How To Fight Sexism in Silicon Valley
chrisyeh.blogspot.com
chrisyeh.blogspot.com
In every one of these that gets to a couple hundred comments, we end up with two big groups that appear: "bros" that are "just having fun" and y'all need to "lighten up", or some stereotype of a misogynistic engineer that hates women because women consistently slighted the character throughout his life. In the first case, you have to fight a subculture that commoditizes women; in the second, you have to fight years of maladaptive behavior, and negative feedback from a cycle of sexual and social ostracization, where their defense became vilification.
Both of those cases are going to be really tough to change in the short-term. In the best case scenario we'll get a few to see the light, but when there are emotional ties to this type of behavior there is a lot of cognitive dissonance that has to be cut through before any change is truly realized. In the tougher cases all we will actually do for the present generation is bury sexist sentiment into a back channel somewhere, which doesn't help the end cause.
Yes, let's lead by example, but let's also try to start at the origin and get things sorted out before such discriminatory practices can get deeply rooted. Go talk to some college engineering teams. Let's get more women involved in the things that these guys are doing, and give them equal opportunity to show their abilities; the culture is often more meritocratic than not. Take it one step further if you have kids, and teach them that gender roles are just as bad as racism. The bros will realize that their actions are slowly being obsolesced, and the shunned will be proportionally less so. It takes work from both ends and we are really only ever pushing one angle hard.
EDIT: Drastically rewritten in hopes of being clearer.
EDIT 2: Minor bits and pieces, again.
I'm not saying that there's nothing we can do now, but the kind of change you're looking for isn't likely to just happen overnight because you don't feel like waiting for it. These things have lots of momentum and emotion behind them.
Well that (it not being fixed anytime soon) is a big problem.
a lot of this discrimination appears generational and likely won't be solved shortly by this method of self-correction.
Actually, the evidence is otherwise. For example, in the linked post:
Traditionally, high tech has been dominated by young Caucasian and Asian males (go back another 20 years, and it was just Caucasian males). Like many other parts of society, entrepreneurship has become more inclusive.
Additionally, the "typical" YCombinator startup is full of young people (who often are male). The "it's the old generation" argument doesn't stack up, and the "wait for them to die" solution is unacceptable.
It's hard to see how either of these groups are easily changed by blog posts, "awareness" of the issue, or even pure coercion.
Actually, it does seem to work. Find me an example of a startup that acted in a sexist way and continued that behaviour after it was highlighted.
The truth is that awareness is one of the things that has been shown to work, and even if there are additional things that can help additional awareness is not a bad thing.
What I'm trying to get at is that awareness alone is not going to solve this issue, and we are very narrowly focused on this "Be aware!" thing. You're not going to self-correct big things like this; in a lot of cases you might truly correct it but you will just as much bury the sentiment in others who truly believe these types of things.
EDIT: Also, I don't understand how the quote you referenced is evidence otherwise, but perhaps we're miscommunicating. Rewrote my post in hopes of being a little clearer.
If this is true, then increasing awareness can have a significant impact on culture.
Be aware of the environmental issues, don't tolerate flare ups even if a person is technically competent, think about how you could be a little more welcoming. Doing that would be a huge first step and will do a lot towards making the generational changes you're talking about reality.
We all, collectively, have the power to make technology an environment welcome to all races, creeds, and biological persuasions. Do as much as you can personally and try to make sure other people are aware of the issue.
I've noticed that pointing out the problem correctly usually works great, because nowadays most people don't do it out of spite, as the article said.
I couldn't disagree more. Sexism will end when we (1) educate people about what constitutes sexism, (2) stop tolerating it.
Everyone can help with (1) to some degree. Not every one is in a position to do (2), but those that can, such as the many startup founders that read HN, should.
It seems to me that in your post you are doing the opposite of both. You are arguing that we should stop talking about it, and that we should tolerate it.
Read my last paragraph in my post again, please. What I'm trying to get at is that if you want to really squash an issue let's do more than the easy thing of "awareness". Why don't we actually get involved somewhere else? Help out in the places where this type of crap actually originated and keep it from happening in the end. Try to prevent the problem, don't just suppress it when it arises in certain cases. It seems the better long-term solution; IMO it's easier to correct less-formed opinions and put people on the right track then. "How to correct sexism in Silicon Valley" isn't just "hey, get mad at people when they say something out of line", it's also "hey, let's try to get people to understand why this hurts us in the first place".
You'd have to be really clueless to read it and then make the same mistake that they did. For better or worse, public ridicule is an incredibly effective tool for changing behavior. It changes the behavior not just of the person who was ridiculed, but of everyone who saw it happen.
So yes, I think it is totally realistic to change people's behavior today, "by getting mad at them when they say something out of line." It's unpleasant for everyone concerned, but it works.
Your "better long-term solution" sure is "easier" for us men, but it's not easier for the women...
Also, fundamentally what you are doing is excusing sexist behavior. You're saying "these people, in some sense, aren't fully in control of their actions; it's not their fault that they didn't get the appropriate training as children; it's too hard for them to change." I think that that is a harmful idea to advance. First of all, it gives people cover when they behave inappropriately. Second, it's disempowering -- nobody wants to be thought of as a helpless case that can't change.
I'm not saying that this article doesn't help, but I'm saying it's the equivalent of pouring water on a fire, and we're ignoring the systemic cultural stuff that started the fire in the first place. What I'm arguing is we need to stop thinking "Pour water on this until it goes out" and also make sure that we take away the fuel for such behavior by trying to solve many of these problems earlier.
But on a more serious note, you cannot equate anti-male sexism with anti-female sexism, not yet, because one has a history of being both the oppressed gender and the exploited class, and the other just the exploited class.
Behaviour that discriminates on the basis on gender is.
The fact that a field lacks gender balance isn't the point. The point is that whatever the field, people shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable.
Don't just fight the symptoms, fight the reason/root/cause as well.
(?)
> misogynistic engineer that hates women
> such discriminatory practices can get deeply rooted.
Really, guys did you even stop to think about what is sexsim, what is discriminatory?
What is the vision of your ideal society: genderless, bland, wrapped in burkas?
If flashing pictures of bikini-clad women starts to consistently bring negative attention, people will stop doing it. I am happy to see this meme (talking about sexism, and what people can do about it) continue.
How long before we start to censor any depiction of a human everywhere? Destroying "sexist" art?
Picture has nothing to do with the app? Who the fuck cares? Let's just all cut out all wiring in our brains that makes us to pay attention to one of the "four Fs" and die out.
I'm not saying people should run around flashing a thought police badge. But if you see something you think is wrong, speak up.
Every time I see this tired old trope trotted out again it has two distinct effects on me personally:
1.) I start worrying about my own interactions with the females in my team 2.) I stop thinking about technology and innovation
...and I'm tired of it.
Take the feminist struggle such as it is in 2012 to the world of politics from whence it comes.
You have something of value to contribute to the world of technology? Do it.
It is not in the spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship to complain about and dissect the words and actions of those who clearly know no better, it is in the spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship to Do.
This squabbling is for children and politicians. Leave it to them.
Go and Do.
I'm sorry you find this tiring.
And although it's good that you think about your own interactions with the people in your team, it worries me that you use the word squabbling. That word to me implies that you don't think the subject being discussed is actually important. It is.
You shouldn't devote all your energies to avoiding every possible way you could give offense. It's enough to listen when people bring up their concerns and try your best to respect them.
You have something of value to contribute to the world of technology? Do it.
If you want to be respected start by acting respectfully towards others.
The real solution is to be ruthless and fire or eject anyone immediately for doing as something as incredibly fucking stupid as putting sexually provocative pictures in a presentation. The level of professionalism that conveys is indescribably embarrassing.
The author of the post was way too nice. I would have stopped the presenters in the middle of their deck and humiliated them publicly in front of everyone.
Can you imagine if a presenter did this at a sales meeting at a high end client? Say a financial institution, or Google? It would be the end of their career.
Whether inserting reddit into presentations is an appropriate means of lightening the mood or plain immature is another discussion.