Ford is killing the Explorer hybrid because cops are buying all of them
jalopnik.com
jalopnik.com
IMHO, all gas-powered SUVs should be hybrids, especially since the EPA mandates stopping the engine while stationary. A hybrid would significantly reduce the pedal-to-wheels latency and keep the A/C running at stoplights.
The vast majority of hybrids don't have or need starters, because they can start by backfeeding power from the drive motor(s).
Honestly I think it's pretty cool, and you get a more reliable starter as a bonus.
If you're idling for more than around 7 seconds at a time, stopping the engine makes sense from a gas perspective.
We had to take it in to the dealer for servicing because the car battery died and wouldn't hold a charge.
Turns out it was a known problem covered under manufacturer warranty, that the battery was specced too small for Outbacks equipped with idle stop and couldn't handle drawing so much power so often.
Incidentally, the properly specced battery and associated parts that would need to be replaced would have cost around $400 if it wasn't covered under warranty.
I've saved considerably more time (maybe like 20-30 minutes?) in just a few months of having my new Subaru.
It was a somewhat stressful experience, but I guess I saved ~10-15 seconds of idling trying to leave work?
That's what internet searches and fuse pullers are for.
"but I guess I saved ~10-15 seconds of idling"
That's where the calculations get tricky. There's usually a time limit for which it's less efficient to stop the engine (about 4-7 seconds). So to calculate fuel savings, you actually should only count idle fuel rate times the number of seconds above that cutoff, then you also have to account for less efficient stops under that rate (maybe just subtract them from your seconds above so you get a net seconds beyond breakeven mark). I'm not sure any the systems track it that way, it's just how much overall time the car spent in the stopped mode.
Stop-start just doesn't seem worth it.
Hybrids where you can travel kilometres in stop-start traffic over the course of an hour every day without using the engine at all, now that seems super worthwhile!
My commute, the stoplights alone would easily add up to that every day.
City cops are the big reason we need PHEVs with 50 mile all-electric ranges. They would probably do 90% of their shift on all-electric, and the gas motor will recharge what they don't need.
In a parallel universe, Gore won the 2000 election, and got legislation through that forced PHEV technology to virtually all consumer segments within a decade. By now we would have electrified 70-80% of daily driving miles, cut emissions, and probably had cheaper cars in the process, and bankrupted the Saudis and Russians.
There also were various patents around inside-out rotaries and other compact higher-output engines about 10 years ago that would have made perfect recharger/range extenders for a PHEV.
How could they use AC and heating with traditional cars, when they had to stay stationary for a long time in summer or winter?
Edit: It's not strictly mandatory. See page 3 of https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2014-title40-vol19/p...
My understanding is that if the automaker uses it during the EPA fuel economy test, it must be enabled every time the car starts. If not, the automaker can choose to have it remember your preferences.
Warming up the truck in the winter isn’t an issue, it starts and runs like normal.
It also strikes me as a sub-optimal greedy optimization. If every car has this feature, then overall takeoff time in a long line of cars at a light should be expected to increase, and I would imagine the accordion gets worse and congestion gets worse. I wonder if anybody has studied this tradeoff.
Edit: it may be that people who drive a car with this feature overcome the delay by taking pre-emptive action (I have only driven a car like this as a rental), but it would still be interesting to see a study.
This is completely 100% solved by modern hybrids and PHEVS where the electric motor is directly on the axle or on the transmssion - the car starts moving instantly when you press the accelerator with zero delay. I strongly encourage trying a model like that for yourself - it literally makes this entire system finally work as it should.
Calling it the "dumbest most annoying" feature when touchscreens in cars exist is just weird.
Some of those that work forces are the same that burn less fuel with hybrid technology
For another, I think the TCO benefits of EVs will be noticed first by organizations that make these kinds of purchasing decisions based on spreadsheet budgeting. Doing the math on a more expensive EV vs fuel savings over a long term purchase is a bit harder for a consumer. The more expensive vehicle might make it hard to get financing, or cost you more interest. If you don't put a ton of miles on your vehicle, the savings may not add up as quickly.
For a fleet vehicle purchaser and operator, the miles, fuel costs, and potential savings are all fairly easy to calculate. A police department can run the math on gas and oil changes and figure out pretty quickly whether a bit more spent for an EV or PHEV will pay itself back.
Most people don't do that when they chose to buy a car but they absolutely should. Because the capital cost of ownership is only something like 30% of the total cost or owning a vehicle. And the other costs vary wildly between models.
but Ford have multiple models (or variations)
the police interceptor model is the most popular, the others not so much
so they will shut down the other (civilian) models and focus on the police one alone
Losers: Ford, GM, Toyota
Winners: Tesla, Kia, Rivian. Many euro brands doing pretty well in this transition, way better than Detroit.
Near future killer car: Volvo EX30, a ~$35k smaller suv type car, also available with awd etc. This is the car that big auto should make. The Tesla Y is in this class too. [1]. I wish I was an auto analyst, it seems more fun than being a software engineer at times.
Guess when you think internal combustion (ICE) cars will reach their max annual sales? It's a trick question because it happened in 2019! Since then the growth has been in EVs. Tesla is almost at 2 million cars a year now, world wide.
That "ev sales are going down" is an amazing bit of incorrect propaganda. How about up ~60% year over year [2]
What's happening is legacy auto is doing terrible and losing market share, either not making enough vehicles (gm & ford, toyota), dealers marking them up too much over list price (gm, ford, toyota), etc. GM was moving everything to a new battery pack technology (ultium) but they have unclear problems and they can't make the battery packs at scale; gm has enormous demand for the huge hummer and they made fewer in the first half of the year than last year. Toyota can't make a decent ev (it's on purpose). Japanese brands haven't done a good job overall on making attractive EVs and they are losing major market share in China, because China loves EVs. European EV sales are also growing.
1. https://electrek.co/2023/11/05/volvo-ex30-review/
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1810g57/u....
And Geely may be a great Chinese car manufacturer for Chinese customers, but not for US customers.
In the U.S., the latest reliability survey shows that Tesla trails all the other U.S. vehicle manufacturers with over 100 customer reported flaws per 1k vehicles sold. However, in China, they have the same flaw rate, but this now puts them way ahead of any other manufacturer in China -- I think the average there is like 300 flaws per thousand.
So, Geely is not the direction I would go.
The new Polestar vehicles, maybe. Depends on who did all the design and engineering -- was it Volvo or Geely?
The article points out it's a terrible hybrid that barely gets 2mpg better mileage on the EPA cycle.
It's not cost effective for your average consumer, and there are much better hybrids available, so consumers aren't buying them.
However, police spend so much time idling and have so much electrical gear, they see a much, much bigger gas savings that aren't reflected by the EPA cycle. They also put lots of miles on the vehicles, so even if it was only 2mpg, that'd still justify the extra capex...but they also get all the benefits of powering all their gear.
Keep in mind that cop cars go through regular lead acid batteries like candy.
https://electrek.co/2023/02/06/police-chief-explains-tesla-m...
https://electrek.co/2023/05/09/tesla-model-y-police-dept-go-...
https://www.fremontpolice.gov/community/hybrid-and-electric-...
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/1490/a-close-look-at-tesla...
https://www.government-fleet.com/10182136/indiana-pd-upfits-...
Tangentially, this class of vehicle is best suited for replacement by EVs; you want to direct unit flow to the highest utilization use cases to destroy fossil fuel demand and consumption.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gasoline-superusers-only-... ("Gasoline superusers: Only 10% of US drivers burn almost a third of the gas")
For what it’s worth that will always be true and is just an observation of the Pareto principle. For example, once you get rid of that 10% you’ll still likely have roughly the same ratio remain true even though in absolute terms there’s been a reduction.
all their links are about one manufacturer
You're not wrong about EVs and hybrids being ideal for fleets like police, but acting like the market is flush with choices for police departments is absurd.
Not to mention, Teslas are an idiotic choice for a group of users who tend to need bodywork pretty often, given how a lot of minor collisions total Teslas, or the body shops are booked out months or longer.
Being able to run pumps/electronics without having the main engine running allows for a huge amount of fuel savings. In addition it drops the amount of noise and pollution generated, especially in sensitive areas.
that made my day.
I just don't understand why these vehicles aren't diesels, I get that Americans have strong aversion to diesel but modern big SUVs diesels can 50mpg all day long without even trying. Surely the fuel savings are worth it alone. Why isn't there demand from the market for it?