Artificial glacier growing in the desert (2017) | Hacker News Reader

Artificial glacier growing in the desert (2017)

cnn.com

144 pointswjb339 comments

This article is from 2017.

Here is a short 2019 update: https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/j-k/villages-in-la...

2023:

"Kulum village, a remote high-altitude #mountain community facing the effects of climate change, was #abandoned by its residents in 2010 due to water scarcity. In #collaboration with the Ministry of Tribal Affairs (MOTA), the Ice Stupa team of the Himalayan Institute of Alternatives, Ladakh, began the process of #rehabilitation in 2019.

"On 27/02/2023, teams from HIAL & SECMOL along with volunteers trekked to Kulum’s Ice-Stupa site to set up the Automated system – a new and efficient Ice-Stupa-making system that requires very little maintenance. It helps reduce the blockage of pipes, which is a major concern in Ladakh due to the harsh winters. However, the best solution is to drain the pipe before it freezes. Various attributes of the process like the structure’s shape, size, density and weather conditions were tried and tested in Kulum village.

"This project is planned to be scaled up in various high-altitude geographic locations to combat the effects of climate change and global warming."

https://hial.edu.in/hial-secmol-team-trekked-to-kulums-ice-s...

"desert" comes in all shapes and sizes. The Tibetan plateau is huge, a high altitude arid zone. it encompasses deserts, steppes, it's distinct from the Gobi and it's not death valley, or the sahara. I had to rid myself of barchan dunes marching into the distance and the camels are two humped, and shaggy like ponies.

Indeed. I think the dry valleys in Antarctica are one of the driest deserts on earth - not necessarily where you'd expect to find a desert at all, but an absolutely fascinating place with all those dessicated/mummified seals.

Isn't the whole of Antarctica categorised as a polar desert?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_desert

West Antarctica has some big higher-precip areas, but East Antarctica is extremely dry for the most part.

Fun connection—"3 Idiots" is a Bollywood film about the journey of three engineering students at an Indian college, inspired by Wangchuk's (the engineer's) life!

I have this one on my list but haven't gotten around to watching it yet. Would you recommend?

Yes! It's a great film!

oh i was under the (probably mistaken) assumption that it is based off of 'five point someone' novel by mr. chetan-bhagat ?

IIRC "3 Idiots" was indeed based on "Five point someone", but the plot substantially changed. There was a court case filed by the author, etc.

It's been 6 years. How many of these are in the world now?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38427231

In 2019 at least 12, and earlier this year at least one updated design requiring minimal pipe maintenance.

25 as of a report from 3 years ago.

My mental connection is the dense snow piled by Zambonis outside ice skating arenas that lasts into the summer.

Discussed at the time (of the article):

An artificial glacier growing in the desert (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21721208 - Dec 2019 (9 comments)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l

I'll leave this here...

That's cool & somewhat similar. But used for keeping cool & not providing irrigation.

How does this compare to damning water, in terms of evaporation?

In terms of cost it seems way way cheaper. The water is stored near where it is needed (so no canals to dig), and you can throw up another one for $125K vs the millions of $ to build a dam.

So I'm guessing the evaporation challenge isn't a deciding factor here.

That said, I wonder how much longer you could keep the ice if you had reflective blankets to cover them once you've "grown" them as much as you can (enter the dry season).

Long if you have high-tech blankets https://www.snow-forecast.com/whiteroom/finnish-resort-to-cr... but you can also low a tech version with saw dust https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sawdust-slows-rate-of-melting-s... which is also good.

Since white is reflective, why do you need blankets ?

Color only hints to heat reflective properties. Most of the heat of the sun is not carried in by the visible spectrum. And concerning snow, it is not particularly good at reflecting IR (1).

More a conceptual objection to using blankets. Feels like overengineering. The Ice Stupa idea of Sonam Wangchuk is brilliant IMO and if this minimalist approach would work would be fantastic.

(1) https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADP000147.pdf

Dirt and dust settle on top, those particles trap heat and facilitate melting

I'm having trouble remembering the name (it's obtuse and my searching is bringing up different, similar phenomena - cryo-something iirc), but once the warm dust starts to dig a little hole with some fresh water in it, biofilms of algae and fungi begin to form at the bottom. They're dark colored and accelerate the process further (increasing the size of their habitat).

At least, that happens with real glaciers. It may take a while for a similar phenomenon to arise on artificial glaciers. But sure as sunshine, if there's sunlight and fresh water, the algae will figure out a way to exploit it.

Those are called "cryoconites." If the debris over a glacier exceeds a millimeter or two, it will actually reduce melt instead.

Thank you! That's so interesting that it can actually slow the melting.

I always wonder that about seemingly-spontaneaous fungus and algea appearance: where do these organisms come from? Are they somehow airborn, or rainborn?

Yes to both. There are plenty of organisms on any drop of water you can find on nature, and plenty of spores on the air.

Is the term you're looking for "cupping", ie the formation of "sun cups"?

Interesting, I hadn't heard that before, but it's certainly related. The word I was searching for was the term for this particular biofilm/community, so it's some long technical term.

Doesn’t it settle on the tarps / covering too?

It's a lot easier to remove dust from a dry surface (the wind may do it for you - I recently listened to an interview about Mars rovers[1], and they mentioned most of the dust that gets on their cameras gradually blows away).

[1] https://embedded.fm/episodes/371

I imagine a shiny reflective blanket will reflect more infrared than just snow, and also trap coldness in the air between it and the snow, acting as insulation.

sorry, dumb question: As cool as this is, what's the advantage over keeping the water in cisterns? Just cheaper to build?

For one, frozen water won't grow microorganisms as quickly as liquid water would — makes purification easier.

You can't beat the initial or operation costs of just piling up the water you need, above ground, uphill from the place you'll need it.

It's cheaper and easier for everything. Not just to build.

One of the first impressive creator blogs on the internet, I guess ~2001, was someone, somewhere (Canada or Alaska?) making one of these. It was massive, bigger than these from memory.

I don't think the blog was archived.

I assume this is a 'thing' in colder rural communities in North America. Their version of pallet stacking.

I remember those but can’t find them.

They added different food colors to theirs, making them look like giant frozen rainbows.

Does anyone remember the name or URL?

Now make it pillar shaped, on an onion pressure seal pressing down on a reservoir of its own making. Water, a little energy and coolant store all ar once.

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