FTC authorizes compulsory process for AI-related products and services
ftc.gov
ftc.gov
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/08/...
> The omnibus resolution relating to car rentals will allow staff to investigate unfair and deceptive practices in that industry.
and a couple others; and:
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/ftc-authorizes-new-comp...
which lists similar measures covering:
> harmful business practices directed at service members and veterans;
> harmful business practices directed at children under the age of 18 years old;
> allegations of bias in algorithms and biometrics;
...so It doesn't seem like this is particularly unusual.
There's no secret to it.
If you're just not down with annoting vets with special treatment, that's fine and I think I'm with you, but your rehetorical question evaporates when you accept that politics is real and done in the open.
At what point in time has our economy been more regulated than it is today? I can't even think of a particular industry that has trended towards less government involvement. I suppose you could make the case that modern Republicans are relatively focused on "non-interference", but that's certainly not new (Reagan) and it's certainly not a general American political trend.
Really curious what you mean by this, because the way I'm reading this there is no basis in reality.
Non-interference in business is the prevailing current in the US, at the federal level, since its founding. Interference needs to be constitutionally justified, and (historically) needs to not be better applied by more local jurisdictions.
This is why the past shows has comparitively lax regulation for long.
You're right that this is a more pressed issue lately and that we can see a local relative current towards regulation tempers that prevailing one, but in net its actually still relatively non-interfering compared to what you see in peer nations.
Leaning on the metaphor: The prevailing Atlantic current mostly goes north up the US coast, but you can still find local currents in all directions amidst that prevailing flow.
1930-1970.
And that's all the history homework I'm going to do.
In a specific and literal 'number of regulations, period' way, you're right. But in a more general sense involving the FTC, prior to 1978 the economy was significantly more regulated.
So there may be more restrictions on the product to qualify as natural or organic, for example, but there are less restrictions on the ability of the company that makes the product to engage in non-competitive behavior. Banking is a good example - there are more restrictions and requirements for disclosure, but before the 90's, banks were not allowed to have branches in multiple states. Additionally, now you have a number of tech companies behaving like banks but acting in a significantly less regulated way that wasn't possible twenty-five years ago. From a 'whole economy' perspective, the required reserve balance reductions in the 90's resulted in less ability for the federal govt to control the economy without major shocks.
The government has less control over the economy today than it has had in decades, and since the late 70's a failure of antitrust enforcement and changes in financial rules have resulted in market concentration in every major market to a degree that they have all become oligopolies.
I read it as "we're targeting specific scams aimed at veterans and others aimed at children" and my first thought was areas of the insurance industry selling "coverage" that doesn't cover.
Those scams aren't targeting the general population to begin with.
And there’s the pragmatic way of thinking about it, which says “these concerns were raised by advocates for this group based on past experiences where this group saw abuse, and the conversation was never elevated beyond protecting this previously-victimized group from future abuse”
Thats not to defend what is probably bureaucratic myopia, just to say the reasons are more likely banal than strategic.
Granted I went to basic training over two decades ago. Maybe the Post 9/11 GI Bill is different? But I doubt it. What I've heard from fellow veterans is it's better in so many ways. Apparently I'm even eligible for a year of its use even though I depleted my original GI Bill (with kicker).
The most difficult part for most people is staying in school, which is made significantly easier by not having to pay for it.
Which part of capitalism causes the government to scam the state funded military. There doesn't appear to be any private ownership of capital involved at all.
The US made a very strong go, initially, at not doing that, with a cadre-style Army reliant on militia mobilization for significant action (and a somewhat similar situation for internal security).
The whole security forces as a separate caste with interests divorced from the population thing was something the founders were aware of and concerned about.
- Guaranteed housing—including for your spouse and kids.
- Healthcare for same.
- Free college education.
The pay sucks, but the benefits are pretty damn good. I do think universal healthcare and free public university would take a big bite out of military recruitment rates.
ADA compliance especially does not give the disabled an advantage over others. It is an attempt to level things and an acknowledgment that assistance is necessary for some people to enter the workplace as otherwise they would not physically be able to do so. Most of the other protected classes are based on the Constitution - not including pregnant women and women that may become pregnant, as a sub-class, who are classically discriminated against in the workplace and elsewhere and forced out of their jobs on a regular basis.
So when someone, you in this instance, complains about "not being worth protecting" in comparison to a group that is routinely disadvantaged or innately vulnerable, it creates the appearance in people listening or reading their words that they are extremely naive and/or a cruel, mean person. This perception is something a person who is neither of those things should consider before speaking or posting about subjects like this one.
Let's see where this country is when those like me rightfully sit and do nothing to defend it. There is a cost for acting like certain citizens matter more than others.
People who are upset that handicapped and vulnerable people get help or are protected by the government don't usually stand up and defend anything at all, in my experience. So no real change there.
People want to make a problem because I dared to suggest our country protect all of its people. There's nothing morally wrong with my stance. I'm not bitching and moaning at a parking space or a ramp. I'm bitching about the fact my country will never act to protect me, because I don't fit the intersectional chart.
Identity-based protection is discrimination. Make excuses all you want but I'll abandon any group that won't offer me equal protection.
Your point really seems to be 'why doesn't the government give me exactly the same thing they give the less fortunate.' The answer is, you don't need it to put yourself in a position to compete. They do.
slaves aren't paid
Not trying to straw-man you but it seems that your point is that because it is possible to skirt US anti-discrimination laws by importing from overseas, the US should have no anti-discrimination laws?
That is not a good point. Would you please clarify if there is something I missed?
Yes, I agree, anti-discrimination shouldn't stop at the border.
That's why back in the day sucked.
Interesting test of whether we suddenly see a decline in the number of products claiming to have or be produced using AI. Probably not until/unless the FTC actually starts using these powers in a significant way.
By the way, I don't mean cases where AI was used, lying about it, I mean cases where nothing meriting the term "artificial intelligence" was used, but they have been stretching the term so they can use the latest buzzword in advertising.
Imagine a government agency that has oversight over "products and services that use or claim to be produced using electricity..." This may become the largest power grab in US history.
I would be wary of pre-emptive regulations.
This regulation is almost certainly too far reaching and written by bureaucrats rather than experts, but the need for regulation is already there.
As for "stolen" work, i am still not convinced that ai produced works are a derivative of the training data.
And AI policing is just as bad as human policing - the regulation isn't with AI, but with policing.
Then what are they?
An LLM isn't an artist and I'm not a piece of software. But if you think the LLM output other to be copyrightable in its own right, who should hold the copyright? The person who wrote the prompt? The person who picked which entropy source the model used? The owner of the GPU that ran inference? The last person to provide input for fine-tuning the network?
Hard disagree on both counts, but for the sake of argument let's go with your assumption.
> But if you think the LLM output other to be copyrightable in its own right, who should hold the copyright?
The LLM, being a piece of software, should logically be treated like any other piece of software used to create a work by a human artist. It is a tool. Let's say there is a song composed for a synth keyboard. Should the copyright go to the person who designed the keyboard? The person who owns the equipment that made the keyboard? The people who recorded the samples that each key stroke references? The person who curated the samples for the keyboard? The person who owns the keyboard? To the person who figured out the sequence of keystrokes that produces the song? Or to the person who hits those key strokes when the song is being recorded?
Well the person who designed the keyboard gets the ip of the keyboard's design. The person who owns the production hardware does not inherently get any ip. The artists who created all the works sampled get the ip to their specific samples. The curator would not get any ip for the collection but they might if they did something transformational, like passing those samples through a filter. The keyboard owner does not inherently get any ip. The composer gets the ip to the composition in general. The artist who played the song for the recording gets the ip for that specific recording of the song. If I were having a conversation with someone, I would say that the person who figured out the sequence of keystrokes is the person who holds the copyright.
Likewise, the creators of the LLM would hold the ip related to its design, but a specific output of the LLM would belong to the person who thought of a way to make it produce that specific output - ie the prompt writer. Those who made the inputs would own the ip to the part of the inputs which remained untransformed in the final work. Curating input for the network training would be equivalent to curating numbers for a phone book - the collection itself is not copyrightable but some transformational work (like cleaning the data in a specific way) would be. Owning the hardware the LLM was trained on would not inherently grant any ip rights.
Of course there is some grey area where it might genuinely be unclear who holds the rights to what (which has always been an issue with intellectual property laws), but the idea that just because it's sometimes unclear who contributed what to a work means no work was created at all is obviously folly. Others might have a different opinion than I on how the existing framework should be tweaked to accommodate this new technology, but it's definitely not a major departure.
Please show me a few examples where a work was copied by an AI and the copy is so good it violates copyright law.
All I have seen is someone used a pirated dataset to train AIs. Suing over that is like suing Seagate because someone tested a prototype hard disk by storing pirated books on it.
By this standard, we should ban all integrated development environments because, like the AIs you mention, they allow programmers to produce hugely buggy code.
Cops hurt innocent people. That's not the fault of the Chevrolet they are driving or the AI they are using.
Criminals will seek to obfuscate blame for their crimes to avoid getting caught, so police will frequently get the wrong person. Libertarians would rather leave it to lynch mobs, while statists want to fund better tools for the police. No solution is perfect.
We need regulation that holds people accountable. I see too many 1%ers claiming they were not responsible for something their algorithm did.
In old sci-fi, a computer was the legal agent of its operator/owner and anything that computer did was 100% the fault of its owner/operator.
If we simply say "you are responsible for what your AI does," then the problem is solved.
We could solve the problem if not being able to bring corporations to justice at the same time. Forxe them to beck e proprietorships. Every owner/partner is culpable for crimes committed by that proprietorship.
Did a cop arrest an obviously innocent person? It's the cop's fault.
Did my web site plagiarize a painting? Then it's my fault.
Did a startup release venerable software? Then the crook that exploited the bug is responsible but so it the entity that released the software.
If we get back to common sense and stop blaming the Twinkie for the murder, things get a lot simpler. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense
While the dumb money flows to anything with an A and an I in the pitch deck, I expect they will continue.
Finally we have a definition for what AI is.
While reaaaaally simple it is still a form of IA, I don't see nothing wrong with that
A advanced model would maybe see industry prices and consumer trends but it's the same in my eyea
It's not saying "predictions, recommendations, and decisions". It's or.
So it just needs to recommend or decide based on any data (such as how many are left at this moment in a database) in a way that has real world outcomes (someone stocks a shelf).
A thermostat that turns on an HVAC unit after temperature drops below a reference point technically qualifies as AI based on this definition.
It's maybe a bit broad.
I've always thought the difficulty in defining what AI is stems from a need to differentiate humans from the "artificial" part of it.
The real issue with using AI (from a law enforcement perspective) is the inability to put somebody under oath and ask them why they made the decisions they did. All the FTC really needs to say is something like "If we suspect your product is discriminating against a protected class and you can't (as a company) explain what the decision making process was (that was non-discriminatory) we will assume the worst."
If you want to say "true AI" you have to say "General AI"
So is excel.
But then, that's fair. What is stupid is using this as a rule to decide how a product is regulated.
PID loop is AI by this definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional%E2%80%93integral%...
Also regression, most of what makes computers fast (LRU cache, branch prediction), optimising compilers.
>decisions
Arguably this deems any program containing a conditional branch instruction as AI.
If it can only do const, then it's not.
So I see no problem with the consequences of your observation.
No, I'm not joking.
The complaint I see here is that wording, at least in the article, does neither of these.
Law is not code. They don't work the same. The longer you confuse them, the more confused you'll be.
Law is not code, law is law, and our legal system is based on the idea that by default the government can't do things, we specifically allow things if and only if we want the government to actually be allowed to do those things, and we limit what we allow as narrowly as possible while still enabling the goal to be accomplished. There is a long history of overly broad laws being applied in obviously unintended ways, with countless examples of horrific consequences, which is why we set up our legal system this way. We know that relying on reasonable interpretation is a bad practice that should be avoided as much as possible. It is laughable to dismiss such concerns as being rooted in a lack of understanding of how the law works, indeed I would describe anyone who does not have such concerns as naïve at best.
I have some bad news for you about the last couple hundred years or so of how the US legal system works, especially in but not exclusive to the aspects of case law and judicial review.
For future reference, the convenient shorthand for your position here is: "Marbury v. Madison was wrongly decided."
(Its also important to people subject to FTC investigations to determine whether they are obligated to respond to particular things that purport to be a particular form of administrative subpoena, but, I mean, at the point that your business is subject to an FTC investigation in which they are issuing things that look like administrative subpoenas, you probably ought to be engaging counsel to guide you in that process for more reasons than just "is this something we need to obey", and the substantive law being investigated is going to be a much more complicated thing that the one page order adopting compulsory process for a particular domain of investigations.)
More clear wording would hopefully allow business to avoid getting some CIDs on this topic and/or streamlining the process after getting a CID. If you know hat you need to document to make it clear you are the right side of the law, hopefully that would make the entire process go faster.
Correctly so. What is called “AI” is effectively a mess of conditional branch instructions, except with a twist that you cannot know what they are or directly control them
A bunch of conditional statements are fine so long as they can be reasonably analyzed. It's the point where you stop being able to analyze them that you have a risk you didn't before.
This camera tracking a goldfish to pick stocks is AI by this definition:
Update: A coin toss meets this definition.
It's called government regulation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
The FTC hasn't defined AI, they've specified some properties which they believe some types of AI possess.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/11/new-g...
All LLMs are deterministic systems with a random seed. Get rid of the noise that is injected in the system and the outcomes become repetitive. That means that the output is a pattern, one that may be "detectable".
They need to know the input...
The last time we had a largely unregulated cottage medical industry, it precipitated billions of dollars in fraud [1][2][3].
Given the cost of the computing resources, we weren't going to be seeing any mom-and-pop non-GMO free-range AI shops anytime soon anyway.
[1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/03/13/chicag... [2]: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/20/doj-accuses-2-in-california-... [3]: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-fraud-increases-medic...
From whose perspective? It's beneficial for large, established businesses and detrimental for prospective businesses.
> The last time we had a largely unregulated cottage medical industry, it precipitated billions of dollars in fraud
I don't understand how attempts to defraud covid-related government programs [1,2,3] and Medicare overspending [3] are related to the argument that regulatory burden disproportionately harms small businesses. I would also note that the healthcare sector is among the most heavily regulated in our economy, and that covid-era programs rushed into existence are exceptional.
Lastly, the FTC authorized compulsory process can be applied to all "AI-related Products and Services". So these "mom-and-pop" AI startups can (and already do) exist. Even if that weren't the case, this would be a straw-man argument against the point that regulatory burden disproportionately harms smaller businesses.
> I don't understand how attempts to defraud covid-related government programs...
It's support for the notion that blowing away most barriers to entry in critical industries (like medical) would cause more harm than good. These testing sites grew on trees, and none of them provided accurate results in a reasonable amount of time. The reason COVID testing fraud was viable was because there was no oversight - force a little bureaucracy into the works, and fraudsters wouldn't see dollar signs. Not an elegant solution, but we live in an inelegant world.
> these "mom-and-pop" AI startups can (and already do) exist.
Maybe my phrasing is little too tongue-in-cheek. My goal here is to draw a line between "small businesses" amd "small tech businesses." These are wildly different things.
When non-tech people refer to "small business" they usually mean firms worth ~$1M or less. The family-owned bodega down the street, for example. I 100% agree that bureaucratic regulation hurts these small businesses much more than it helps society at large.
"Small tech business" has a totally different meaning. A Series A AI startup could easily be worth $30-50M. Regardless of regulation, it has high cost barriers arising from its compute needs, and the personel to wrangle those computers. Basic regulatory oversight constitutes a proportionally smaller cost for such a firm.
Can't say I'm shedding a tear
I wasn't able to locate the referenced document after briefly searching the FTC legal library and the regulations.gov website. Apologies if I've missed an obvious link from the press release.
See this compilation of compulsory process resolutions: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/attachments/press-releases/...
by this definition my toaster is an AI
We can't tell, because all of this is hand-waved and hypothetical.
And typically, you only have to go through the investigation if someone brings a complaint about your product. You would have to be screwing up big time to rack up complaints like that though.
It's a streamlining provision for FTC investigations in the area, so it inherently improves scalability.
https://chat.openai.com/share/635b8198-166b-4c53-abb5-7d4050...
I asked it to look into history for patterns regarding 4 different scenarios:
1. Carefully controlled technology -> Increased Risk
2. Haphazard release of technology -> Decreased Risk
3. Carefully controlled technology -> Decreased Risk
4. Haphazard release of technology -> Increased Risk
Some interesting points... but I thought it left out the careful control of literacy.
https://chat.openai.com/share/5516a6f8-c15f-449b-803b-69d68b...
Based on this definition, we’ve had AI since the 1950s. So AI is basically any device capable of computation, according to the FTC.
While I’m not sure in this case it’s really a big change in regards to how the FTC conducts investigations…(I assume they can already subpoena whomever for any reason) it is somewhat alarming in that we’re going to see more and more government mission creep based on similar tenuous definitions of “AI.”
Seems to just be inviting abuses of power in the name of “safety” over basic computer tech we’ve had for decades.
Believe it or not but a judge, prosecutor, lawyer, or clerk, even one inexperienced can be relied on to tell the difference between an "if" statement, an algorithm, and a multi billion parameter opaque model.
The law is better when it is written without exhaustive all encompassing definitions because it allows those who interpret the law to apply discretion. Discretion is important because it allows for situations that were not forseen by the original authors. It allows someone to say "I don't care what you want to call it, this very clearly is/isn't AI. "
As a lay person, I also object to unclear laws and processes because it's my repsonsibility to understand and follow them. How am I supposed to do that correctly if they're intentionally ambiguous?
As such the only way to regulate around it is on a "we'll know it when we see it" basis. I know HN doesn't generally care for regulations on technology but the undeniable reality is that the online space has a dramatic effect on the real world and that AI can have a dramatic effect on the online space.