Car dealers say they can't sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
arstechnica.com
arstechnica.com
>> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.
IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people.
It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers.
I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.
Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?
Used car? Very little
New car? I've found a few good ones, and much of what they need to say is verifiable (e.g., in the specs in a brochure / official website).
I think the point was that customers can't even get basic info out of these people, and they aren't even offering their usual level of encouragement to buy. I.e., the car sales people (and the managers failing to provide training) are not doing their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, then the companies should be able to route around them.
Dealerships (maintenance and new sales), Oil/Exhaust/Brake, and Gas stations will decimated -- as car owners no longer have a system that neglect (oil, coolant, high temp exhaust, high temp seals and sensors) causes an end of life event.
At most, battery packs will be neglected when cars sit, but vehicles today with a the sensors and systems that run lithium ion batteries safely will reduce many of the impacts of neglect.
But mostly new sales, even used market sales; the interior will be the primary part of a vehicle that ages (ignoring the effect of salt on roads)
Tesla is often solving these with mobile mechanics and regional service centers.
And ICE cars will not magically disappear overnight off the roads though. Service centers still have at least 20+ years of work for them of ICE + EV combined. It should be enough to plan your business accordingly like selling it or pivoting to something else if you think the EV future is too low margin for that business.
Versus oil changes get customers in the shop every 5-10k miles / 1 year; Coolant changes every 2-5 years. The best analog is tire changes on Evs.
Yes, collision shops will still be needed, but are rarely a direct dealer service (the majority of dealers do not have paint shops).
The top mechanical issues; Engines (from oil change negligence), and transmissions will no longer exist in the drivetrain. (Sensor failure will be relatively minimal as no sensors are exposed to constant 200 degree heat or oil or gasoline).
From a duration perspective; dealers may support 100k mile, 10 year warranties, but when we see 50% EV adoption, it will be like finding obsolete ford parts from the 50s in no time for 10+ year old vehicles.
Base MSRP: S1 $49,995
+ Destination: S17 $1,995
= Total MSRP: S16 $51,990
= Est. Net Price: S5 $51,990
The XLTs are a bit better with about a half-dozen or so at the $55,990, also within 100 miles.
Most of the Lightning inventory is loaded and far above those base model prices. We're not even talking $60k, we're talking $75-90k...For an F-150 and today's interest rates...
Problem, currently I can’t get solar (townhome, old roof, HOA). And without solar, with PG&E prices which keep going up, I’m not really sure EVs make a lot of sense given their cost and the fact I’ll have to spend $5-$10K (not exactly sure) to install the 240V charger.
One of our cars is a plug in hybrid, so with 110V overnight charging for many trips and gas range for longer trips we get the best of both.
Our next car might also be a plug-in or a hybrid. EV, I just don’t see a good option ( sorry, FWIW, not going to consider a Tesla due to Musk)
OTOH, I hate oil changes, so that is my personal reason to go full EV since technically they require less routine maintenance as they are simpler.
But you do make an interesting point, that marginal might be lower which may change the math. Hadn’t considered that.
I've owned 3 EVs since 2016 and I've been to franchise dealerships each time. I've been to dealerships both with and without dedicated or specially trained EV sales reps.
Sales reps who've not had any specific training on selling EVs, working in dealerships with no dedicated EV showroom space are _terrible_ at selling EVs IME. At best they're disinterested in making a sale, at worst they actively discourage you with all the common EV related FUD.
Showrooms with dedicated space to showcase EV product offerings, information about EVs and which have marketing material actively incentivising the benefits of an EV, also have sales reps who are knowledgeable, helpful, and actively seeking to close a sale.
EV’s will never be a viable option until they are better in every facet than a combustion engine.
The charging is cumbersome and much longer than filling a gas tank, hard pass.
I would buy a combustion engine car, even if it was more expensive, for this reason alone.
An 80% charge at 350kW would take under 10.5 minutes even for a semi-large 75kW/h battery*, you'd barely have the time to hit the bathroom and order a fast food meal to consume in the car - and this will gradually become the new baseline, from which you can expect further improvements down the line.
* it would actually take more if you showed up with a completely empty battery - the first 10ish % needs to be slower, to protect the battery - but in reality you would NOT plan to reach a charger with such little range remaining, so it would actually take you quite a bit less. A 15% to 80% charge on a 75kW/h battery at 350kW would take 8m21s.
* 350kW chargers are rare, cars able to take the charge even more. (I have Enyaq, charge is capped around 150kW, never saw it charging faster). The most common charger in the wild is around 50kW
* 100kW+ chargers are insanely expensive. It is cheaper to drive ICE than charge on those.
* Chargers are often broken
* You are assuming that there is nobody in front of you. Good luck getting your 8 minutes with 2 other cars waiting to charge as well.
* 8 minutes is still slower than getting a gas to an ICE
Uh... Where in the world are you seeing this? And what kind of mpg, miles / kWh, $/gallon, and $/kWh are we talking?
Enel X - Charging points in Italy: 0,69€/kWh for AC charging points, 0,89€/kWh for DC charging points up to 150 kW and 0,99€/kWh for DC charging points over 150 kW (HPC)
• Charging points outside Italy: 0,70€/kWh for AC charging points, 0,95€/kWh for DC charging points up to 150kW and 0,99€/kWh for DC charging points above 150kW
Those are just two charging network known for high power chargers on European highways, which I can get top out of my head.
Lots of people, including myself, can't do this.
Battery levels, not hydration or bladder levels, are the limiting factor of EV trips.
Fortunately legislation is coming to force all of them to take credit/debit cards, and standards like Autocharge will also help.
Oh it's so easy and convenient!
You are being short sighted, yeah in ideal conditions, it's OK. But what about.
You're pulling into your home just about on empty, plug it in walk inside, then a get a phone call from your dad who lives 2 hours away "Mom just had a terrible accident, and is in the hospital, were not sure she can make it, get to the hospital as soon as your can!" Now your dumb ass has to sit and panic and stress while you wait for your stupid EV to charge. On top of that now your playing this guessing game, "What is the least amount of charge I need to get to the hospital, what if I underestimate just a bit and run out of charge 10 miles out, then I would be even later than if just let it charged a bit more".
What if you car is low on charge, you go plug in it, then a storm comes ripping through, electricity is out, it's out for days, your fucking stuck, sorry.
I think people are vastly under estimating the "I HAVE TO LEAVE RIGHT THE FUCK NOW" value you have with a combustion engine.
Emergencies happen, electricity goes out, I would happily pay more for a vehicle that didn't have these terrible drawbacks.
God forbid I call a car for this once in a 1000 lifetimes scenario.
And yeah, God forbid you move from something with more flexibility and freedom (a combustion engine), to something with less (an EV).
I don’t wish anyone ever go from more to less freedom and flexibility.
The “derp it’s only 20 min to charge” is a bad argument. You are asking me to go from 2 min or less to 20+ min. That’s a 900% increase and is totally unacceptable.
My EV is on average “fuller” than my diesel was since my commute uses 10% per day and it gets recharged every night, whereas my diesel would wait until 1/6th full at least until a fill up.
There's a reason car sales in NYC are still sub-1% EVs.
Who has the time to sit around or park their car for an hour for every 20 miles they drive?
If you take NYC for example, EV parking spaces are big bucks and for the few available public infrastructure places, most of the spots are being occupied full time by city parks department vehicles that rarely if ever leave the charger.
As far as taking your question literally, you should talk to people in the midwest more -- I know lots of folks in the Dakotas and Wyoming with crazy schedules and 4hr commutes because that's literally the closest work.
Add in Alaska.
And you're at 3m citizens of 282m vehicles. (< ~1% if every citizen of these 4 states has a vehicle)
Also way to pick out the least significant part of what I said to have a gripe about.
33% allows for 33x the population you're citing; and has an additional 9 years to get there.
The reality is that each has different constraints. Sitting around waiting for a charge on road trips seems annoying. Never having to "get gas" for local trips seems awesome.
During my ownership I did 3 longer trips. Total charge time is about 1.5 hours.
Insurance rates are much higher because of the extremely high repair costs for even minor collisions. Consequently EVs are 'totaled' much more easily than equivalent hybrid or gas vehicles. Eastern Europe is doing a booming business in refurbished EVs shipped over from the US.
Then there are the issues of battery production and disposal which can do a lot to mitigate the environmental benefits of an EV.
These details, aside from charging, weren't readily apparent at first. But they are real and they are expensive.
have they tried improving the quality of the cars?
the poors need reliable transportation to get to their workplace to feed their families and pay rent
https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-pi...
Tesla packaged their early vehicles with unlimited super charging for life - and a nation wide network -- with test road trips publicized; and if you buy a GM/Ford today you have to pull up to a heavily Tesla branded station, pay a premium, use an adapter --- or pull up to chargers that are often slow and unmaintained, with waiting lines, and require a different app at every different station.
But nope, a stock buyback.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance...
Cry me a fucking river.
So if you want the actual price (and thereby to avoid the "we told you $X, but it's actually $X+Y" mess that makes dealers look like slimy crooks), then they need enough information to tell you the actual price. You want an estimate? They might give you one, with some amount of uncertainty. You want an accurate number? You have to give them every single bit of information that affects the price.
They were the worst with EVs and Hybrids. In the meantime, with work from home, a lot of people are realizing they don't need a car. Everyone else's car payment is going to doubled grocery prices and doubled rents. Also, good luck buying anything affordable, because the lots are filled with F-150s and SUVs.
There's still affordable car makers in the west. Meet the Dacia Duster 2024 Hybrid SUV, starting at 20K, up to 30K fully loaded (Europe only). Probably gonna sell like hotcakes.
https://insideevs.com/news/698182/tesla-insurance-track-day-...
It’s the normal taddle tail addon plugs into your obd2 port other insurances have to reduce your rates if you drive 4am-10pm, less than 85, and don’t hard brake or rates go up.