otherwise, having a car that just works is worth a lot.
I've been asked a few times "what car would you buy?" and my answer is always something along the lines of "if you need to ask, you shouldn't buy a car that I'd buy".
Why don't I own a Toyota? Because they're boring. Boring is actually what most people are looking for in a car.
I need a little excitement in my commute. Maybe something starts spraying. Maybe something starts smoking. Maybe something falls off.
I have driven lots of them in 90s-20s and thought it were the best cars. And it were.
The W126 was a fairly simple car though, compared to their modern offerings, and it was built under a philosophy of building the best car regardless of cost.
My W140 was a also a well made car, great quality in materials and mechanical fundamentals, but it was too complicated and quite a bit more problematic for me.
Modern Mercedes-Benz cars don't seem as distinguished or well built as their offerings from the 1980s. With that said, my C216 CL-class is a very well built car in terms of materials and general attention to detail; it's just too complicated with hurts its overall reliability (though the powertrain is decently solid).
Not saying MB quality hasn’t changed but given the large feature set the problem surface area is also very large. More opportunities for owners to find issues.
By comparison, Lexus uses tried and tested old technology to the point it’s boring to own. But it’s super reliable.
2nd thing not captured here: not all car models are equal. The lower end Mercs and other premium manufacturers models aren’t built to the same standards by my experience. There’s a difference in quality of a German car made in Germany and a German car made in Mexico. The higher end models used to be made in Germany (not sure if that’s still the case).
All of this affects this rating. You might be fine buying an E class but the experience of owning a CLA might be shit.
Regrettably quality deteriorated quickly.
The N52 seems rather better, as all its common faults are relatively cheap to fix.
The older N52 engine is also very solid and reliable, my high mileage 2006 330i (E90) has been rock solid reliable in its powertrain.
My mechanic told me the N20 engine is terrible though, he has encountered an absurd number of them failing. The N54 is solid enough mechanically, though they get HPFP issues and need occasional cleaning of soot/gunk from valves.
It's worse in B47, which carries over the same timing parts as N47 and it's generally acknowledged it's best to replace the chain at 120000km there.
6cyls seem to fare better, my guess is the pulling forces on the chain are spaced more evenly.
1. Toyota
2. Mini
3. Honda
4. Subaru
5. Mazda
Congratulations Japan.
So probably the highest complexity of the more premium platforms and features is bringing the reliability down for BMW, unsurprisingly (a v8 engine probably would fail earlier than a simple 3-cylinder engine)
The hard bit isn't the process per se, it's executing the process when it would otherwise be easier not to.
Or maybe they have different approach to beta testing, see say Zelda come out basically flawless and how say Betshesda or many others can deliver their stuff (beta testing months after release with fixes have 1000+ rather basic items).
Basically, getting to your last sentence: you have the wrong threat model. Making "cars better" is great if what a "car" is doesn't change. But what the market wants is "better cars".
[0] https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/more-than-half-o...
It's really bad if you have a sub-brand, like "Hybrids", which has been completely decimated by the (again very real, even if you don't think anyone in Edmonton should buy them) move to electric devices in the market.
Basically: 8 years ago Toyota owned the "ecologically sensitive car buyer" market. And now you might as well flush the Prius brand in the toilet, no one wants them and selling them as "green" relative to a Tesla is a joke.
"Sales of Toyota’s conventional hybrids rose 41% from a year ago, to about 888,000, and sales of its plug-in hybrids were up nearly 90% year-over-year to roughly 39,000."
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/01/toyota-tm-q3-2023-earnings-g...
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/toyota-motor-north-...
Instead of making up nonsense you could just look at the actual sales numbers. Most manufacturers issue news releases with sales volumes broken down by model.
In Q3 this year, Nissan is in 10th place, with 6000 EV's sold: https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
If you look at numbers from a couple years ago compared to now, most of the other manufacturers are way up, whereas Nissan almost looks like they've already plateaued.
Also, apparently the Leaf successor won't go into production until 2026? https://electrek.co/2023/05/19/what-we-know-nissan-leaf-ev-r...
That's crazy if true. What the hell has Nissan been doing?
The Japanese company sent them 3 bags of parts noting: The bag with the full quantity is made to match the provided blueprint, the other two bags contain 1/10th as many parts which are either larger or smaller as requested. May we ask what the purpose of these other parts is?
When they started measuring the parts, they were all identical --- part-way through, they decided that their micrometer must be broken and sent for another --- it revealed that all parts where _exactly_ the right size per the specifications of the drawing.
The context was auto transmissions --- it was found that one source of premature failures was when all parts in a transmission were at the extreme of too small or too large --- on average, the large/small would balance out, but when it didn't that was when there were early (and catastrophic) failures.
It doesn’t mean a thing to have a “stop everything” lever if your workforce doesn’t want to pull it because they don’t give a flying fuck if they ship a shoddy car.
It’s a story told again and again with tons of Japanese products.
What's especially annoying is that the high end European cars are ostensibly better made... much more expensive materials, more attention to detail (better rustproofing, cable organization, etc.). They probably actually last longer on average if you maintain them well, but they just have unexpected parts failures extremely often.
Mercedes was a global leader in quality until about the early 90s, but the quality really dropped off, and is markedly lower than other German cars nowadays. Drive and inspect an expensive early 2000s Mercedes, and then a cheap VW Jetta from the same time period… there is no doubt about it, the cheap VW is a higher quality car in every way. Every bolt and fastener is high grade steel, plated with a corrosion preventative , and then also coated with threadlocker that also protects from corrosion. VW then cut quality also around 2011 or so.
So it’s not really cut and dry, you have to look at how each specific car was actually made.
Toyota has partnered with Mazda as well - for example, there was Mazda 2 rebadged as a Toyota Yaris for a few years.
My family has sworn by Japanese cars since I was a kid, with most of us buying exclusively Honda or Toyota (incl their luxury lines, Acura/Lexus).
When my Nissan Sentra got totaled by a drunk driver I looked at all the similar cars from both American and Japanese companies. The first thing I noticed was that the Japanese cars were comfortable--I had plenty of leg room, by head didn't hit the roof, the seats weren't too narrow, and the steering wheel wasn't too close.
The American cars were all more cramped. And I don't mean cramped just in ways that I could fix if I would have just got my act together and lost weight. No, they were also cramped because I was too tall for them.
I even took a look at American mid-sized cars and they too were apparently not meant for people over 6 ft.
It was kind of funny. The Japanese are a relatively small people. I'd be around 97th percentile on height there. So how come they are so much better at making cars that accommodate tall people?
Anyway, I ended up with a Honda Civic. 11 years later it developed a problem that my local dealer (Seattle Honda) just could not reproduce or diagnose from my description and it was again time for a new car. (From later discussion on a car forum on the net, it seems like the problem was a bad ECU).
That was around when SUVs were getting really popular, and I decided to have a look. Again, Japan for the win. Even though the American SUVs I looked at were overall much bigger cars than the Honda CR-V, only the CR-V had the head and leg room I needed.
I ended up with a CR-V. That worked so well that when that lease was up I leased another, and then another when that lease was up. Then I remembered that I had only leased that first one so that if I didn't like the form factor it would be easy to switch back to a sedan, and so when that third lease was up bought a new 2006 CR-V and still drive that now.
I also have an Audi A4 and S4. Something is always breaking on them, but they are very enjoyable to drive compared to the Celica. It has such terrible torque steer that we avoid driving it in any kind of rain. With an open diff, it's essentially a one wheel drive vehicle on any kind of low traction surface. Specifically, the front left wheel.
Subaru: depending on which model can have a lot of Toyota parts.
Subaru has a ton of engine and 4WD knowledge that would benefit Toyota, the other way around, Toyota has economies of scale and hybrid knowledge that Subaru will likely never have so both come out ahead of a partnership like this and the signs are that they are drawing closer to each other. Toyota has steadily expanded their stake in Subaru which today stands at 20%, and Subaru is now officially a part of the Toyota group.
https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru-officially-joins-toyo...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2013/10/29/consume...
With that sort of handicap it's either a testament to how great Subaru is or how terrible every other automaker is.
CVTs are inherently more fragile than a geared transmission, they simply cannot hold as much torque.
Almost all Subarus sold in the last 3 years have these engines and transmissions and they still hang.
Perhaps the best mercedes model (w124) ever built.
Reliable and still going from Denmark to Italy and back with no trouble at all.
Can only recommend it even though it is +30 years old.
Almost every single problem with the car had a warning sign that I had told them well in advance, but they were always unwilling to do anything about it.
If you do your due diligence by taking action at every warning sign (strange noise, RPMs not the usual value, etc.) a LOT of "reliability" issues would not happen in the first place. A car is a fast-moving piece of mechanical equipment and needs regular servicing.
Don't do what doctors do and "wait till shit happens" to diagnose you so that they can make a buck off of you in the hospital. Prevent shit.
I do think there are cultural issues though with the US vs Europe. It's very common that cars that are known for quality and reliability in Europe are regarded as exceptionally temperamental in the US. When I first moved to the US I couldn't understand why German cars had such a bad reputation for reliability here. Most of them are traditionally considered more or less bulletproof in Europe.
But after while I noticed that many American owners don't pay any attention to maintenance schedules, and just wait until something breaks. Some cars are forgiving of that, and some aren't.
Nowadays I rank cars into roughly 3 categories: those that hardly ever break no matter what you do, those that are fine if you do what you're told, and those that break no matter what you do.
That said, Toyota does often decide to go for reliability over other measures like fuel economy or power in eg their engines. Some of the older Toyota engines used twice as many bearings as other engines for example, downside being extra drag and lower fuel economy.
> Lexus is the luxury vehicle division of the Japanese automaker Toyota Motor Corporation.
I would hazard a guess that Toyota and Lexus have very similar real-world reliability - most of them share platforms. However this article shows that Lexus owners perceive their cars to be more reliable than Toyota owners.
Somehow Mini is near the top of the list too
Maybe they get better maintenance than their Toyota cousins on average?
BMW often ranks high but there's a bias when asking a BMW owner -who often likes cars- how good their car is, compared to a Dacia owner who often just needs to get from A to B and see a car as strictly transport.
Having to take my Subaru in for an oil change every six months is annoying, even if it means I’ve only ever had one serious issue. (Computer flipped out because someone didn’t close the gas cap tightly enough, leading to a service visit requirement, which is absurd.)
I have done my oil changes in the past, and for the recommended oil and filter on my 8 year old Toyota, $50 would cover 5 quarts of oil and a cheap filter. Add in disposal + labor, it's sometimes just easier to pay my local mechanic the $75 for the oil change.
https://www.costco.com/mobil-1-advanced-fuel-economy-full-sy...
I just looked up a local mechanic's website, and they advertise $35 for synthetic blend oil change, and $65 for full synthetic blend oil change (most non european cars). I wonder if they price it to be at cost or even a loss leader.
My VW is admittedly 10 years old, and still under the Dieselgate warranty, but I've averaged 2 warranty repairs per oil change interval for 3 years now.
They haven't been able to figure out the cranks forever but does not start for those 3 years, two dealerships have tried now.
They are fairly expensive trips I'm glad to have warranty on. EGR, DPF, 4 sensors in one trip, etc. I'm almost to a new exhaust system and the CEL is on again.
Wish me luck! I went back and forth to the dealership 7 times before they put it back together right last time.
If that's the experience, count me out. It's the last one.
Anecdotally, someone in my family has a Mini with the BMW engine, and it’s been ticking along just fine. Maintenance is expensive though.
https://car-recalls.eu/reliability/reliability-tuv-report-20...
As for the rest being toys, I have to disagree. Toyota makes fantastic cars too. A friend has a 2010 Matrix that's just great. And his 20+ year old Camry is very good too.
I have BMW 5 series F11, not the newest model but TBH given current design I am better off that way. It has tons of tiny or bigger than tiny software bugs in behavior. Seems like some sensors in the car also start to die, giving some rather crazy warnings (ie chassis integrity check when a very good car mechanic went through and didn't find any sign of damage, sometimes big collision flash on screen that is never going to happen, 10+C temperature change and I get tire pressure warnings and so on). The stuff that should be helping you ends up annoying much more and is often disabled, which is outright fail of engineering.
With that software quality, going to newer more integrated and stupidly designed (less physical buttons) version would be a step back, and I very confident they just made it shinier, not better tested. Maybe my next car will be one model earlier than our current one, the problem is with old enough cars even basic things like wires and tubes start to fail.
Kept waiting for something to stop working and need fixing... 70k+ miles later, I was still driving and waiting.
Unless the boot is majorly damaged, very limited dirt gets in, most of the grease stays in, and lifetime of the joint isn't severely impacted.
How long do unsealed CV joints usually last?
(At the time, I didn't have access to a garage, so it was more than I wanted to repair at home)
How long can it last like that? Basically forever.
That the wheel suspension and tie rods are the working components, absent power.
It definitely took more of an umph to get into 4WD late in life.
I think people meme hard on Tesla to make them sound like the most unreliable car out there for some reason, when in reality you occasionally have fit and finish issues and a normal amount of unreliability.
But, I guess that is in part because toyota just redesigned the tundra with a lot of fancy junk, while mine is a near base model that was produced for more than a decade and had most of the "bugs" worked out by the time I purchased it new.
But that happened with the tachoma/4runner, too right? A couple of years back, the redesign had drivetrain problems, which presumably have been worked out now.
Interestingly, one of my colleague's worst car experience was Audi, not sure if A1 or A2, but he was very disappointed how unreliable it was. Case point 1.
I guess this is interesting, but only actionable info is if you pay for a subscription and look up not just a particular model, but of a particular year and trim
After reading into the details of the rank and some comments here I came up with the following explanation for me:
- Reliability is only related to the first 2-3 years of the car
- Long term reliability of engine and gears or chassis is not related to some minor issues of other parts in the first years of life of a car
I'm currently in year 3 and so far only had 2 issues caused by external factors:
- Electric cables damaged by animal bite (marten)
- Rear drive shaft gear broken because workshop forgot to refill oil after change
All hail McLuhan.
> Overall, hybrids have 26 percent fewer problems than cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE). Some standouts include the Lexus UX and NX Hybrid and the Toyota Camry Hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, and RAV4 Hybrid.
and:
> Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs)... have 146 percent more problems than ICE vehicles. Still, there are PHEVs that buck that trend, including standouts such as the Toyota RAV4 Prime
> All hail McLuhan.
That doesn't seem paradoxical, I'd never expect that just counting potential trouble areas is the right thing, things can be made more reliable by addition. Make a laptop without a battery and I'm gonna report a lot of problems stemming from sudden power loss. Put a battery in, that's a new potential trouble area, but even if I still use it plugged in exclusively, I'm gonna report fewer problems since I'll never have sudden power loss and have no problems downstream of that.
Maybe that's not the case with hybrids? I don't know, but it seems like it could be - any time some of the load is taken off some of the most physical components, the ICE and the brakes, it could improve reliability even though the systems taking the load off can then also have problems.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/us-electric-vehicles-...
I would expect vastly different results across different drivetrains, and probably even more differences across shape/size platforms (compact, sedan, truck, van, etc.).
https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/a...
Many readers aren't savvy and just want to know what dealership to show up at to start asking what they can afford. If brand XYZ has amazing ICE reliability but their EVs are trash, you suddenly need to be a more informed consumer when you get to that dealership. Easier to just rank the companies with a long history of reliability across multiple product segments higher.
It's especially important to see how they compare given the zealous push for EVs to replace ICE completely.
> Cars, including sedans, hatchbacks, and wagons, remain the most reliable vehicle type, with an average reliability rating of 57 (on a scale of 0 to 100), followed by SUVs (50) and minivans (45). “Sedans have fallen out of favor with consumers, but as a class they are very reliable,” says Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. “They often have less of the latest technology and features that can cause problems before the bugs are worked out.” Pickup trucks come in last, with an average reliability rating of 41.
That surprises me because I've browsed a lot of use vehicles and it seems to me like pickups can go to way higher miles than cars. I see a lot of them still run fine with 150,000+ miles
Maybe the owners are more willing to pay for major repairs though since getting a new one is so expensive?
For most folks buying a car these days, if they choose EV its not due to environmental concerns, not primarily or secondarily, at least I don't know single one person among EV owners. They just want a reliable car, and 130 years of fine tuning combustion engines can end up more reliable in say 15 years than shiny unproven electric design (single case 1 but I can provide such - my previous bmw e46 vs tesla model s of my colleague, or model 3 of another colleague).
How does the Toyota Prius (with 19 potential trouble areas, per the article) compare with a non-hybrid (say a Mazda 3)?
The first graph indicates that Toyotas are, on the whole, more reliable than Mazdas, and the second graph indicates that hybrid drivetrains (despite having more trouble points) are marginally more reliable than purely gas powered vehicles.
Taken together, this suggests that a recent Prius would be more reliable than a recent Mazda 3, but it would be nice to have a model-wise reliability score, no?
Funny how the order is almost the opposite of the rather opaque consumerreports one. While looking at actual breakdowns is more telling of major issues, looking at only the first year isn't going to reveal much beyond glaring manufacturing defects. I'd be interested in more long term issues (although understandably this would be more of a past performance based on previous models metric). Although long term all cars reliability (especially ICE) is an AND operation with maintenance and care, but with a large enough sample size there's a hope this noise should average out.. ignoring the annoying issue of buyer bias.
The article also points out the vast majority of breakdowns are from dead batteries - Whether that's user error or parasitical leaks, or bad batteries is not clear, but sticking in a bigger battery with high cold cranking amps is a very cheap fix for that. Parasitical leaks are more of a pain to solve, especially since fitting a kill switch tends to make the computers in modern cars very upset.
If I had to guess it is partially due to user error, but the majority probably stems from people not replacing them when they should and being one of the few things in newer cars where you need to actually call help and can’t wait a few days to have it repaired.
[1] https://www.hemmings.com/stories/renault-returning-to-us-mar...
This approach is a serious problem now though. They have big issues producing competitive EVs.
It would've been great to have the reliability score for EVs as a separate statistic. I'm sure they don't always match up with the overall reliability of a manufacturer.
My Nissan going on 8 yrs now. Only basic maintenance, tire replacement, and battery replacements so far.
the replacement 2013 accord euro...absolutely impractical to do the same DIY...the dash computer integrated console with A/C controls is a nightmare to replace with fascia which has space for double DIN...
i wonder if i should downgrade again to a classic Honda integra, or pre-smart Civic...
Has never let me down ... even once ... * knock on wood *
Also enjoying maintaining a 69 Beetle... no Wifi, no tracking, hardly any electronics at all ... LOVE IT.
And though I love driving, I don't drive that often, so my emissions are low.
Sorry, you can keep your new cars.
But Mercedes coming in 29/30? That surprises me. I've never owned a Mercedes but I thought they had a reputation for reliability.
We still own one - a GLC300 from its first model year (2017) and it's basically been perfect. Zero problems beyond some cosmetic stuff w/ a seat rip but that's wear and tear. I care more about mechanical.
On the other hand, the E-class sedan we owned was nothing but trouble. I remember looking at some of the reported reliability data and it seemed like every 3-4 years, you'd have this cycle where the first year had great reliability and then it degraded over the next 2-3 years. When they released a new trim, reliability was back up.
Note - this is heavily anecdata, but having talked w/ other folks that owned multiple MB's, they felt it was similar.
My theory is it has something to do with the models manufactured in Germany versus the ones eventually offshore. Something doesn't translate as they offshore manufacture.
BMWs on the other hand are enthusiast cars, driven quicker, modified more, raced in tracks, etc. Obviously the reliability is going to suffer. I'm pretty sure that under normal usage, they will endure as much if not more than a Toyota.
But I'm dubious because Mini is near the top. And are Porsche and BMW known to be reliable? You can't even get your oil changed except at slecialized centers. I assume they're reliable in the same way airplanes are: lots of maintenance intervals.
- brush my hair
- work hard at school & work
- check Consumer Reports before buying a car
Also, VW data does not encompass Golf, which seems to me to be by far the most sold VW car in Europe (based on what I see on the streets, not actual data). Seems a bit strange to omit these.
But oh boy, whatever they made after 200s was a complete garbage.
If you are in the market, you are better off spending your time researching specifics rather than aggregations.
I like the idea of penalizing manufacturers for frequent software updates: they either mean that there are frequent safety issues addressed after manufacturing (so calling them recalls is 100% appropriate) or they mean that the manufacturer is constantly fiddling with the infotainment system. Neither of those are traits I want in a car manufacturer.
I remember because I was joking yesterday with my partner that we should never buy a Beamer.
But as a long time BMW fan I too feel the cars have really taken a nosedive in just about every metric. Reliability, design, quality, you name it.
Very surprised to also see Mini as high as it is.
of course, they are still expensive to maintain.
That said, as an owner of all three German fancy-pants brands and a meh shade-tree mechanic, I'm also really surprised by how high the BMW family is.
Times they are a changing I guess.
AFAICT certain models have been highly problematic but overall they're very reliable things as shown by these numbers in TFA!?
Wife's BMW 3-series: it only started having electrical issues once it got very old and it was nothing too bad (heck, some I even fixed myself). Then she got a Toyota CHR hybrid: great car, but not for highway driving (at least not at speeds on european highways). She now bought a 4-series, used, five years old. One year and absolutely zero issue. A friend of mine at the same time bought a used 5-series (24 months old): zero issues.
I don't hear many people around me complaining about reliability issues on their BMWs (in the country where I used to live, Belgium, it's literally the brand the most sold, before Volkswagen and then Mercedes [1] and in the country where I live now it's the 3rd most sold brand).
> I remember because I was joking yesterday with my partner that we should never buy a Beamer.
They're good cars however I'm not sure I'd buy a german car if I was living in the US again. I did it and, well, it's my experience that german cars are easier to service/fix in europe (especially when you live in germany or close to germany) than in the US.
I'd probably go for a japanese car.
[1] Numbers for 2023: https://www.focus2move.com/belgium-auto-sales
I now own a Honda CR-V. In the last 5 years, not even one time it caused an issue. It is as reliable as cars get.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/big-difference-betwe...
Might be survivor bias but my VW Passat B6 TDI is still trucking and I don't plan on replacing it anytime. Ideally I will run it into the ground.
whereas a used bmw or benz after 5 years the value is in the gutter. even though there might be a good car to go on.
Are they meaningfully different or just different badges of the same company?
Looking at the data, in terms of true reliability EVs appear to be about on par with ICE cars which is quite the feat considering they have a 120+ year lead. Hammer out the manufacturing defects and the lead seems easy to achieve.
It's also a little weird to not give any nod to the almost complete lack of maintenance for EVs. Is it not a reliability win that you are able to gas up at home and have no maintenance to do other than tires?
The list is about reliability. Having soft shocks doesn’t play much into that unless you’re forgetting that the motor mounts need to be replaced way sooner than you would expect because the suspension is absorbing a lot of the rough ride in the cab.
Dodge has taken their trucks into competition with Cadillac and GMC instead of Ford and Toyota in years past.
It's flawed/biased - the rankings are based on "member" surveys, which makes the sample biased (likely not representative of all car buyers, CR has never attempted to prove it is as far as I know), which is a flaw if you're using it to make (large financial) decisions. Using surveys rather than evidence is perhaps a more fundamental problem. Essentially this "ranking" is of the perception of quality among a subset of people rather than a serious, quantitative ranking.
A car is too complex a thing to be characterized with a single scalar value.
There was a reddit thread this year where someone asked "what brand would you tell everyone to avoid", and it was a pretty unanimous "Toyota wins."
Hopefully they'll quit making infotainment systems. I like my phone->FM adapter.
Edit: I worded my comment poorly. The mechanics all love Toyota. Everything else was on many guys' shit-lists.
Older than I thought, but perhaps I just stumbled across it this year. That's the only one I could find with a big number of comments, like I recall.
Interesting, as I was under the assumption that Toyota and Honda were the cheapest to repair.
But same re. infotainment. I have a suction cup MagSafe charging mount for my 2004 4Runner and I patched a bluetooth receiver into the stock head unit. Nothing better than that glorious amber glow when driving late at night. LCD's are blinding by comparison.
Plus this way I don't ever have to enter the iPhone's crippled CarPlay navigation mode, or really deal with CarPlay ever. I just use the phone the same as any other time, no new UI or "safe driving" features to obstruct me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/jbw8i7/mechanics...
Interestingly, on the OP link, they don't list the Tacoma, notoriously one of the most reliable vehicles.
Part of the reason is that Toyota uses really conservative, classic engineering. They sell things that have worked well for decades, and they're hesitant to introduce new features.
That's also why their infotainment systems are notoriously terrible and they lagged years behind everyone else on selling electric cars. Gotta take the good with the bad.
I thought part of that was that they were big believers in hydrogen?
You absolutely can reduce it to a single scalar value. You might personally disagree with the weights, but then your calculation is just a little bit different.
And you have to be able to reduce it to a scalar value at the end of the day, or else you'd never be able to make a decision about which car to buy, because you'd be entirely paralyzed when it came to cost/benefit assessments.
Its like counting number of bugs or lines of codes as metrics
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-vehi...
Linked article is literally reliability score that puts them dead center in the middle of the pack.
I'm amazed at the investment people have on arguments about Tesla, and this particular canard especially. I mean, they're cars? Sometimes they break? But not often? Some other brands are better. But some are worse!
It's a boring story about boring facts. Why is it so important to you (and so many other people) that this be a hyperbolic affront to all humanity and not just... a car company?
Look, again: they make cars. Cars are complicated devices and sometimes break. There's some, but not a lot, of variation between individual manufacturers in the frequency with which they break. And that's not very interesting, and doesn't justify the kind of outrage I'm seeing in threads like this.
Whatever has you guys all puffed up about this, it's not genuine concern for poor Tesla owners who spend 15% more time in the shop, or whatever.
Tesla owners love their cars. This means they tend to overlook issues others might find unacceptable. If my car just refused to drive until I restarted it a few times, that would be a catastrophic fuckup. But I’ve seen Tesla owners shrug that away.
Which is fine! There have always been legendary cars with notorious maintenance issues. But base reliability matters to most, and it matters to track that neutrally.
Did Consumer Reports look at FSD? I don't think optional features like that factor into reliability.
* Model S third brake light has single LEDs failing one by one
* Model X doors don't open in sub-zero weather, friends of us had an ICE rental car for weeks last winter
* All models, automatic activation of rear driving lights at night does not work
* All models, cruise control or something will sometimes suddenly slam the brakes on wide open road, so you need to keep good distance
* Model 3 and Y automatic high beams / matrix LED don't function correctly at night if the car is dirty, they blind everyone on the road - I will be very surprised if this doesn't trigger a recall soon
* Model X front driving light clusters failing, I've seen several, all on the passenger side
* Model 3 and Y, rear lights plastic cracking like it's a 1980s Hyundai
Is that what that is? I thought it was my eyes getting older when thinking car headlights are brighter at night than they used to be. We live in an area with a high % of Teslas on the road and this could explain a lot.
Then in the past 3-4 years, matrix LED lights became popular, where you have an array of LEDs with narrow beam optics that are aimed in a slight spread, so that each LED covers a specific area of the road ahead. Then there is a sensor that detects oncoming traffic, and dims the one or two LEDs that point towards those cars.
On the Model 3 and Y there seems to be a particularly frequent failure mode with the matrix LED where the lights, or sometimes just one of them, doesn't detect oncoming traffic at all. It also occurs when they are driving behind someone.
Couple of weeks ago I was behind such a Tesla at night, and I had to just let him get far in front of me, because he kept getting blinked at with the ultra-powered high beams of every oncoming semi trailer. Of course the poor driver couldn't do a thing about it.
You saw this on all models, on the road and/or in your neighborhood? (I mean surely not, but I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion.)