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Comment by mkipper | Hacker News Reader

This seems like a huge stretch of "dark pattern".

Ultra low-cost airlines are pretty aggressive in upselling seat / baggage / food / fare class upgrades during the checkout process. It is annoying to have no idea what a ticket will really end up costing when it pops up in Google Flights or whatever, but I don't think that's enough to call it a dark pattern since everything is clearly disclosed before you pay for anything. Airlines are very upfront about all the things you aren't getting with your ticket.

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I haven't booked a flight in a while but any situation where I don't know the "final" cost of my ticket before I start the checkout process is a dark pattern in my book.

I don't want to see a $100 ticket before I start the checkout process but end up seeing $200 on step 6 / 8 because if I want to sit down and carry a backpack with me it's an extra $100.

That forces me to give them my data (I'm interested in a flight from X to Y, creating accounts, my address, etc.) even if I back out of the checkout process due to upsells.

Compare that to seeing the final cost ahead of time before entering in any billing details and if you don't agree with the price you can use a competitor with better rates. There's no contest in how much better of an experience and outcome that is for customers.

Not knowing if you paid to choose your seat or baggage at the time of checkout is a reading comprehension issue.

There's a valid complaint that they all game what's included/excluded at the listing price so they sort better in the fare compare websites. But once you go through the sales funnel, if you read, its very clear what you are getting.

It's not about reading comprehension or the lack of it.

It's saying the list price is $100 but then you have to invest time and provide information during the checkout process only to find out on a much later step that the list price is no longer the price you were given.

You're being lied to about the list price which makes it harder to compare prices at a glance and companies are preying on you through a form of "the sunk cost fallacy"[0] in that you're more likely to finish checking out because you've invested so much time already to get to step 6 / 8.

[0]: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy

This is not what airlines do though. The price on google flights is the exact price I pay to fly because I don't check bags or choose my seat. Just because other people do buy those things doesn't mean they have to or were tricked.

Just because the trick doesn't work on you because you don't do what most people do doesn't make it not a trick.

Right, I think airlines are a bad example of "dark pattern" and "junk fees" because ultimately the customers are the problem.

Every airline that has tried the premium model in recent decades has failed.

People have decided they've reserved the right to rock bottom fares and simultaneous complaints about quality of service. Or people have decided flying sucks no matter what airline they choose so they simply sort by price.

Either way, dollars vote and this is the outcome.

I just tried to find a roundtrip flight from SF to LA on Google Flights. Spent some time comparing prices, different airports, etc. Ended up picking one option, click, click, click - I am on the airline's website. More clicks and I am able to select the seats: went through all available seating - there is nothing available at the price that was originally surfaced to me. I can either upgrade to Delta Comfort+ for +$60 or to First Class.

Sure, I can go back to Google Flights and repeat the process. But I wasted 10 minutes already, and if I had a legitimate need to fly to LA I would have most likely just upgraded to Comfort+ to save time.

Are you going to blame me - the customer - for this?

Can you give me the exact dates and flight times so I can validate this?

Here is the specific Google Flight I selected: https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s/yYPhNC6aXX4VP5cj8

Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo

I see, thanks.

On an entirely different note, this feels like an exclusively Delta fuck up (and they know, given that they built a whole pop up for it). I fly United and American extremely frequently and never seen this. I have even booked Alaska basic economy that doesn't give you a seat and been given a free seat selection. Delta has been rapidly going downhill in recent years -- those that nerd out on air travel know exactly what I'm talking about.

I expect these patters from all low-cost airlines, so fly Alaska whenever possible.

I used to fly between Portland and SF often and Alaska was the only airline that never screwed me.

That's an issue, and going from kayak to delta for same flight leads to same issue.

I wonder if this is some bug/edge case for really close in flights? The example flight booking takes off 2 hours from now?

Last time I ever tried to book a flight so close the online sales funnel was closed due to post-9/11 security restrictions. I think 2 hours is about as close as is even legal right?

Can you replicate for a flight tomorrow / next week / next month?

Urgency is one of the key motivators for using dark patterns. Wouldn't be surprised if Delta defaults to "1 seat available at this price" for all busy flights within X take off time regardless of the availability.

In my experience this replicates routinely for Delta Main Cabin fares for non-elites on leisure/non-corporate travel once only “Preferred Seats” are left in the economy cabin.

What I think the other carriers do well is detect when there aren’t non-charged seats available for advance selection, and remind you that you can continue without paying for a specific seat and still be guaranteed a seat on day of departure.

Delta hand out “free preferred seating” as a perk to all sorts of categories of traveler though. I wonder if that complicates the prospect of offering that kind of warning.

If it's Google Flights' pricing cache being out of date then that's not an airline dark pattern (Its also possible there is a website dark pattern designed to make an option to pay less by not choosing your seat really non-obvious: I've never booked with Delta)

The airline would say it's your fault for getting a quote from an aggregator rather than direct from them though

A low to negative economic Google product that is poorly supported, hard to imagine, right?

It's not. Delta shows me that there is 1 seat available at this price.

Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo

To be fair, you can still purchase the ticket at the advertised price without selecting a specific “preferred” seat. They’ll give you a seat assignment at checkin or at the gate (usually one of those “preferred” ones).

That said, the fact that this situation is unsurprising to me is itself probably evidence of the communication problem. Google could do a clearer job of qualifying the “free seat selection” they falsely promise for that fare, and Delta could do a much better job of saying “there are only paid seats left, but if you don’t want to buy one, you’ll still get one at the airport.” I feel like JetBlue used to do a good job with that.

I think in his case it's actually a legit website bug/issue. If you try to click through without choosing a seat it doesn't actually work on this particular sales funnel and pops up an error. My suspicion its something to do with it being a very close in flight (2 hours to takeoff). So you have selected a fare with seat selection included, but there are no seats actually left .. maybe some cache isn't updating at minute level frequency.

You don't have to select a seat. Your screenshots (specifically the last one) indicate the product you want to buy is available at the price you want.

What product do you think I am buying? A promise that they might find a seat for me if I show up at the airport?

It puzzles me how many people at HN are so eager to defend dark patterns.

If you look at the screenshots with more attention:

1. Google tells me that the free seat selection is included

2. Delta tells me that if I agree to this price, I will be able to reserve the last available seat on the flight (for this price)

3. Once I confirm the price, Delta tells me that I can’t select the seat, it’s not available. I can still buy the ticket, but the offer has changed. Sure, since clearly I need to get on this flight (booking it last minute) - I would rather pay a bit more to make sure I do have a seat.

This is what dark patterns are all about. How is that so hard to understand?

Because this isn't a dark pattern??? The alternative is you not being able to buy this product, which is much worse!

This fare comes with preselection over a limited set of seats. There are no more seats available for preselection in that set. If seats were available you would have been allowed to select them; otherwise, you will be assigned one at the gate.

It is very unlikely that you will be involuntarily denied boarding, and you can be denied boarding in the event of an oversale even if you have an assigned seat.

Note: your fare never indicates that you are buying a particular seat. Please read your contract of carriage closely. Maybe this part (not the offering of the ticket you're complaining about!) is a "dark pattern" (nobody reads the contract of carriage) but it's just literally how airline tickets have always worked.

Wow, ok. You think there is nothing wrong with the airline telling me that 1 seat is available on one screen and then telling me that there are no seats available unless I pay more on the next screen? (If I go back to the previous screen it still tells me that 1 seat is available.)

The alternative to this is that when I compare prices of different flights I see the correct full offer for the price I want to pay. This flight is not the only available flight. I would have chosen a different flight on Google Flights if I had known that there are no seats available at this price. But now I am 10 minutes into the process and just want to be done.

What is a dark pattern by your definition? A literal picture of a pattern colored dark gray?

> airline telling me that 1 seat is available on one screen and then telling me that there are no seats available unless I pay more on the next screen?

This is a misunderstanding. Airline does not tell that you need to pay more. You can click on Continue button and complete the purchase. Even the popup you have shared tells you exactly this.

Yes, you are right. When you reserve a "table" at a restaurant you are actually not promised chairs. If you want to reserve chairs - that’s +$20. Don’t want to reserve chairs? Just show up at the restaurant and there might be chairs available.

This is a great example. When you reserve a table at the restaurant they might offer you several seating options when they are not busy. But if they are full they will get you seated and not ask you for extra money. But you may end up next to the toilet.

Try reserving a specific table at the restaurant. An hour before the dinner.

That's not the point though. The point is that when you place a reservation, certain things are included. In the case of a restaurant, chairs are included. In the case of Delta, they explicitly state right under the agreed upon price that there is a seat available that I can reserve. It might be close to the restroom, sure. But they should not list this offer as inclusive of seat selection if there are no seats to select.

For some reason you fail to acknowledge that features listed under the price must be included in the price.

> Try reserving a specific table at the restaurant. An hour before the dinner.

Restaurants don't allow you to go through the reservation process to only suddenly mention at the last stage that the table has no chairs, or no table top (just table legs).

> Restaurants don't allow you to go through the reservation process to only suddenly mention at the last stage that the table has no chairs, or no table top (just table legs).

Are you under the impression that they are going to make you stand up on the flight?

There is no ambiguity there. You will get an economy seat or better. If non-premium seats available you will have an option to select one for free. If not, they will assign a premium economy or a comfort+ seat at the time of check-in. If the flight is overbooked having a preselected seat does not guarantee you won't be bumped.

This is something I've observed with different airlines. Google's line "Free seat selection" doesn't guarantee availability of seats to choose from, just that you won't be charged for selecting one if available for your fare.

Delta tells me that there is a seat available at this price before I agree to it. After I agree to it it tells me that there is no seat available at this price unless I pay more.

The agreed upon "seat" in this context includes the selection. This is what this specific dark pattern is about. They are misrepresenting the value of their offering. I want to be able to reserve a seat on my flight. Not to reserve a promise that they will assign a seat... if available, obviously. If not I can just book the next flight and wait for a couple of hours at the ariport. Perfect.

Maybe Google Flights is the issue here? I always use Kayak.

It shows you with little logos below the price if it includes seat selection, carry on and checked baggage.

For a frequent NYC-MIA flight I take I ran a test.

When I clicked through the first random AA price, and then the first random Delta price option I saw, it took me directly to each airline checkout at the exact price listed.

The dark pattern here is that you don't actually have to choose a seat. You can click they disabled-button-colored continue button, click through the warning about not choosing a seat, and avoid paying for the seat choice cost (on each leg there and back).

As a solo traveller, you may not care. As a family you really don't want to be seated away from your kids. If you don't pick seats, will you get seated together? Who knows. Depends on if enough other people who want to pay to pick seats leave enough seats together for you... on a popular flight, that's doubtful.

So it's not just people choosing to pay for a luxury, it's a tax on people who don't know they can skip the step, and on families who may know, but can't roll the dice.

>People have decided they've reserved the right to rock bottom fares and simultaneous complaints about quality of service.

That's not really the case. Airline prices are quite detached from the quality of service. They are more a function of what the airline can get away with in the moment (i.e., surge pricing based on demand). If airline prices were always $100 for low cost, and $200 for frills included, that would be a fine trade. But you will pay anywhere from 100-1000 based on demand irrespective of frills or no frills.

It depends on what you call “premium”.

Delta and AA are still the largest airlines in the US and unless you buy the basic economy tickets, the experience is a lot better and you aren’t nickel and dimed.

The Delta CEO said that only 5% of customers buy the lowest tier ticket.

You might be looking for a different word here. A dark pattern is not fraud or outright lying. These are already illegal. Seeing the total price at the end of the purchasing process is the legal requirement for a sale.

A classic example of a dark pattern is AirBnB. They (used to) show listing prices without all additional fees like cleaning, service fees, etc. So users would end up wasting a lot of time on finding the right offering to only later (yes, before checkout) realize that the total price is actually much higher. Users know how much they end up paying, it's not fraud. But this is still a dark pattern.

Well, I'd argue that you're looking for a different term, but obviously there's no concrete definition here.

I don't think a dark pattern requires any fraud or lying. I think the most obvious example is having users opt in to something (e.g. sharing private data) by default and only offering the option to opt out by navigating some convoluted series of menus. You aren't explicitly lying to users and telling them they can't opt out, but you're going out of your way to make sure the option isn't advertised or easily accessible.

In my opinion, there's a gap between that and what airlines and AirBnB do. I guess there's an element of deception with both, but airlines and AirBnB are just waving a nice number in front of your face to drive engagement. That doesn't personally meet my threshold, but I understand how it might meet yours.

For all that Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates, I do like the fact the price I first see in the ranking is what I pay. Not least because the AirBNB fees usually seems to be how much more it costs to book with them if they have a listing for the same place.

>Booking.com has lots of annoying patterns like telling you how many people looked at a listing and that there's only two rooms (currently) available for those dates

Assuming they're not making up the data, why is this bad? If a hotel is very popular and almost sold-out, isn't that something useful to know when you're making reservations? Sure, it does feel a little high-pressure, but if it's truthful (normal "high pressure sales" tactics aren't, they create a false sense of urgency when in fact there's no shortage at all), it can be useful if you're trying to book a room at a popular place or during a peak time.

In practice I think it's usually inaccurate for medium sized hotels not because Booking.com makes up the data, but because the hotel doesn't release all its inventory to Booking.com at once. Otherwise it's not bad per se, but in combination with the "two people looked at this listing recently" in similarly red letters and all the book now pay later stuff, it does feel a bit like booking with someone shouting at you to hurry up

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