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Comment by xrd | Hacker News Reader

I'm in a hotel in Clearwater Florida right now.

The coffee shop added an automatic and mandatory 19% gratuity. I always thought I was only forced to pay 18%!

The buffet this morning did the same thing. The receipt says "18% is gratuity, 1% is for operating costs."

I thought paying for a meal included the operating costs. I'm shocked to find out those were provided for free up to this point, I feel so grateful that the restaurants didn't need to pass these on to me.

And, I'm a little surprised that neither of these two experiences required anything from the servers other than handing me or my kids a drink.

I assume this is because this hotel probably has a lot of tourists from countries where they don't tip. And, I always tip my barista at least 20% but that's because I go to the same place and know them beyond just as a server, and a hotel in Clearwater will never foster that relationship between anyone.

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Mandatory gratuity and the "operating cost" charges can be declined unless it is clearly listed and displayed before ordering (and even then it can arguably be declined). This is why you see "mandatory X% gratuity for Y reasons" on menus (e.g. for large groups). If you knew this terrible gratuity beforehand, then you're basically stuck (or can walk away before ordering). However, if they sprung this on you without clear notice, you don't have to pay it.

This comes down to the same reason why when you click "buy" on some website, they can't say "oh look we added a secret X% f** you fee!". Similarly, this is the reason why when you negotiate a rate with a lawyer, accountant, gardener, or other professional, they can't add random fees that weren't discussed. My climbing gym has had big signs up and has sent myriad emails over the past few months leading up to a new credit card processing fee for this very reason.

If you had great service, I would still recommend fighting this and then tipping the server directly with cash. These "mandatory tips" don't go to the server, but are usually pooled and mostly taken by management. If the restaurant is one of the few ones that is equitable between the staff members (e.g. if the tip gets automatically split between front and back of house), then that might be the one exception where paying a surprise mandatory fee would be okay.

default opt-out should be illegal

Is it even possible to opt out? I had no idea I could. Good to know.

from what I understand, and have done sometimes, is that you can opt out of “employee surcharges” “mandates” things that look like pandemic era excuses to charge more

but not the auto-added tip? never challenged those I just dont leave an additional tip or revisit those venues as often

Please file a complaint with the FTC. They need every data point possible. I’ll Venmo you for your time (a coffee ;) if needed (currently sitting in a bar on St Pete Beach).

https://reportfraud.ftc.gov/

I shall be in St Pete in a few weeks. Let me know of the good daytime bars

Shadrack’s and The Wharf on St Pete Beach. Mastry’s in downtown St Pete. Enjoy!

Mandatory gratuity for a non-tipped employees should be 100% forbidden.

Who is a "tipped versus non-tipped employee"? I think for servers coming to your table it's actually spelled out in law, for everything else it's a social convention that businesses can try to shove in one direction.

It is a legal distinction. In most places there is a lower minimum wage for tipped employees. The law says what jobs qualify for the tipped minimum.

(Legally, they have to make up the difference if you didn't make enough in tips. But most servers make more than that via tips, which is why they often fight efforts to eliminate tipping.)

Also, wage theft is one of the most common things that happens to restaurant workers, because a lot of employers try to avoid making up the difference.

In the UK, where minimum wage is OK (not great, but OK), and we don’t have those garbage US shenanigans where tipped employees can get paid a pittance, many payment terminals add a 10% tip automatically (especially at bars). Many restaurants also add a 10% tip to the bill (For everyone, not just parties of > 6).

I really wish it were outlawed. The price paid should be the price displayed, unless the circumstances are exceptional. You cannot display prices without VAT so how it is allowed to display prices without the forced tip?

“It’s optional”. Sure, if you enjoy having your food spat in the next time you return.

> those garbage US shenanigans where tipped employees can get paid a pittance

Unless you're in California and some other states where there is "tipped" minimum wage and you get both a full wage and the tips.

And even in other states I got the impression that most (or at least many) waiter and other tipped stuff prefer the current system to getting the minimum wage and barely any tips

I haven’t lived in the US so I can’t really comment on the situation there. But my point is, the US model is infecting other countries which already have minimum wages and don’t suffer from problem tips in the US solve (AKA, insanely low minimum wages in some states for tipped servers).

Why should the minimum wage bartender at Brewdog get an automatic 10% tip when the minimum wage employee at Tesco doesn’t?

> wages and don’t suffer from problem tips in the US solve (AKA, insanely low minimum wages in some states for tipped servers).

Well many waiters earn considerably more than the minimum wage in the US. In large part because of this system. I'm not sure why does the society value their work that much (in relation to most other service workers which is of course unfair). However, essentially what you're advocating is lower wages for some service workers just because the rest are possibly overpaid?

in other countries, server is just a position like any other that has wage competition. a fancy restaurant will try and spend to get the high quality servers it wants.

> essentially what you're advocating is lower wages for some service workers just because the rest are possibly overpaid?

How have you arrived at that conclusion? I am arguing that a) the tip should be included in the price, and b) people should be paid a fair wage by their employer WITHOUT sneaking hidden fees onto customers.

Also, I’ve made it abundantly clear I’m referring to the UK, yet you keep bringing up America. You seem determined to misunderstand me.

Most fun are those places where you need to order via the website or an app and still have this automatic tip that's a pain to opt out off

That is the law in the entire US. You have to receive a normal minimum wage if your tips don't bring you to that level on the lower tip worker's wage.

You're right, but he's talking about states where tipped employees receive the same minimum wage, paid by the employer, as anyone else plus tips. See my comment / question about how this works out in practice.

[Edited because I find the terminology of "tipped minimum" confusing.]

Regarding the "tipped minimum" vs. full wage and tips, I've been wondering for a while how this works out in practice, and I've yet to find an answer.

Like do waitresses in California, earning the full $15.50 minimum wage plus tips (and tipping is no less prevalent in California), really end up making 50%+ more money than waitresses in Massachusetts where employers can claim a $8.25 tip credit to cover more than half of the $15 tipped minimum?

Yes they do. So long as their employer isn't doing something illegal.

It’s universally 12.5% in London.

>I always tip my barista at least 20%

I’m sorry but tipping 20% for coffee is nuts.

I'm sorry, but the US tipping culture as a whole is nuts.

(I'm Russian who lurks in the English-speaking segment of the internet way too much)

Czechs think so, too. Rounding up to the closest convenient monetary value is fine (like 50 CZK from 47), but the US rules could as well be from another planet.

Everybody I know who visited the US was bewildered.

Well, you forget that in the US an item with prize 47 actually costs 52 because tax is also not included.

Some people in Russia insist on tipping. They usually do it by leaving a 50 or 100-ruble note in the bill folder thing even if they paid by card. There's never any provision to tip with card in one go like in the US, it's always an extra, strictly optional step.

Some places where you pay at the counter would have a tip jar, or even a small electronic device you tap your card on to tip a fixed amount. These are ignored by most people.

Some of us are starting to wake up and open our eyes though.

I've personally stopped tipping in most places I go to. I might leave 10% at a high-end restaurant with really good service, but in general I leave a very minimal tip at sit-down restaurants, and pretty much never leave any tip for any sort of takeout/counter service.

I know the wait staff see that and think I'm an asshole, and I don't care. I'm fine with being an asshole to avoid getting fleeced, and I've not yet had any issues with service, even on return visits.

I think we all agree that tipping sucks, but it’s the world we live in (in the US at least). Wantonly refusing to tip waitstaff just means you’re Mr. Pink,[1] and I don’t think anyone wants to be Mr. Pink.

[1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk

He's the only one that lived at the end of the movie if I recall correctly, so everyone would want to be mr Pink?

His rant also convinced other people on that table because there was no flaw in his reasoning.

Where I live, waitstaff are paid the same minimum wage as every other worker, there's no tipped vs non-tipped dichotomy here. The way I see it, if all you did as waitstaff for me, was bring me glass of water, take my order using your tablet where you just tapped a few buttons, and then finally brought out the plate of food...I don't see how that deserves much consideration.

Sure, if I go to a nice restaurant, and the waiter chats me up, figures out what I like, suggests some dishes, does some non-standard stuff to make my experience at the restaurant memorable -- I will tip that. But if all you're doing as a waiter in my locale is tapping a few buttons on your POS handheld and then later bringing over a couple of plates, I don't see that as being worth much of a tip.

As much as I like the advent of things like square and toast to provide convenient checkout, they've added a lot of tipping in places where it wasn't as common. There are all sorts of things I buy now where I get that little electronic checkout screen and options for 18/20/22/25% tipping. When before there *may* have been a tip jar. If that.

I make a point to find the no tip option. It's there but usually buried under a sub-menu on a different page.

Why can’t this person spend their money how they want?

Most people seem not to tip baristas at all. I make my own coffee 99% of the time, so on the few days per year when I buy it, I tip around 20% because it's a luxury, and if everyone who could easily afford the extra few dollars did so, baristas might actually have fair income. Same for eating at restaurants, etc.

I acknowledge that it's a workaround for a larger problem, but I have low confidence that the US will actually address that problem within my lifetime.

If their employer raised their rates 10% they could increase the wages of all low wage front line employees by 1/3. Instead in general we see prices going up in some cases several times actual inflation and wages that at best track it.

The nice things about tips is that it adds voluntary price discrimination. If you want to pay more you can. A raised price on the other hand raises a price floor which may disuade customers who are more cost sensitive.

The reality seems to be that if you tip below the expected amount, you'll be treated poorly, judged, or berated for doing so.

What's more, from the discussions I've read, the expected amount has increased vastly over the last decade.

It’s interesting because the origin of tipping in the US came about during the post civil war period, when black people needed jobs but nobody wanted to pay them because you know they had been doing it for free just a short while ago. The expectation was that the guest would pay them, not the employer. I guess we still have that mindset.

If they're not earning a fair income, then their wage/salary should be increased. It's ridiculous to make their pay vary from day to day depending on how guilty their customers feel.

A general rule is to tip at least a dollar a drink, whether it's beer or beans

That's a rule made up by the servers. Busy bar servers will ignore you, but you'll get your coffee no matter what made up rule you don't follow.

The weirdest part of this for me (not American) is that my local daily coffee shop throws in free items for me - sometimes comps the coffee or gives banana bread or something to reward a frequent customer. The idea that a frequent customer feels like they need to tip extra as the OP says blows my mind.

Free comps are psychology (more likely classical conditioning). It is the same psychological quirk which makes gambling so appealing. When training dogs, treats work far better when you randomly “jackpot” the reward. The lizard brain is willing to grind out the low paying rewards longer in hopes of the next high paying reward.

Sure, my point is it's the OPPOSITE of feeling like I should tip/tip extra as a regular as OP said. My overall costs are lower as a regular which makes sense.

Well yeah, but I think point being made here is it is shop that feels rewarding customer and not the customer that is socially forced to reward server at coffee shop counter every single time.

I don't understand how this isn't considered fraud.

A reasonable person would look at the price on a menu and conclude that this is the price that they will be paying.

And no an asterisk and a tiny piece of writing somewhere does not make this not fraud.

it can't be called a gratuity if it's mandatory

That would be gratuitous.

A word that means, both free and unjustified.

Businesses do this to hide the cost of inflation by presenting lower fees than they are willing to accept for their services.

Are they? From what I've seen, prices has gone dramatically since inflation.

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