60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, Report says
blobstreaming.org
blobstreaming.org
Our daycare for one kid is $1600. Same as mortgage, luckily we put down a large down payment and bought at low rates.
Also, if you have health issue, that also makes things pretty extreme. Healthcare is just brutal in US for low income people. Insurance can cost anywhere from $0 to $3000+. Depending on employment and family situation.
Personal finance education is also pretty bad. I know many people who are absolutely awful with finances and don’t do basic math. They don’t think how money can generate more money but what they can buy. 20% of luxury goods buyers are making under $50k. This isn’t always the case though.
If you make little money and don’t have connections it is really hard to get ahead. Once you start using credit cards and loans to eat and pay for housing the finance charges eat you alive.
I was pretty poor and even used food stamps when I went back to school in my 20s. It wasn’t until I made connections with people in high places when getting jobs and opportunities became easy. I’m lazier than I was before, I work less than I worked before, yet make much more money.
source?
Part of it is that luxury goods have a wide variety of prices. A $100 watch might be classified as a "luxury good" or a $200 pair of earrings. Part of it is it was about buyers, not total purchases or dollar value.
The people who stretch to buy a pair of $300 jeans as a Christmas present are on equal footing in that statistic to the people who dress head to toe in Gucci and never wear the same thing twice.
So, yeah, 1/5 people buying a luxury good making it the item they splurge on while making under $50,000 is reasonable.
I had a poor background but I had grants so I did have access to education but I was bad at it eg. failed. I was lucky to pick up web development to try and get rich from high traffic ads. That did not happen. I worked in factories/restaurants and did some freelancing. I landed my first W2 agency job at $40K/yr then $50K/yr. I climbed the ladder, SWE contractor job $84K/yr then a failed startup thing, $110K after that. I then quit my job since I didn't want to learn C#/.NET (dumb). Was hard to get a job for a couple months, about to go work in Amazon Warehouse till another local agency picked me up for $75K/yr where I'm at now.
All the while I've been either burning money (eg. POS car repair, or expensive toys) or helping my families (last 3 years) I think I gave them $60K+ in total. Current net worth is -$80K.
Anyway I have been very fortunate/lucky I'm just dumb.
I hate my job at the moment so I'm either going to get another job or get fired... repeat the debt implode cycle again.
Unfortunately it's often seen as easier to change the former than the latter (which seems to perhaps be developed throughout childhood and one's upbringing and former experiences), but I would perhaps try to brainstorm if you can ways to improve your own subjective perspective/lens itself. If you quit your prior job, and with your new one hate and want to quit it/think your discomfort for it'll get you fired, maybe you could try to reach out to those around you in your peer network (maybe a former dev coworker or boss or a current coworker and try to get their perspective on things). Maybe there's something with your own ability to tolerate discomfort or find solace in good aspects of your jobs that you could find.
My ideal job I'm not qualified for unless I do it as a hobby eg. robotics. So I will free myself financially eventually and then do that for fun.
And I will continue to help my families since they're in a worse situation than me. Hopefully I remember being poor. I used to dream of having a Lamborghini Aventador but now I realize that money could buy me a house with land somewhere.
I just got myself fired from my job lol. I guess my opinion on bad company practice went too far.
Well I will see how I adapt to this situation. I could have quit but idk... I wanted that layoff effect where "it wasn't my choice" but I'm just a coward I guess.
its amazing how some people will just ship "expensive hobbies" in the list of "why do I have no money" explanations.
I completely changed my understanding of how to handle money after reading the book “Rich dad, Poor dad”. I highly recommend it. The only thing I regrets is not reading it much earlier. It would have made an even bigger difference to my financial situation.
https://www.pymnts.com/study/reality-check-paycheck-to-paych...
I don’t think about how people on average salaries live. Or people with kids, or both. It is too depressing of a thought. One third of kids now live in poverty, more than one in five adults — a better stat thanks in part to professional DINK couples threading water. Poverty is below paycheck-to-paycheck.
There are no clear prospects for things improving. No meaningful political action. See BBC, Guardian, etc for what the government is concerned about instead. There’s no point turning this into a political discussion and beating the proverbial dead horse.
Upskilling and migrating into more well paid jobs is hard. If you didn’t have enough time to study outside of work before, now with the CPI rising and your real wage dropping, you have even less time.
Even if it sounds grim, people are finding individual solutions, like leaving.
The last two years in the games industry has seen a lot of attrition just from people becoming unable to sustain their lifestyles in the UK. And a lot of these people are exceptionally skilled 10+ years of exp professionals, and very driven, so they deserve at least an average lifestyle.
What is going on thanks to Brexit and all that is an injustice to them. And good on them for looking out for themselves first. Whenever a colleague leaves for a better life elsewhere, I am happy.
On your final paragraph, I can confirm that pay in east europe, and the standard of living, are higher. I am in the uk but have links there and people just dont understand how someone can work in the uk in tech an not afford a property or a family, whereas in east european countries that’s the norm. While it is not my case, I can absolutely tell that my peers in that region of the world are better off than i am, and by british standards i am pretty good.
The irony of brexit is that somehow karma is turning the uk in that which it despised.
The potholes in roads, failing health care, rising poverty, increasing government corruption and an ever increasing mass of people demanding dubious political action, makes me think the culture of the uk has seriously regressed in that it can’t sustain itself.
There is almost no company that has provided a service without more than minor issues in the past couple of years and thats alarming.
I frequently read stats about various uk institutions, such as hospitals or schools and they all have official good and outstanding reviews while google and other review sites show a very grim reality. This means the uk is faking statistics to appear better than it is.
I am extremely worried about the country. I dont think it will exist for long and it will split into its historical regions.
What I am worried instead about is increasing authoritariasm on both sides of the political spectrum taking places in all western and western alined countries, which may lead to further fragmentation and further encouragement of our foes.
The only debt I ever had is my mortgage and I have savings to cover for at least 3 years without working. Without counting that I would get unemployment plus some other investments that would protect me more.
All this lifestyle didn’t stop me from traveling a lot (sometimes for months) and having nice things. But except for the home down payment, I never spent more in a year than I earned.
But I also admit that I missed a lot of good investment opportunities due to my risk aversion
A large group of these people are having a revenue problem, not a spending problem
I walked out of college in the Great Recession with a 900/month student loan debt and paying 500/month for rent in the shittiest apartment in the area with two roommates. I could only get minimum wage jobs that would send you home if you ever got close to full time so you didn’t get benefits. Working 50-60 hours a week got me about 1400-1700 a month before tax. I frequently had to steal food if I wanted to eat even every other day and healthcare was completely out the window. There was no improving that situation by being more careful about spending because there was nothing to cut. That was paycheck to paycheck with zero luxuries and not even all the necessities
I walked out of college in the Great Recession with a 900/month student loan debt <<<
You didn't make it one sentence before you undermined your premise. Explain how a 900/month student loan payment isn't a result of a spending problem.
By the time I was equipped enough mentally to make good decisions it was too late because why not also make student loans the only ones not dischargeable in bankruptcy. If you want to argue that the OP was talking about that kind of spending, especially in light of them discussing their own college degree, well that’s an argument I guess you could try and make.
Anybody who has the opportunity to build wealth (as I have) has to recognize that at least part of that is luck.
I haven't kept up with what it all is today. I imagine it's even worse due to the runaway housing inflation.
I also think we could turn the numbers optimistic and say that 40% of Americans not living paycheck-to-paycheck is pretty impressive.
Finally, I think if you ask the question "are you worried about finances?" of course most people are going to say "yes."
I don't think we could say that at all. Only 40% isn't only unimpressive, it's depressing. The ideal would be 100%.
> I think if you ask the question "are you worried about finances?" of course most people are going to say "yes."
I think that's a safe bet at the moment, considering most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck at the moment.
More to the point, bad doesn't become good even if you can't do better. 40% is bad. If 40% was the best we can do, it would still be bad.
... which doesn't really say that much; I'll leave it to someone on your side of the Atlantic to find historical census data (eg https://www.census.gov/topics/income-poverty/wealth.html ) and cross index it against historical income data (eg https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2023/demo/p60-27... ) to determine if —with a presumably consistent methodology— there have been any significant developments in who is living on what they have and who on what they have coming.
From the linked report:
>The share of consumers living paycheck to paycheck currently sits at
>60%, unchanged compared to October 2022 At 19% in October 2023,
>the share of consumers living paycheck to paycheck and struggling
>to pay bills has also remained stable relative to last year Among
>income brackets, 76% of consumers earning less than $50,000 annu-
>ally lived paycheck to paycheck as of October 2023, as did 65% of
>those earning between $50,000 and $100,000 and 42% of consum-
>ers earning more than $100,000 These are also similar to the shares
>seen in October 2022, indicating that U S consumers have adjusted
>to inflationary pressures, managing their spending where they can
Yeah, don't do that. There's nothing remotely optimistic about that.
rather than talking about a scary number increasing, e.g. the amount of people living paycheck to paycheck went up, say, 3% next year, instead we can talk about how that 40% only went down a couple points but mostly stayed the same!
two years from now, though… that’s probably free ice cream time.
I have seen people pay a hefty price for all these things.
For all the complaints americans have, especially to our EU friends certain things should be clarified: if you get sick you can get treated for free in a timely manner and get worldclass care, if you can't afford the bill (which is assuming the insurance company will pay, so the amount is always insane) you can ignore the bill and you will be fine, I have seen people do this without a problem, you don't even have to give your real name unless you have a gunshot wound or a stabbing. You have to try hard to lack so much food that you become malnourished in the US, even if you have no job and you are living on the streets. Even in expensive places you can have three meals a day with less than $10 (povery line is like $20k/yr, $10/day is $3600/yr). Shelter is what is usually hard, especially if you're picky (reasonable) but the US is so big there are many choices but even as a homeless most go to california for the year round nice weather so they can camp there.
I only stated this because it might sound like people are living this way to meet basic needs and in some cases like when they have children but not enough income or fall for the scam that is credit cards and pay day loans they fall into a trap. Cars have a crippling effect economically but smart people get used/cheap toyota/honda and never drive them outside of commute and grocery shopping, but still just your car parked costs insurance, maintenance, parking fees,etc...
A nationwide problem I have seen is how easy it is for americans to get complacent because all their needs are met. Especially if you have a drug problem (including nicotine and alcohol). It's only a problem if you have a solution I guess, and obligatory: it's expensive being poor. How can I put it? You know how in the military they say "if you get shot, don't die", it's sort of like that, "if you're poor living pay check to paycheck, don't get broke" (liquidity trumps all!).
I literally get thousands of dollars in cash back on my normal spending every year, not even counting things like discounted flights and hotels that don't directly show up on my year end report.
And that is only discussing one single benefit. Things like charge backs and flagging fraud operate much more smoothly when using a credit card instead of a debit card.
Problems arise when you spend money you don't have, or even worse spend money you will never have. The savings completely disappear once you start carrying a balance and start getting interest fees. Just treat your credit card like a debit card and have a budget. Paying with cash and especially your debit card is just a poor move.
Also, given that you make thousands in cash back per year, this must equate to $100k/year in card spending or close. Not sure if you were posting to brag about your high income, but this article is not about people in the top 10% of income earners.
Not everyone has that much discipline. Do you think credit card companies give free cash for no reason?
It's like when every smokers tells themselves: "the problem is when you smoke regularly, I only smoke when drinking" or something like that. It's addictive! Can you be disciplined if there is an emergency of some sort? Most can't. Let me avoid being dramatic: let's say you get a flat tire and have to be at work the in a few hours, will you stop by a name brand place and put new tires on the credir cars or find a low end no name hole in a wall that charges $30 for used tire because you only have $50? Most will keep their $50 and put it on the card. One becomes two becomes a thousand.
> Just treat your credit card like a debit card and have a budget. Paying with cash and especially your debit card is just a poor move.
There are doctors and lawyers living paycheck to paycheck but not because they don't know how to budget. I know in the short term debit cards are worse bur my allergy to paying interest of any kind has protected me too much! And the millions that ruin their lives because of credit card also knew budgeting exists.
Don't play with fire, run with scissors or pay with credit cards!
The environment I grew up wasn't conducive to anything beyond trying to attain the lowest levels of maslow's hierarchy of needs. Around age 28 I was finally able to think beyond those levels.
I wouldn't be surprised at the number of folks in a similar situation.
Anyways, my point is these aren't really useful bits of advice. I am in shock you're claiming no one needs a car, and simultaneously asking them to not live somewhere expensive (which is usually where one doesn't need a car). I guess if they have a good home environment they can live with their parents, but a lot don't unfortunately, myself included.
And the medical stuff. I'm well established at the moment, but know I'm about one medical emergency (cancer, getting shot in a mass shooting, who knows) from losing my wealth.
Then there's the folks clawing their way out of poverty. They'll be from poverty and any gains they make are going to be expected to be shared with their family (father, mother, grandmother, etc.). It's extremely tough. Especially as those aging folks need medical care (both in terms of money and attention).
At this point I'm definitely planning to try and head to a country with a better social system in place, despite "making it".
If you decide to pay. If you don't use credit you will be ok. I have used credit maybe a handful of times and regreted it. I have gotten loans, car rentals, apartments,etc... without credit (how do you think illegal immigrants survive?)
> I didn't even realize a life without cars was possible (and still doubt it outside of some very specific metro areas in the USA) until I was well into my late 20s
Not everyone can do it. Uber, buses and bikes have allowed me to be car free in probably the most car dependent and unwalkable city in the world. I am saving thousands a year and honestly for me it isn't even about the money, I love cars but the hassle of dealing with mechanics, insurance, cops,etc... got too tiresome, it's truly liberating but the important bit for me is I get to WFH 2-3 days, not everyone can. I would have to move next to my office, switch jobs and/or move if that changes!
> Then there's the folks clawing their way out of poverty
Yes, my family lived in such a way when I was living at home before i started working.
> They'll be from poverty and any gains they make are going to be expected to be shared with their family (father, mother, grandmother, etc.). It's extremely tough. Especially as those aging folks need medical care (both in terms of money and attention).
Yes, and even the most unfortunate get to join the army, get free college and start helping out that way. My advice which you think is bad is stop playing by the rules of a system designed to keep you down. Don't get credit cards or credit, max out medicare/medicaid/stamps. Let me add one more: don't liver in a mortgaged house, rent unless you have good liquidity and a growing savings account that can handle a mortgage!
The free hospital in my city, when I took one of my parents for treatment, the guy who checked us out literally told us if we get a bill we should throw it in the trash. And i know people who don't even give their names when being treated!
> At this point I'm definitely planning to try and head to a country with a better social system in place, despite "making it".
That's another thing that drives me nuts! America is better than any country in europe by far! You people (and by that I mean HN and redditors) just don't know how to give the system a middle finger in my opinion. Have you looked for a tech job there!? It pays total crap by compaison. Many jobs are like that. You need a degree for everything (i ditched college - another middle finger to the system!) and everyone has one so it comes down to wealtn and connections. They have a lot of problems there and it's a nightmare if you even remotely look like an immigrant or a gypsy lol. America had a ton of problems and I have faced many of them but i have also see how other countries are and see how I am living now. There is no country better than america, the grass in fact not greener on the other side.
I distinctly remember being in my early 20s, making $9/hr and thinking how I have the exact apartment i want (bad neighborhood but never had issues), eating the food i like as much as I like, consuming any movie and music i want (piracy), learning whatever I want (turns out to be tech/security stuff) and driving a crappy car (didn't care, got me to work) and thinking how good I had it. Now I am so grateful, I order stuff from amazon, just about anything and get in a day or two, any food, grocery, enetertainment, vacation almost anywhere and I am so grateful. I am not self made, many people helped me but my point is that the system was rigged, the house always wins if you play by the rules. You have to hack the system. Say no to debt as much as possible even if that is what everyone recommends (see: mortgage and building equity or credit cards and building credit). Sorry, my quality of life has been great because I said no to many of these things. I might get a credit,mortgage, pay hospital bills, finish college,etc... when the money makes sense! Not while i am struggling for money or have responsibilities.
I will say it again, nothing beats liquidity! 1k cash is better than 50k credit. 1k rent is better than 2% apr mortgage.
I don't have all the answers and never made such a claim, i merely pointed out the common traps and scams people fall i to and waste lifetimes in stress and desperation.
Interested in how old you are? None of my friends even in the far suburbs get by with 1k rent, it's around 2k these days.
Anyways, my anecdote is that I've been overseas for extended periods and folks are far happier there than the USA. The food is better, the events are more plentiful, and folks are kinder.
America is really only great for the wealthy, which I'm guessing both you and I are. If you don't think you are, I'd be interested in your net worth at the moment.
It's interesting that you can see the system is rigged, but somehow also think folks can avoid it. America is setup this way, and I don't fault folks for struggling.
When the numbers look like this, you can't blame folks or offer pithy tips about avoiding healthcare traps ("remember this when daddy has a heart attack!"), you have to change the system.
Depends but it you get shot for example you don't have to use cash, you can just ignore the bill and take on bad credit (if you gave them your ssn+name). Cancer, i know people whose job was to take care of cancer patients so once you are admitted they won't kick you out until you are in remission, you may not get the best care possible but they will treat you for free (at a public hospital not private) some treatment options will cost money and there are many options for those who can't pay right away but worse case you have another debt to your name which goes away after 7 years so long as you don't pay a cent!
> Interested in how old you are? None of my friends even in the far suburbs get by with 1k rent, it's around 2k these days.
More than 27 less than 47 :). I live in a major US city, my current neighborhood is safe-ish (no issues) but my rent actually went down to less than 1k this year. I don't know if I live in the suburbs, but I am not in downtown or inner city for sure. I have paid more and less in the past.
> Anyways, my anecdote is that I've been overseas for extended periods and folks are far happier there than the USA. The food is better, the events are more plentiful, and folks are kinder.
Living and visiting are different. California is a good example in the US lol. You can be very happy in the US, the one thing no one beats the US on is opportunity. You have native born people living in tents in california and immigrants with nothing working their butt off and living like kings. Just in the US there are many cultures and subcultures everyone trying to be happy like any other country except in the US you can get food, culuture and interaction from any country in the world. You can live in any climate and you have 50+ states to pick from. And our national parks, just the sheer number and diversity of them you can never get bored with outdoor stuff. Just in the US the way people are kind and rude differs wildly, compare california and new york for example, and throw in how wildly rude and hostile texas and othee southern states are (unless they think you are one of them from there) and take your pick of who you wanna live near. And food? Are you kidding? I eat food from like 5 countries without thinking about it within a span of a week. You can get actual authentic cuisine from just about any country over 50M people in it in any major US metropolitan area!
I got news for you, everyone is kinder to foreigners that look wealthy in most countries. Look at how they treat poor immigrant africans and indians to see how genuine their kindess is.
> If you don't think you are, I'd be interested in your net worth at the moment.
I don't feel comfortable being that specific on HN but maybe I can get close: I have enough in my savings to pay rent+light+food (one meal a day <$10) for 1.52-2y and nothing more. I can decimate that and afford a downpayment on a cheap house (<250k). I have a good job in tech but I am constantly worried about being out of work for prolonged period of time due to instability in economy/tech. When I was ~19 i remember wearing cloth with holes in it to a job paying 8.50 because i couldn't afford anything. My family has gotten evicted multiple times when I was a teen and earlier than that too and seen a lot of poverty struggles (mentioning to say I don't come from any sort of wealth). I had a 2003 car that must have seen like 10 accidents i got rid of to save money/hassle a couple of years back(none now).
> It's interesting that you can see the system is rigged, but somehow also think folks can avoid it. America is setup this way, and I don't fault folks for struggling.
Every system has rules. If it is rigged, find a way to aboid the consequence of breaking the rules. Blackjack and card counting come to mind. If you so what everyone does you will lose. You seem to think that because the system is rigged, it is without fault, that's not correct. Ask yourself how illegal immigrants cross the border and end up raising several children in a decent house. Look at how much we depend on immigrants with skills in tech! Look at how many people complain about student debt when they could have bear it with the GI bill, forget that, I know many people that did community college and transfered and at most they paid like 15k for a degree all included! No debt, some even worked two jobs while getting a degree!
> you have to change the system.
Yes but everyone says that and then proceeds to play by the rules. Do you know that the US spends by a huge margin more than any country on health care per-capita? Do you know why healthcare is still crappy? Because even obama/obamacare couldn't imagine a world without insurances! (Hate them with passion! The cancer cells of america!) do you know why insulin costs $30 in canada and 700 in the US across the border? Because in the US, the patient is the middle man, the customer is the insurance company and everything costs what the customer is willing to pay for it. The dependency on insurance is so ingrained into ameicans minds that we think our employers should have something to do with it as if the unemployed don't get sick! See, that is the system and even the most liberal folks think about taking money from billionaires and giving it to the billionaires who own insurance companies, that's what I mean by playing by the rules. And do you know why americans live longer but with more chronic issues? Because they make you a repear customer one way or the other because you are not the person the doctor is being paid by, you are just a middleman getting in the way. When I say stop paying hospital bills, I mean let the insurance companies lose money, make premiums unaffordable so the government pays hospitals directly and regulates their prices because now it is the government paying and they have to answer to voters both for rising taxes and insane bills!
Complaining won't fix anything, neither will downvoting me when I suggest solutions hoping my fellow voters would engange in discourse (you excluded since you actually decided to talk to me instead of downvote and walk away). This right here is how things change!
A good chunk of the income tax system is designed to lower the cost of owning real estate. Foregoing that is no better than paying credit card interest.
> Uber, buses and bikes have allowed me to be car free in probably the most car dependent and unwalkable city in the world.
You'll need to use a credit card to use Uber. Unless you're suggesting using debit cards for that which isn't a great idea.
You typically pay 1.5x just in mortgage and interest. Most people have a maintenance emergency that costs 10k+ once every other year or so. HOA fees are no joke, neither is complying to their rules. Maybe you will get better tax returns and if you are really good at budgeting (unlike most) you can spread out your return to lessen this burden but you still will have at least 50% less regular cashflow for the duration of the mortgage (15-30 years!). That's what I mean by money making sense. If you have 50k+ in your savings and mortgage paymen+hoa will be at least less than half your monthly income you can afford it. In other words, if you can pay off the house in 5-7 years without living paycheck to paycheck and can withstand normal emergencies it is a good idea to own a house and much of it also depends on the interest. There are plenty of rent or buy calculators online that let you measure exactly this. For most people they say renting is better these days.
> You'll need to use a credit card to use Uber. Unless you're suggesting using debit cards for that which isn't a great idea.
Yeah, debit cards! check out privacy.com. Paying with the money you have, no more or less is how it is supposed to work.
A little over a 4 year window to have kids is pretty tight.