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Comment by defrost | Hacker News Reader

From the article linked:

    "This confiscation of license plates constitutes a discriminatory attack without any support in law directed at Tesla," the American electric car giant wrote in documents submitted to the Norrköping district court on Monday seen by the Dagens industri newspaper.

From the European Public Service Union The right to strike in [..] Sweden:

    Blockades and boycotts are widely used by trade unions in sympathy strikes or secondary action. Pursuant to the Co-determination Act, any sympathy strike undertaken in support of lawful primary collective action is also considered lawful.

https://www.epsu.org/sites/default/files/article/files/Swede...

Dockworkers and postal workers in both Sweden and Norway are refusing service to Tesla because Tesla has refused to discuss collective bargaining for five years.

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while this comment is true, not sure what it has to do with the article.

from my understanding tesla is actually suing the state because there’s a law saying license plates can only be delivered via post. and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services).

but maybe i misunderstood something, so someone can correct me if i’m wrong.

The point is that the law explicitly permits the postal union to do this. Tesla's suit is probably going nowhere.

It's unclear though? There are also laws regarding mail services I believe.

Tesla isn't demanding the postal union to ship them the plates, they are demanding to be allowed to pick up the plates by themselves.

Pick up the plates from whom?

They don't just teleport into a stack in the parking lot of the post office on their own. A pickup would involve employees. Who are members of the union.

Whatever the equivalent of the DMV in Sweden is?

I'd presume those plates get from the license plate factory to the DMV offices somehow. I'd presume that method isn't carrier pigeon.

Tesla said they would want to pick it up at the factory. The factory is putting them in nice packages to be delivered.

The factory says they can't do this.

> According to the Transport Agency, current regulations mean it is only able to distribute number plates using Postnord.

I think the purpose of this lawsuit is to get that regulation changed.

Then the factory workers might refuse to hand out plates to Tesla as they're also part of a union.

But they aren't. Also unions can't push these sympathy strikes too far, by doing targeted denial of government services they are really making it easy for the current right wing government in Sweden to add regulations to prevent unions from denying government services via sympathy strikes in the future. There are already such laws for healthcare etc.

They aren't because the situation doesn't require it yet? If the rules/regulations regarding delivery of plates changes union action will change to address that. If the government does something to curb union power (in a non life and death situation) they'll likely lose the next election.

> If the government does something to curb union power (in a non life and death situation) they'll likely lose the next election.

No they wont, if they do something like: "Sympathy strikes is not a valid reason to refuse to deliver mail" nobody who currently votes right will think that is bad. Post workers can then still strike for better conditions for themselves, but they can't shut down the postal system for companies they don't like.

Mail is necessary for many government functions, it isn't some optional thing that you can work around.

Edit: Seems like the courts agrees that this is a necessary function so they have to give them to Tesla via alternate means:

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/domstol-teslas-registreri...

If they do something they would have to change the law as the Swedish system does not use Ministerial governance for individual cases like this.

So far only Tesla has been heard in court, Judge ordered temporary relief as Tesla argued that their business would be hurt short term, it's not a final decision. Workers at the factory are also part of a union, so they may refuse to hand any plates out.

The district court just ordered the Transport Agency to hand over the plates to Tesla within a week, Postnord be damned.

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/domstol-teslas-registreri...

As a temporary injunction, yes.

Judges don't give out injunctions forcing the govt to do something outside the status quo easily unless there's a strong case.

"Deliver the mail" is hardly that far "outside the status quo".

The department is still making the plates, it is only the postal employees that are refusing to deliver them.

The manufacturer. Scandinavian Motor Center.

If that is allowed under the law now, why don't they? If is not permitted under current law, not sure how easy it is to change law with a suit.

As I understand it: The law is that the government agency must make new license plates “available” to Tesla. They tried to argue in court that it was sufficient for them to put license plates in the mail. But the court sided with Tesla, at least in the interim. So it’s definitely not open-and-shut case for the unions.

https://techcrunch.com/2023/11/27/sweden-sides-with-tesla-sa...

"Norrköping district court said the agency must find a way to get the plates to Tesla within seven days or pay a fine of 1 million Swedish crowns (~$96,000)."

That's a temporary injunction while things are litigated.

But there are obviously also other laws in Sweden. For (an obvious) example, the police union can’t decline to investigate crimes against Tesla owners.

Are you sure?

Can you point to a concrete law stating this?

The Scandinavian countries are generally quite similar in these matters. In Denmark, uniformed police can't strike. It's part of the way they're employed, in return, they're almost impossible to fire except for cases of gross violation of their duty. I'm almost certain Sweden is the same, but I'd love for a Swede to chime in. It's called Tjenestemænd in Danish.

> and the postal workers refuse to deliver anything to tesla (which seems a bit crazy considering there are laws about using the postal services).

It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model: labour laws are minimal, setting just a very basic framework which is then taken to employers + employees negotiations to set the other terms of employment for an industry, in that it's a pretty free labour market. The counterpoint is that it's required that employers and employees collaborate to set the minimum arrangements for employment.

Tesla is refusing to abide by this model, in the Swedish model sympathy strikes are legal since that's one way that employees from other industries can support other workers in their struggles, the employees of PostNord decided to take sympathy action against Tesla for what they consider an attack to the whole model of employment and labour in the nation.

What is crazy is a company trying to subjugate a whole nation's system of employment for their own benefit, for that Tesla is being collectively punished by workers in other industries for trying to undermine the labour market as a whole.

Lots of companies work without collective agreements in Sweden though. Under law it's completely free if you want to do so or not. You could as well say that the unions are threatening the Swedish model due to taking this to such extreme levels. Especially as it doesn't seem most employees at Tesla want the unions involved.

They do while conditions are ok, it seems like conditions are not ok for these workers hence they pushing for a CBA.

And while lots of companies work without a CBA here in Sweden, 90% of employees are covered by CBAs, so the vast majority are covered by one and Tesla fighting this by bringing scabs (a huge, huge no-no in here) is quite stupid. If they thought a CBA would be bad for business then strikes are even worse, it's their choice now to sign one or not with all the costs associated on not having one.

Most employees don't seem to be in support of the unions at this point though? It's a bit hard to tell as there are no official numbers, but from what I've seen it seems like ~90% or so of employees at Tesla remain at work. And there is a high demand for their services, so they could easily go to other companies for work if conditions are bad.

Not all workers have joined the union and wouldn't get paid by the union to strike. But unions use sympathy strikes against companies that might retaliate against their workers if they strike, Tesla has already made threats. So going by how many of the workers at Tesla are striking or not is not a good measurement.

The union is offering free memberships and 130% of normal pay. Tesla employees still don’t want to strike [1]. This is why the unions are using these extreme tactics.

1. https://teknikensvarld.expressen.se/nyheter/bilbranschen/tes...

Tesla threatened to remove their stocks if they strikes so not surprised as it's supposedly a large part of their compensation.

The way unions work in scandinavia is that they are decentralized but supportive of each other.

IE as long as the workers don't form an local chapter everything is fine the problem if that when such a chapter forms and the company ignores it every other union chapter is allowed to refuse to deliver work in support of an company that choose to refuse/fight unionization.

So for there to be an conflict there have to be an meaningful chapter formed within tesla's employee base that tesla refuses to acknowledge.

Now again remember that this system is core to the "flexsecurity" systems employed by all of the nordic countries which is generally based on fair negotiations between equal parties(union and company) if Tesla manage to break that model they force the bureaucracy and state to take over and set highly rules without any concerns for local details they way it typically happens in France which is going to hit their profitability far harder then allowing unionization.

I work for a US company and I can tell that US management doesn't give a rat's ass on local customs until it bites them. You can raise and escalate and whatnot, they will still push the locals to implement the illegal/unacceptable stuff if not immediately then boiling the frog - anything goes until some agency or legal suit says whoa stop.

They are engaging lawyers and engaging with some of Sweden's most popular and powerful NGO's that's not doing nothing that's actively throwing money into a fight that's both hard to win and where the worst outcome might actually be for Tesla to "win".

Again the "laizes faire" no labor protections of America just don't exist in Europe the question is weather you negotiate with an equal partner made up from your own employee's or have the state bureaucracy micromanage local details.

What I don't get is: a strike is a protest in which workers refuse to work but also pay by renouncing their salary for the days they didn't work. If post employees selectively decide to not deliver to a specific client or address, what cost are they sustaining? Is their salary impacted?

Nordic unions underwrite the cost of strike action and pay workers any lost wages that result.

There's a statement by IF Metals (the central metalworking union whose ~130 odd members are being refused a collective agreement by Tesla) that they'll support their workers through this. I would image that postal and dockworkers see similar support from their unions (although they are working on every item save those that go to/fro Tesla and are not affected to the same degree).

> It's not crazy when you understand the Swedish model

the only thing i’m questioning is the idea that the postal company is allowed to not deliver mail. it just looks very wrong to me.

Yet you think tying people's hands and forcing them into furthering the interests of a foreign business venture's goals at the expense of the locality is okay?

Ask yourself, why is that okay? Why is it more wrong for a locality to refuse to cooperate with an uncooperative outsider than for an uncooperative outsider to act in a highly disruptive manner to the sensibilities of a foreign locale in the first place?

What would you do if it was you in their position?

> Yet you think tying people's hands and forcing them into furthering the interests of a foreign business venture's goals at the expense of the locality is okay?

i did not write that.

my point was that as long as there are laws enacted by the state that mandate using a specific intermediary and then that intermediary refuses service to a 3rd party, that means that the law needs changing as that intermediary now has unintended power over both the 3rd party and the state. double so when it comes to something as mundane as postal services.

Think of it this way instead, the people working there have their own rights to refuse to do so. They the people aren't "Postnord" the company, they are individuals who are free to act on their own, they aren't slaves to their company.

valid point, but at the same time people should be free to resign and employers should be free to fire their employees.

Striking is one thing, but targeting an individual company is another. They are not striking, they are selectively denying a critical service to force submission.

It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes.

"It is not hard to imagine scenarios where this is weaponized with horrifying outcomes."

Well, it is for me to imagine - could you expand on "horrifying"? The Mirriam W definitions don't seem to make sense when used in your particular context.

“I’m a fireman. I don’t like you, so I’ll stand here while the fire burns you and your house.”

WE are firemen. Plural. It's not the decision of a single employee.

Anything can be weaponised with horrifying outcomes. (Your kitchen knife, radio, rats, automatic rifles, democracy)

The thing to look at: actual track record (positives vs negatives).

How many tragic events happened due to Swedish sympathy strikes targeting a company?

Interesting to compare the Swedish model to the UK's. Here, employers can do whatever they like, unions need a full postal ballot to fart.

No, you got it quite right I think. The government agency in question has a deal with Postnord (owned mainly by the Swedish state) to utilise them for all mail services. License plates has to be sent by mail. Postnord employees refuses to do so to Tesla. I believe they've also said they'd refuse to hand them out to Tesla should they come asking for them. In effect, not legal way for Tesla to sell cars in Sweden at this point.

At least not directly, if they sell via a dealership/importer who employs unionized labor they have no problem it's only direct from Tesla sales that's impacted but then again a big part of Tesla's model is of cause that they don't use franchised dealerships as middlemen.

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