X Has Become a 'Global Sewer,' Mayor of Paris Says
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
Elon is literally suing for speech he doesn't like.
Clearly different from some random internet person saying something controversial or unpopular.
Also: does anyone think those big accounts just up and left after one shoestring organization published something?
They most likely replicated the results themselves.
It doesn't represent an actual experience though, it's deliberate and misleading since that curation was left out of the report.
Probably also has something to do with the kinds of ugly stuff the owner of Twitter has been boosting lately.
Well anyway, let's all continue speculating...
No such logs have been produced, FWIW. They made some vague claims in the original suit, but haven't backed it up. Broadly the claim amounts to: Media Matters created burner accounts that follow a bunch of nazis, racists, and other hateful accounts, and did it so that they could embarrass X when it got served ads for Disney products or whatever.
And, maybe that's true. Media Matters is an in-the-trenches democratic political organ, and Musk has coded himself conservative in his current incarnation. He's an enemy, and they're going to go after him. That's just politics.
But I don't see how you get from there to damages. It's certainly not libel; Media Matters did, after all, tell the truth. Nor is it fraud. X really did serve the ads, and the content really was hateful. Anyone else following those hate accounts would get the same content, Media Matters didn't "hack the algorithm", they just followed a lot of evil nonsense.
Exactly. What people don’t seem to realize is that neo-Nazi content is allowed, and there is not a extant mechanism for Twitter advertisers to make sure that their ads do not appear next to that allowed neo-Nazi content — this is why Twitter verified that fact in their lawsuit.
The lawsuit is meritorious because while there was no malfunction on Twitter’s part, they contend that accepting advertisers’ money and occasionally showing it next to neo-Nazi content simply isn’t that big of a deal. The misleading part is introducing the idea that advertisers should expect that not to happen.
I look forward to further lawsuits against users such as these
https://www.techdirt.com/2023/11/27/elons-censorial-lawsuit-...
This seems contradictory. You're saying that the lawsuit doesn't say the report is inaccurate, but rather that it's not correct?
Is your comment based on a distinction between the words accurate/inaccurate and correct/incorrect?
>Twitter is suing under the “who cares” and “shut up” doctrine.
You're saying that the lawsuit is meritorious, while conceding that there is no legal basis for the lawsuit? Am I missing something?
Incorrect. For example, from the complaint[0]:
> As extensively explained above, these statements made by Defendant Media Matters were false.
Though to be fair, the lawsuit never bothers to explain how they're false or offer any actual evidence to that effect. It doesn't even attempt to cite the legal elements of any of the claims that are listed, nor does it establish any facts that one could even tangentially connect to the claims asserted.
I have a law degree (though I don't currently practice law). I doubt this lawsuit will survive a motion for summary judgment. I would even go so far as to expect that Elon/Twitter will probably be paying for Media Matters' attorney's fees for the utterly frivolous nature of the complaint.
[0] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txnd.38...
> leaving the false impression that these pairings are anything but what they actually are: manufactured, inorganic, and extraordinarily rare.
Those last two terms mean they're admitting Media Matters' allegations are true, even if they're uncommon.
No. Twitter is suing under the “who cares”, “shut up” and “no u” doctrine, which you can do in courts that do not have anti-SLAPP rules in place.
>The company filed its lawsuit in Texas, which is neither its nor Media Matters’ primary place of business. As legal blogger Ken White noted, a Texas filing protects X from claims that it filed a strategic lawsuit against public participation (or SLAPP), something it might face in its home base of California.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/20/23970274/x-elon-musk-med...
No, this is incorrect. I believe you're unintentionally conflating two things. Not having an anti-SLAPP law just means that Media Matters won't have the luxury of quickly striking the complaint before having to respond to it.
It does not mean that vexatious litigants are free to file a lawsuit without making actual legal claims recognized by the courts.
Media Matters can (and will) still file a motion for summary judgment to dismiss the complaint, and will almost certainly prevail based on the clear deficiency of the complaint which doesn't even bother to cite the legal elements of the three claims it lists.
So yes, my statement was correct, you just aren't familiar with how it works.
I would rather have my account "censored" then being forced to spends tens of thousands of dollars on lawyers.
He pays for peoples legal funds who have issues with free speech on twitter no matter if he agrees or not.
Before Musk, Twitter's full compliance rate hovered around 50%; since the takeover, it is over 80%.
These countries include China [2] and India [3].
[1] https://restofworld.org/2023/elon-musk-twitter-government-or...
[2] https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/twitte...
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/05/twitter-accuse...
edit: is this not accepted fact, at this point?
Quote — "By “free speech”, I simply mean that which matches the law. I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law. If people want less free speech, they will ask government to pass laws to that effect. Therefore, going beyond the law is contrary to the will of the people." [0]
Quote — "Like I said, my preference is to hew close to the laws of countries in which Twitter operates. If the citizens want something banned, then pass a law to do so, otherwise it should be allowed." [1]
Personally I think this the only sane stance for a corporation like Twitter/X. We shouldn't be looking to capitalist non-democratic corporations as an end-run around governments — especially democratic governments.
[0] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1519036983137509376?lang...
[1] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1523654106745020418?lang...
Yet he has repeatedly demonstrated that this is not, in fact, his standard for free speech. It’s bizarre to pretend that it is.
No he does not.
Nonsense, if your tweet includes swear words of any kind (regardless of whether the sentiment expressed is positive or negative) it will be quietly hidden and your placement score will go down.
Edit: Pointing this out seems to have upset some folk.
The people I follow have a very high signal to noise ratio, so maybe that helps.
What do you see?
It's easily been the most on-point social media experience I've had.
Gouging your eyes out with a screwdriver? Sticking your dick into a blender?
Both are probably less harmful long term than using X.
That just strikes me as downright weird.
My choices are as follows:
Meta vs. X, I choose X
Reddit vs. Hackernews, I choose Hackernews
I couldn't say why I choose either, I guess it's a thirst for content and ultimately, there's a visceral choice that I make that results in X / Hackernews as opposed to Meta / Reddit.
Politics / Politicians
- https://debatepolitics.com/
- https://defendingthetruth.com/
- https://www.houseofpolitics.com/
- https://politicalhotwire.com/
- https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/
Science / Scientists
- https://www.scienceforums.net/
- https://thescienceforum.org/
- https://www.physicsforums.com/
- https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/
- https://forum.cosmoquest.org/
Any decent online community will also have its share of memes. They are inevitableLet me know if any of these hit the mark for you
Edit: Formatting
As long as you don't want to talk about decolonization (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1725645884409401435) or people being cis-gender (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1671370284102819841) or whatever else Elon doesn't like this week.
For the record, neither or these things are what he claims they are.
I saw dozens replicating it last week and I was able to replicate it myself
Later edit: can confirm, I tried it and I got `Visibility limited: this Post may violate X’s rules against Hateful Conduct.`
This is rather disappointing and it might influence my stance on continuing to pay for Premium.
even got an email saying my tweets visibility was limited for the cis tweet but not the trans one
I don't disagree with this stance... I need some substantial proof that posting your opinion without calling for extreme violence is going to get your suspended.
To my knowledge genocide pretty much requires "extreme violence".
For the record, no, decolonization [1] does not mean Jewish genocide, that's his own fever dream, but he's clearly stated that X's position is it does.
At the same time: I don't think it's that straightforward to dismiss concerns about "decolonization", especially not with a simple link to Wikipedia. That decolonization could represent programs known to their authors as means of eradicating Jewish people (and, in particular, the plurality Mizrahim population of Israel) is not a fever dream. That doesn't make it true, but it's not a facially invalid concern.
That advocates of "decolonization" widely responded to the October 7th Hamas Al Aqsa Flood attacks with "decolonization is not a metaphor" does your "fever dream" arguments no favors; those attacks were overtly, expressly genocidal.
Lots of terms have been used as euphemism for lots of things. It makes no sense to declare a word used in many contexts now means only this one thing, because one group of people used it this way. As I said in another thread I'm against allowing people to hide behind euphemism and dog whistles, by all means if someone is talking about decolonization of Israel, take action! But claiming this is the only meaning and a blanket ban is nonsense.
The second, "that decolonization could be genocidal only in fever dreams." is not what I said. I can also think of a few instances of decolonization in history that certainly pushed those boundaries. What I said was that the word decolonization does not inherently mean genocide, much less specifically Jewish genocide, and the belief that it does is a Musk fever dream. I also acknowledge that it would have been clearer if I had clarified that some (Hamas, their supporters) are using it that way and that emotional language, as usual, does little to add to a conversation.
the cis thing is whatever, it should be allowed and it is. but if you use it to harass someone, same as if you used other slurs, it would be taken as harassment. this isn't insane for an online platform.
So does Webster's and Wikipedia.
if only there was a country for them.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decolonization
It may surprise you to know, there is more to the world than one particular conflict.
Edit: to be clear I take no issue with banning calls for violence and genocide, including instances where they are attempting to be obscured by careful use of language. I take issue with claiming that the word, which has been used for decades, in a wide variety of contexts, suddenly inherently means genocide.
When someone today talks about "decolonization", what are the odds that they're talking about Palestine? What are the odds that they're talking about the Belgian Congo? This is especially true if it shows up on Twitter rather than in an obscure journal about the 20th century history of Africa.
So (many) people are using "decolonization" to mean the destruction of Israel. And then (some, and maybe not the same) people are saying "you can't say decolonization means genocide, because there's all this history of Africa and India and the Caribbean and so on - it doesn't necessarily mean that." OK, fine, but these days, on Twitter, what percentage of it does mean wiping out Israel? 95%? 99%?
So, yes, as a matter of definition, you have a point. In practice, Twitter has a point.
In my particular bubble? Essentially zero. It's pretty much always going to be in the context of a past or present British colony, or a person's mental state aka "decolonize the mind". I readily admit my personal experience may not line up with whatever is trending on Twitter/X. And now we can't discuss those things on Twitter/X apparently. Is Twitter/X such a mess that this kind of limit is for the best? Maybe, I haven't been around in a long time, but it seems pretty damn toxic from the outside, but "freedom of speech" it ain't.
As a result: outrage, controversy, demagoguery and subsequent deleting of such impulsive and unfiltered crap is very common. A lot of it is also unintelligible drivel that is presented with no context. And common opinion is that this is basically the best planet earth has to offer. In a way this is embarrassing and that mayor would have my permanent vote had I lived in France.
100% depends on who you follow. It says more about the follower than the platform to be honest.
Laughing out loud.
This is only true if one defines freedom of speech extremely narrowly; specifically if you want to use racial slurs, or if you want to attack lgbtq folks.
Material criticism of Elon or his endeavors routinely results in bans. This has resulted in him banning numerous high profile journalists.
Elon banned individuals who posted Elon's locations, after Grimes used that info to serve him a custody lawsuit that he'd been dodging. He even banned journalists who talked about the bans, or who asked about ban policy.
He bans with abandon. Joke accounts? banned. promoting other social networks? banned. Advocating for lgbt gun ownership? banned. Paul Graham (the co-founder of YC)? banned.
And when he isn't busy banning, he is using the courts to suppress speech he doesn't like, and creating implicit threats to others who might say something even moderately critical of him or his empire of government subsidized wealth.
you know what isn't banned now? having centrist, or even right wing opinions
you can also see the violence and terrorism that the mainstream media refuses to report on
there's a lot of political voices that are being allowed to speak finally, whereas before they've been stifled due to political persecution coupled with insane deplatforming. X as a free speech platform is doing a great job at showing how widespread political gaslighting has become.
Be specific.
that covid came out of a chinese lab, or showing that the lockdowns didn't work as was shown by Jay Bhattacharya early on
accounts that were censored, shadowbanned, and massively decreased in exposure. just look up the twitter files.
since being owned by elon there's also been a rush of psychometricians into twitter, people who want to share and talk about their scientific data, which was banned before. you couldn't talk about IQ.
there were also people banned for challenging immigration narratives or gender ideology. this was prevalent and obvious. lauren southern was constantly accused of shooting a gun at an immigrant ngo ship that was actually just a flare - incapable of hitting or hurting anyone.
all of this was blatant and widespread on more than just twitter, did you not notice?
I'll agree he changed the (flawed) covid misinformation policy; though there were absolutely people discussing Chinese lab leak theories or the effectiveness of lockdown without getting banned.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding psychometrician... there were always people talking about how some races are categorically dumber than others and drawing broad conclusions; they received social judgment but not bans.
Your comment about Southern is really telling though. You're clearly upset that people are _not_ banned for stating something true. You agree she shot blazing hot fiery incendiary devices at immigrants using a flare gun, and you think people should be muzzled from saying that, simply because you (very wrongly) believe that flares can't start fires or hurt people.
This last part makes clear that you don't actually have any love of free speech; but rather you simply want speech restricted in the way you personally prefer. It's refreshing that you don't bother pretend to have principles beyond a desire for power, and a love of oppressing those you hate.
Not a flare gun, a flare. She held it in her hand, it couldn't even be fired: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=357&v=yFxAlx6hy2M&feature=yout...
Even if all she did was sing happy birthday to the immigrants and then welcome them to Greece, Stainablesteel is still advocating for speech he doesn't like to be restrained.
In hindsight, I should've realized that his post was unreliable and untrustworthy. I should not have used a proven liar as a source, and I won't do so again.
It's not hard to think of other alternatives...? KakaoTalk, LINE, WeChat / 小红书? These are all used where tons of interesting people post, and freedom of speech isn't really upheld on X (formerly Twitter) anyway.
Could you link me to 2 - 3 interesting accounts on these platforms so that I can browse their thoughts?
The trip, supposedly for inspecting Olympic facilities even though this was revealed to be impossible due to local conditions, now seems like a gross misappropriation of public funds. This does not sit well with many of us concerned about how our taxes are spent, and there's been a formal complaint by an Anticorruption NGO. [2]
When confronted about this she deflected by pointing out that every year her first trip with her whole team is at Auschwitz, and she accused her detractors of not being willing to go there with her next year. The obvious instrumentalization scandalized the opposition.
[1] https://www.bfmtv.com/paris/interpellee-sur-ses-voyages-anne...
[2] https://www.lequipe.fr/Tous-sports/Actualites/Une-associatio...
It's like if you go into a bar and there's a guy screaming a bunch of curse words and racist crap in the corner at everyone near him. Normal people are going to leave if no one kicks the guy out.
The real reason X is being attacked is because the Following tab doesn't inject propaganda like every other social media / news website does, other than ads of course.
I still use X/Twitter weekly and I don't have any problem with the posts I see. My problem is with comments, which are usually where I will see hate and spam.
There are two distinct twitter feeds: 'for you' feed and 'following' feed. The former's like a sewer, but there's no excuse for the 'following' feed being anything but pristine (since it's curated by the user).
Something Musk discussed when he bought twitter was how users didn't always know the difference between the two feeds since the labelling was not clear - there was a 'stars' (?) icon to switch between the two.
If you want to find coverage of the Palestinian position you can read it, and listen/participate in a space.
If you want to find coverage of the Israeli position you can read it, and listen/participate in a space.
To me it says that X is not practicing viewpoint discrimination for this issue which is actually heavily censored in much of legacy media.
They just benefit from the conflict between opposing, incompatible viewpoints. Musk especially seems to like it. It's primarily a for-profit enterprise fueled by hate and propaganda, just like those "legacy" things it's supposed to replace.
"Social media" was a lame attempt to centralise and commercialise forums through surveillance and "advertising services".
Bring back the minitel.
It was a sewer long before Musk took over, that's why the previous owners were so happy to dump it on him, cash out and let him polish that turd
Not sure that is the right choice of words given how many advertisers and revenue has left the company.
Even Musk himself has acknowledged that the company is now worth a fraction of what he paid for it.
This is objectively true, since every other tech company's stock prices dropped dramatically. Twitter's stock price was pinned because Musk made a commitment.
> more information came to light during the acquisition process which further changed his view of the company's value
This is objectively false, he misread Twitter's quarterly statements and didn't understand what mDAU meant, he wasted months and millions of dollars dragging Twitter through court, only to be forced to follow through on his commitment or get a worse judgment from the court.
Whether it's objectively true or false is irrelevant. What I said was it changed his view of the company's value which resulted in him acknowledging that his estimation of Twitter's worth had dropped.
And while I don't disagree that Musk had a different interpretation of mDAU than Twitter did, I don't sign onto the assertion that how 2022 Twitter's view of the world is anything like objective. These numbers have been considered controversial and suspicious long before Musk's interest in Twitter.[0] Twitter had a history of dodgy numbers.[1] And there was substantial evidence that Twitter was turning a blind eye to bot traffic in their mDAU analyses.[2]
[0] https://venturebeat.com/business/twitter-is-slowly-perfectin... (From 2019)
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/28/23046170/twitter-miscount...
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/24/23320461/twitter-mdau-mud...
He backed out because he was foolish enough to think that the legally binding offer was not in fact binding.
I suppose I need to add that I'm not talking (and don't care) about your position on Muskness, Xness, or anything else. I'm just responding to a pattern of unsubstantive/flamey/snarky comments in your account history. That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
X is what you make it to be. I spend little enough time on it that the small amount of content I do consume from it doesn't offend me.
What I have noticed is the vast amount of criticism of X during the FB Threads rollout. Unsurprisingly, it's dead. Threads has no reason to be immune to the alleged dysfunction that's seen on X. My theory is that it would be no different had it been able to attract sufficient market share.
It is a lot less true for a high-profile account, which is receiving tons of replies and other interactions, where the sewage swamps out and flows towards you.
Elon's checkmark system is the equivalent to the hot weather that caused the Great Stink [0].
Which is natural when you effectively disband the safety teams and allow all previous banned accounts back onto the platform. Also where as Twitter at least tried to comply with codes of practice, X has simply just given up.
Also a lot of it has to do with Musk being the face of the platform and endlessly trying to start culture wars.
The new mayor of Twitter/X has decided that he likes the smell of his own shit and that everyone else should be forced to experience it, so we get piles of vapid idiotic blue check marks dominating discussion rather than the comments that are considered best by the crowd.
Despite all the shit flowing in the streets, it can still be somewhat avoided, and there is valuable information on Twitter that I can not find from any other source. High quality curators of information about computational biology, energy, housing politics, etc. do not have as large a presence on any other social network yet. I just need to avoid any viral tweets or anything from the "For You" or trending topics, and I can avoid stepping in the worst of it.
It always has been for decades, long before Musk bought the company, but again hundreds of millions still use the platform after all the nonsensical predictions of complete shutdown one year ago and the continuing active campaigns to bring it down.
There are much more larger global sewers such as Instagram and TikTok that who's algorithms are much worse than Twitter / X, so let us not believe that this 'global sewage' is exclusive to Twitter / X and especially the words of someone who still needs to clean up their own city.
Of course there is a but coming! When twitter launched, I immediately felt like Twitter itself was a distillation of a fascistic impulse: the idea that a curt and pithy phrase, stripped of nuance, is not only a superior way to communicate, but the only way to communicate. (I'm using "fascistic" here not to incite, but for lack of a better term: I think everyone has an impulse towards the safety of political simplicity, and that modern democracy is founded on complexity, i.e. lots of opinions, lots of checks and balances, lots of persuasive argument required to achieve things). I feel that the very structure of throttled meaning is what made Twitter in particular such a platform for mass outrage and negativity.
Fast foward a decade, and the twitter model of simplicity is now the normal mode of discourse on social media. If something is not a few seconds long, its reach is quite limited. This means that simple things, like propaganda, are easier to articulate, and complex things that acknowledge the subtlety of actual life get buried.
Taken out of political context, a good example is videos of altercations between people (fights, arguments, etc) that become viral. As a viewer, I almost immediately feel outrage and righteous anger against the perceived victim of the altercation. But sometimes some context comes to light: the perceived victim is actually the aggressor, or the situation is much more complicated than it seemed. Putting this back in the political context, I see quick videos getting passed around that do a similar thing: take an event quite out of context in order to manufacture outrage against a particular group. Of course there is a word for this: propaganda.
I'm not a technological doomer: I'm quite intrigued as to what is happening, and my impulse is not to shackle it. But what I'm witnessing is that propaganda (or otherwise, events taken out of context) spread like lightning on social media, and I am sympathetic to attempts by platforms to somehow provide context or moderation to that spread. The mob mentality is real. I share the Mayor's concern about Twitter, because even though it was a sewer from the start, in my estimation, by its platformization of epistemological constraint, the fact that it is walking back attempts to staunch the spread of its own demons is concerning.
I do think a healthy public debate in a functioning, free speech democracy, is essential to its lifeblood. But for that debate to function, it must be done in good faith, and with some shared understanding of truth and context. While I see that happening in some places on social media, it's generally on well moderated forums in which people accept that bad faith arguers will be banned.
Like I said I don't have a clear sense of the solution to all this. State sponsored propaganda was all too effective before social media, and I can see social media undermining the monopoly of the state on the dissemination of that propaganda. But perhaps the pendulum will swing too far to the other side, where blatant bad faith, grassroots propaganda, and untruth successfully steer public opinion.
its just that the nuggets a fewer and far between now and the stream has gotten thinner and slower.
Also he made the team release community notes well ahead of schedule, and this is probably the best feature of Twitter. If that was created in 2017, I probably would still be addict.
I hate twitter , and a lot, specially before Musk, however it is insane to see some people just starting to complain.
Only when finally those who disagree politically with them have a crumb of a voice.
The place was always horrible problem is this people had an elite of horrible "journalists" being yes men and secluding them from divergent voices.
Never said that you have to choose or that twitter is nicer.
It was wild. Your below-average American went so far as rewriting their menus so they wouldn’t have to order “French fries” any longer. The pettiness was bottomless.
More recently the Paris accord has given these same below-average Americans angst because it dares offer introspection on the F150 lifestyle that will soon be coming to an end.
Paris is truly evil to dare challenge such mediocrity