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Comment by Mister_Snuggles | Hacker News Reader

I've got a bunch of Xiaomi Aqara Zigbee water leak sensors and they have alerted me to leaks which could have caused a lot of damage if not caught right away. The siren on this Ikea one is a very obvious improvement and the price seems to be in line with the Xiaomi sensors that I currently use.

The motion sensor looks like a decent improvement on the existing one. I have to admit that I don't have the battery life issues that many people seem to have with the current model, but I've only got two of these sensors so maybe I got lucky.

The door sensor looks weird though. It seems a lot larger than the equivalent Xiaomi Aqara sensor. Maybe it uses AAA batteries instead of coin cells or something.

Generally speaking, I really like the Ikea Zigbee stuff. Everything I've got is well-supported by Zigbee2MQTT, including OTA updates. Most of my Ikea stuff has never even been paired to Ikea's hub.

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I would be worried about putting anything Xiaomi into my home. They have repeatedly proven to be a major privacy concern. Maybe security concern as well.

That is a valid concern, but not such an issue with Zigbee stuff since you can run it with your own hub giving the sensors 0 external connectivity.

Their sensors are fine, just use a non-Xiaomi hub like SONOFF Zigbee 3.0 USB Dongle.

Sonoff is chinese, doesn't fix the security issue

What's the threat model for a usb dongle? It won't have network access... I suppose it could spontaneously become an HID device and try typing its way to trouble, but that'd be very OS-specific...

USB is like the most well known physical threat. Look up OMG Cables.

Right, but that's intended for the attacker to connect to from nearby? Also of course presumably if it's got enough hardware crammed in there to cost $170 random Chinese tech companies are not going to include all of that in their $25 dongle "just in case" you turn out to be worth compromising?

I think you are overestimating the cost of inclusion. Surely you have had mandatory IT training about not plugging in unknown usb drives at work right?

Yes, but my work laptop is not a Zigbee hub that I randomly plug unknown USB devices into.

I am more worried about US stuff with the whole PRISM thing and other three letter shenanigans.

Aditionally the comment you are replying to is a dongle to provide a single board computer (or a computer in general) with ZigBee conectivity.

Ideally you would run a trusthworthy open source OS and hub software.

Agreed, I would rather a foreign agency with no power or authority over me to have my personal data than a government that has the authority to wrongfully tax, investigate, jail, prosecute, and imprison me for that same data.

Now I'm imagining a self destructing roborock vacuum burning down my house when China goes deep in anti US territory.

Best policy I abide by is to prevent any data from exiting my network or remote control period. I don't care who is spying.

Most likely you won't have that problem because the power grid will be offline.

You should choose the devices that are the most secure, using the information you have available at the time.

Choosing a foreign government to spy on you rather than your own government isn't a clear choice. While a foreign government is less likely to be interested in you personally and likely less able to directly cause you harm, you also have less recourse against them than against your own government and their interests are less likely to be aligned with yours.

Additionally, your government may be able to co-opt the compromised devices anyway and would certainly have an incentive to do so.

I'd also question that a device that is by-design-compromised is otherwise secure from bad actors. It is difficult to imagine the incentive structure that would make that possible.

Finally, once this personal data has been harvested by either government, there is nothing to stop these governments or rogue elements within these governments from trading or sharing that data with your own government or other actors.

I don't chose to be spied on by any government! But if I could chose only one, it would be an opposing country like China or Russia.

American businesses are forced to share our private data witn three letter agencies. Conversely, I can't imagine any leverage, money or lawful, that would cause a Chinese citizen living in China, with families in China, to be so stupid as to collaborate with the US government in any way, unless they wish for their families to be sent to labor camps.

My data is safer with the Chinese. I don't like it, but that's where we stand with our privacy.

The problem is that the American government has shown time and time again that their interests are not in any way, shape, or form aligned with that of the public.

At this point, I’d trust a (likely) disinterested state actor over one that has been proven to be actively malicious.

A dongle loads drivers through USB fyi.

If you're more worried about the US then China, we must live in a different world :)

My Sonoff Zigbee dongle presents itself on my Linux home server as a USB serial device (/dev/ttyUSB0) which gets forwarded to the zigbee2mqtt container which talks to it. Perhaps under a different host OS it might try to deploy something nefarious, but I'm not particularly concerned.

And what about the non technical people, the majority :)?

Will they have the same setup?

Those people probably aren't buying USB dongles that depend on a server in the first place; They're using one of the many "hub" devices out there instead (with varying degrees of privacy and network security).

Why wouldn't they buy a zigbee USB dongle? ...

Because it presupposes owning and administering a server to host it, which seems like it would exclude someone from the "non-technical user" segment?

These Zigbee sticks don’t have much opportunity for naughtiness. Like others I’ve used, they communicate over serial with their host (no IP ), and are based on a TI chipset which you can flash.

As other's mentioned, they communicate via serial to the host, this is not a device I'd be greatly concerned about as a threat.

Unless you took great care with sourcing your electronics then they're already packed with chips/parts from china.

If you _really_ want to you can use a nRF52840 (Nordic Semi is from Norway), or I think a few TI chips (USA), and use those as a gateway instead with home assistant (might need to add an extra library). Even then, both companies have manufacturing plants in china AFAIK so...

All of my Xiaomi stuff is Zigbee and runs through Zigbee2MQTT, I'm not too concerned here since there's no Xiaomi stuff that's capable of connecting to anything except my Zigbee adapter.

> They have repeatedly proven to be a major privacy concern. Maybe security concern as well.

Thanks to Zigbee being a standard, you can use a Zigbee hub/adapter from any vendor you like. The Zigbee sensors themselves have no network connection and therefore noway to warrant privacy concerns really. There is no WiFi/Ethernet or internet involved with anything Xiaomi here.

I'm using a bunch of these Aquara Zigbee sensors with the open source Home Assistant software and hardware, they are for the most part fantastic.

I would take Zigbee home automation devices over crappy wifi ones any day of the week - its a vastly better protocol/methodology for hooking these sorts of devices up. Your home's lights functioning properly ideally should not depend on bulbs/switches being able to get an IP address etc (sigh)...

> https://www.home-assistant.io/skyconnect - USB adapter for Zigbee from HomeAssistant you can plug into any box you like.

> https://www.home-assistant.io/yellow/ - HomeAssistant server hardware with Zigbee radio built in.

The Aqara temperature sensors[0] wouldn't stay connected to my SkyConnect USB dongle. No issues with my Zigbee switch and thermostats though, so I think some vendors aren't fully Zigbee compliant but it's probably the exception.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D37FKGY/

I've had great results with their buttons/light switches and Home Assistant Yellow, and the SkyConnect prior to that, for what its worth. I especially like the PoE version of Home Assistant Yellow - can power the entire server from its ethernet port.

What would you recommend for a ZigBee thermostat?

I'm not who you asked, but I replaced my baseboard heater thermostats with the Sinope Zigbee ones and have been very happy with them. I think their products only work with heating systems though, not heat + A/C.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PQTF53D

Do you use ZHA? I had to change to zigbee2mqtt (and thus get more compatible device to go with it) to make my Aqara sensors stop disconnecting.

Probably? It's a SkyConnect on Home Assistant OS.

That's the beauty of Zigbee. You can run your own hub if you want, and no information leaves your home. Of course this is less, or not at all, true if you run a manufacturer's hub.

It's zigbee.

Run your own Conbee stick and the value is off the charts.

I started with a Conbee plus deCONZ and it worked very well.

I've since switched to a SLZB-06[0] plus Zigbee2MQTT and it's incredible.

[0] https://smlight.tech/product/slzb-06/

I'm glad it's working well for gou.

What are the advantages of that over a Conbee?

My Zigbee network is completely flawless and the Conbee picks up pretty much any device.

Pretty hard to improve on that I'd think.

There were two things that pushed me to the SLZB-06:

* deCONZ was slow to get new device support and I had purchased some devices that weren't supported (Ikea STARKVIND) at the time. I think this has been improved since I last used it though.

* The SLZB-06 can be powered by PoE which gives it a lot more flexibility than anything connected by USB. Also, since it's not USB-connected, it's a lot easier to deal with (no need to figure out USB passthrough, etc).

I see, I appreciate the knowledge of your experiences.

I'm running HA in a host-privileged docker on my system so it's fairly ergonomic, I'm sure there's room for security improvement there, though.

How have you found the battery life to be on your Ikea zigbee devices? Mine have been generally disappointing. In the range of 3 months on the dimmers that are maybe 10 feet from the hub. Just got a couple of their newer dimmers, hoping those will be better. The pairing experience was certainly less painful.

Zigbee2mqtt is the bomb. ZHA can't hold a candle to it in terms of reliability, features and device support. The tiny increase in complexity is so worth it.

I find that the battery life seems fine, but I haven't tracked it closely.

I have noticed a difference between Duracell coin cells purchased at Costco and Amazon Basics coin cells. The Amazon Basics ones didn't last long at all, the Duracells seem much better.

The newer dimmers (STYRBAR) use AAA cells instead of coin cells, so I'd expect them to last a lot longer.

I'll try switching up battery brands. The out of the box cells from Ikea were dead in weeks, the store brand ones at least gave me a few months.

Battery brands (or even skus in the brands) can matter a _lot_.

Related, Panasonic's rechargable eneloop have worked very well for me, I'm kind of excited to see AAA be used in the IOT devices where it can fit.

I have a lot less of a problem swapping batteries if I just have a few charged ones on hand and get at least many months in-between replacements.

>Related, Panasonic's rechargable eneloop have worked very well for me

Just a heads up: IKEA's brand of rechargables are likely rebadged eneloops at about half the price, also made in japan. Though for the AAA's they only have eneloop regular equivalents not eneloop pros.

Top tip: IKEA rechargeable batteries are probably rebadged Eneloop Pros.

What exactly do you mean by a "dimmer"? Everything I have in my home that dims lights is mains-powered, so battery isn't a concern.

I have 45 Zigbee devices in my home, 33 of which are battery-powered. Those are door contact sensors, PIR motion sensors, climate sensors, and a few button remotes to control lighting. They're mostly from Sonoff and Aqara, with a few unbranded Aliexpress devices that identify themselves as TUYATEC, and a couple from Third Reality. In almost every case, the battery life has been extraordinarily good -- well over a year. The only exception is the Sonoff SNZB-04 contact sensor, which seems to need battery changes about every six months. Probably not coincidentally, it's the only sensor that uses CR2032 batteries, rather than AA or AAA. I would happily replace with a slightly larger sensor to get both longer battery life and less e-waste through the ability to use a standard rechargeable AA/AAA battery.

Ikea refers to several of their zigbee remotes as dimmers. This is the older one that I've had issues with:

https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/tradfri-wireless-dimmer-smart-w...

This is the newer one: https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/p/rodret-wireless-dimmer-power-sw...

I have a few SmartThings motion sensors that are at 2-3 years battery life, though they use big lithium cells so that isn't surprising. A few sonoff temp/humidity sensors on coin cells seem to be heading for at least a year battery life as well. So far it's only the Ikea buttons that have issues.

You probably have battery issues because you are using SmartThings as the zigbee hub and it's polling the remote way too much.

I have switched to HomeAssistant with a Zigbee USB adaptor and there are no more battery issues.

SmartThings are aware of the issue but do not care enough to fix it.

I do use a few SmartThings branded zigbee sensors but not the hub. I'm using homeassistant with the sonoff efr32mg21 dongle.

I'm well aware of how terrible SmartThings the company is. I'd suffered through their inadequacies until April 2023 when they deleted my account during a failed backup purge. After 3 months of waiting on their support to unlock my hub I gave up and went to homeassistant.

Understood. This won't help you much, but I don't think I've ever had to change a remote's battery in the three years since I switched over to Zigbee. I assume their radios wake up only when the button is pressed, which is at most a few times a day, so the battery drain should be minimal. I use Home Assistant with a Sonoff Zigbee-USB coordinator, just as you do.

Those Ikea buttons look pretty ordinary, so I can't think of why they'd have such poor battery life. But they seem to be the only difference between our respective systems.

These are the buttons I use most: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802252738635.html

You need to upgrade the firmware on both your devices + controllers, this is a known problem that I think is mostly resolved now.

I'm up to date on both the coordinator firmware and device firmware. Updating the coordinator firmware was necessary to get device updates working on the newer Ikea devices, but I haven't noticed a difference in power consumption. Adding repeaters and reconverging didn't seem to make a difference either.

My STYRBAR dimmers last for more than a year, definitely. But they’re only used like < 10 times a day.

I'm seeing poor life regardless of usage. I'm guessing that either something is chatty in that part of the network, or some config is set incorrectly and causing them to wake more often or more fully than they should. No idea how to troubleshoot either case, just hoping the newer aaa-powered buttons might be better.

I got at least a dozen on/off/dimmer switches and couple of sensors. They last months, and I would maybe say even a year. I do use those coin Duracell batteries most of the time, makes quite a difference.

I have a handful of Aqara motion sensors because some idiots on Youtube recommended them. They're shit compared to the Hue motion sensors though, and take 3+ seconds to respond while I look like an idiot waving my hands around and sometimes even need to take off my shirt and wave it like a flag to get the lights to turn on. The Hue motion sensors respond almost instantly in comparison.

All this low power electronics designed to run 3 years on a coin battery bothers me. If it's that low power why not get rid of the battery, slap a tiny solar panel (the kind they used on calculators in the 90s) and a supercapacitor, it should be able to power itself indefinitely on normal levels of room light, never go into deep sleep states, and can even turn the room lights on automatically if it needs more power.

I don't have any Aqara motion sensors. I do have two Ikea ones though and they work fine.

One is in my home office to turn the lights on and off, it works fine and I've never had problems with it not detecting me. It's not instant, but always responds within a second or two.

The other one is sitting by the cat litter boxes and is used to trigger an automation involving an air cleaner. It senses the cats at a range of about 1.5m just fine.

The next thing I'm interested in is the crop of mmWave presence sensors. There are a lot out there and I'm not sure if there's a clear winner in this space yet.

Ironically, I do I have the Aqara mmWave presence sensor and my experience with it has been pretty good. It is powered on 5V from the wall though, which makes aesthetics a little harder to manage.

> Maybe it uses AAA batteries instead of coin cells or something.

It does, which is a big selling point for me. I’m trying to standardise on rechargable AA/AAA batteries wherever possible. A lot of devices recommend you only use alkaline batteries because of the extra voltage but I haven’t actually found one that doesn’t function on 1.2v eneloops yet.

All the new contact sensors seem to be that large now, including Philips' and Aqara's new ones. They do indeed use larger batteries and they claim several years of use. But man they are so bulky I don't see myself using them. Total eyesores.

I really like this change and suspect the reason why is part of their motivation; they button cells used in the common smaller ones are non-rechargeable and this is really quite wasteful given how popular and good AA/AAA Rechargeables are

Are they good really? Like half of my AAA devices don't even work on 1.2V. I've dabbled in USB-C rechargeable Li- Ion AA/AAA, but they're quite expensive and the charge lasts a short time. They're mostly useful in remotes and things like that, kind of like NiMH rechargeables.

Meanwhile nonrechargeable batteries get cheaper and cheaper so I just buy them in bulk now. Call me selfish, I guess.

The USB-C ones trade on capacity and different ones have different self-discharge rates. Some manufacturers specify Panasonic Eneloop batteries. Some other brands’ are made by the same company and are very similar (including IKEA)

You can purchase rechargeable coin-cell batteries. Device manufactures tend not to care about batteries except for the crappy one they ship in the box - if they bother to do so.

Do you put water sensors anywhere besides the obvious places, like under the sink and water heater?

Back of the toilets.

Quite a number of leaks come from the braided pipe feeding water to your cistern, as they often only have a five-year lifetime

Next to any condensate pumps, like you'd have for air conditioning, maybe for a dehumidifier.

Mine are basically under every water-using appliance, plus some extra ones in the basement in places where there is a risk of water ingress.

I've also built a sensor (HC-SR04, ESP32, ESPHome, Home Assistant) to monitor the water level in my sump pit so that I can make sure the pumps are working.

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