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Comment by arcticbull | Hacker News Reader

Interestingly enough, they're specced the opposite way.

> Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the Mini-USB receptacle increased this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal. [1]

> To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved from the jack to the plug, so that the most-stressed part is on the cable side of the connection. This change was made so that the connector on the less expensive cable would bear the most wear. [1]

I suspect that would make it the responsibility of the cable, not the receptacle, to give you that satisfying feedback. Which is good, because the cable is much cheaper and easier to replace than the receptacle.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware

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The insertion cycles are only for proper insertion. Like when you are looking at it and doing it at a correct angle.

Also, rated lifetime does not take into account things like tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.

USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.

USB C might be created to withstand more insertion cycles. After all it is meant to be used for devices like phones that are plugged in and out constantly. Part of this improvement is just more experience creating connectors (yes, connectors got much better in the past decades).

A cable connected to a back of PC is not being constantly plugged in and out. Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.

When I design my boards, I put connectors that match the size of the board. I don't put extremely tiny connectors on a very large and massive project. I want a connector that isn't too fragile for the project and this means matching it with the forces that you can expect.

We, humans, use different forces when around large objects than when we are around small objects.

Large PC standing on your desk means forces used around it will be potentially larger than forces around a small appliance like a phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to the phone, only small force is needed to move the phone. And we are usually more careful around a small appliance like phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to a PC, much larger force will be needed before you move the PC. And people are less careful and using larger forces when doing things around a PC -- a larger object than a phone.

I once bent the USB-C connector on a dell dock just because the cable is stiff and the bend from going below my desk put too much force on the connector. It still works, but has an angle now. If the cable wasn't permanently attached, having the wear parts on that side would be fine. The EU should definitely mandate that, I don't see any technical reasons for soldering one side of the cable.

On the WD19/22TB it's actually user-replacable/upgradable, but parts aren't necessarily easy to find.

I've ruined many usbc connectors like this and specifically dell dock connectors

> yes, connectors got much better in the past decades

Really? How is e.g. the HDMI connectors "better" than the VGA connectors? VGA connectors seems far more robust to me. Same with d-sub mouse connectors.

I guess the signal rating is better now but the old ones didn't need high frequency capabilities.

VGA connectors were incredibly irritating to deal with, especially since so many of them were equipped with smooth screwing bolts with very little area to spin them with your fingers. I for one don't miss this.

If you wanted to have quick insert connection you could just not tighten the screws. I almost never tightened the screws, but it was good on monitors which were pivoting.

I am writing this on a screen where the HDMI connector pops out if a even touch it.

Just tighten one of them, its what i do half the time

And other half of the time you tighten another?

Yes :P. I’m a coward and never put it in without tightening at least one or both

I drilled two holes in my laptop as it had no room for VGA cable screws :D (about 2y ago)

> I am writing this on a screen where the HDMI connector pops out if a even touch it.

Just one more reason to switch to DisplayPort. The only downside of DisplayPort over VGA is that it's up to the connector model if it locks, not user input; but other than that DisplayPort seems clearly superior over VGA. Apart from the obvious signal improvements, slightly more compact design and the recessed port, even an non-locking cable sits far more securely than an unsecured VGA cable.

If I had to choose between a disconnection and damaged circuitry… I managed to pull too strongly on a DisplayPort cable plugged into monitor, resulting in broken PCB. Luckily, the HDMI wasn't affected.

Honestly, I have never tightened those screws.

Some of them actually had an end slot that could be tightened / untightened by a regular screwdriver It took me ages to realise this.

In the 1980s and presumably before, plugs like this often only had screws you needed a screwdriver to tighten.

I don't know if this was to prevent people disconnecting things, or if the expectation was that once connected, things should stay that way for years.

It helped me a lot when I had a colleague who had a strong workman's hands and who could not be found at the end of presentations where he had set up the projector's cabling.

I bent a few pins in a VGA connector due to misalignment once. This was when the cable was hardwired into the monitor!

Ye maybe I am just nostalgic. Hard to tell.

You never had one of the pins slightly bending so the connector wouldn't fit anymore and you had to manually try to bend it back?

Sure. But if I remember correctly the cable ends are both male, so it was never the device that got bent. In some sense weakness on the right part is a feature.

every meeting room had a long semi-permanent cable wired through the walls / floors. bent pins on those were not fun.

Once you’ve been involved in repairing them, you start to insist on the sane approach - cable in the wall, connected to a faceplate which has a plug on the back and a plug on the front. That way any damage can be repaired without re running the cable.

VGA DVI and HDMI all have their major issues, DisplayPort is the clear winner in all aspects.

I have never bend the pins on HDMI connectors. It doesn't even occur to me that it could even happen. I have bent dozens of vga connectors. At least you can bend them back.

You may only have dealt with your own devices. Yes, VGA devices were much harder to accidentally unplug or become loose than HDMI. But they were often far more solidly connected than e.g. the mount on a video card, or the attachment of a laptop motherboard to it's case. So you would find components which had been messed up internally by the use of a VGA connector as a leverage point.

Yep, harder to accidentally unplug is a large negative for a generic cable. There very few applications where it's a good thing, and connecting a computer to a display isn't one of them. IMO, DP in particular shouldn't have the locking mechanism.

But becoming loose without unpluging isn't good either.

There are many times I've tried to insert USB-A wrong since it's rectangular but only has one correct way and sometimes the fit is tight and sometimes it's hard to see the socket (behind a PC, under a monitor, etc...)

USB-C doesn't have this issue. Much better

  > tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.
  > USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.

Zip tie the cable to the case?

Once you accidentally insert the usb c cable into the wrong port and short out your mobo you start Inserting it properly and start fearing it :/

Funny you say that, I can tell from family experience that USB type A ports are quite fragile to a vertical tug as it breaks the internal plastic bar at its base so you're left with a hole full of floating copper pins. It of course requires more than a light tug, but less than you'd think.

The USB-C housing is much more rigid than that of type A, so it should handle this much better. The thinner bar might also handle deflection better by virtue of flexibility.

Also, hardware engineers know that ports are operated by drunk gorillas. Incorrect usage and odd forces are considered when designing a physical interface.

Can't comment on USB-C yet and obviously case point 1, but on my desktop tower (Fractal Design 6, so should be quality) I have for cca 5 years, the frontal USB-A connectors which are used most often, 2 out of 4 are already dead (I'd say maybe 500 insertions altogether, definitely not more). 1 is sort of in between, sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.

I generally know very well how to take care of electronics and those ports never experienced that dreaded 'vertical tug' you describe, at least to my knowledge.

I like this post. No trolling: Did you report the issue to Fractal? I am sure they wish to hear your valuable feedback. They might also offer to replace your case with the latest version!

P.S. I am not a shill for Fractal, but a faithful owner.

Tank you for the advice, I guess too lazy to deal with logistics and customs (living in Switzerland, some stuff trivial in US is... not so trivial in more diverse Europe). On top of not really having desktop working for who knows how long.

Plus planning to build new desktop soon, I'll still probably go with them (Define 7 is my pick so far), I think I had just bad luck since they have quite solid reputation and most other cases are not to my taste or needs.

In my two previous laptops I insisted on having four USB ports because I anticipated that they would wear out eventually and wear out they did - electrically they work, but mechanically half of them barely hold the plug in.

Meanwhile I have a USB-C to USB-A multi-dongle to which I have connected my mouse and keyboard and I move the whole thing between the work and private laptop on a daily basis and despite that after three years only the plug part is showing signs of wear. The socket is fine.

Same goes for the charge port in my phone. Still works as advertised even though I went through a few cables in those six years since I bought it.

> Fractal Design 6, so should be quality

Side note: I too wish this brand guaranteed quality. I have two Fractal Design cases, a Define R6 and an Era. The former is quite good, the latter is crap - panels don't fit. Btw, they cost the same (fucking expensive).

I really wish we’d end up with something like the old MagSafe.

maybe we can get that for USB-D in 2025 after the Apple magsafe patent runs out

Microsoft had a magnetic connector on the Surface laptops so I don’t thing patents are standing in the way.

Even before that, magnetic power connectors were common on kitchen appliances like kettles and fryers.

Can we just stop changing things up in the USB world for a while? USB-C causes me more headaches than the prior USB incarnations do, but changing these things is itself painful enough that I'd rather just put up with what we have now than change yet again.

What is your opinion on magnetic usb c adapters? For about 10€ you get 140W charging and 40Gbps.

Compared to magsafe it is not recessed (though that has not been an issue in my experience), but on the plus side it also does data, video and is universal. Currently using the same type of adapter for my laptop, phone and tablet with the ends on various chargers and docking stations.

I had a number of them from two or three different brands.

They had tendency to cause sparking and I lost at least one phone due to it. The phone was fine but it lost ability to be charged through the USB port. And because it did not have wireless charging, when the battery ran out it became an expensive brick.

Yikes. Haven't had an issue yet with the ones I use. Good to know.

Yup, I lost a chromebook that way. I think magnetic connections are fine for 5V power with no data line, but as soon as you add more connections and try increasing voltage/power you are asking for trouble.

My deep fryer has a magnetic connection for the power cord. That's high voltage and wattage, and works just fine.

Because the only two pins are hot and neutral, which are designed to have high voltage across them.

Put 20 V Vbus on a CC line and see what happens.

That seems more likely to be because that design was bad rather than that the concept is bad.

can't it be repaired?

MagSafe was quite bad tbh. Exposed contacts that easily get contaminated and magnets attracting nearby particles to degrade the connection. At the same time, the disconnect force in the vertical direction is far too small (place the laptop on something soft and the connector tilts), and in the horizontal and perpendicular directions high enough to still yank the laptop.

I do not know if the new MagSafe is an improvement over V1 and v2, but solid connections or non-contact charging are the way to go.

    The insertion cycles are only for proper insertion.

Every time I see comments like this I think of the COVID-19 trolls who insisted that masks were only helpful if "worn correctly".

Proper? Please. Why not just say that the connector suffers from poor design and is difficult to plug correctly. Everything else is humiliating the average user, like my parents, with advanced degrees whom are not STEM.

> Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.

If you securely store a laptop at the end of each workday then you're up to 1 cycle per day minimum. It will be more than that if you're required to secure the laptop during coffee breaks and/or if you work from several places in a work-day.

The quote is specifically talking about desktops not mobile use cases like laptops

Minimum is just that, minimum.

Have you ever seen a broken standard USB port or connector? Me not once in my entire life, unlike micro-USB or USB-C.

I surely have. Any even semi-public USB power socket is hanging on by a thread, some of them have the inside paddles snapped off entirely. I haven't seen a Type C one in such a state yet, but I eagerly await it.

The problem with usb c (but also mini and micro) is the weak connector on the device itself. The way its connected to the board is way weaker than a large usb a connector on a motherboard. Accidentally pullen a keyboard while attached will for sure destroy a usb c port. A usb a most likely survive.

That's going to depend on the connector. Plenty have through-hole mounts. You can also get surface-mount type A connectors.

They all do. Yet it still doesn't help. Those 4 little retaining lugs are fixed into the board only by solder, which is fragile and will crack after a while, esp. when the connector is mated/demated constantly and forces are applied to it.

USB A has those lugs much larger and usually also bent under the board or twisted, so the connector isn't fixed into the PCB only by solder.

USB C and micro USB are mostly designed for clamshell enclosures such as a typical phone - in that case the connector shell is supported by the enclosure itself (ideally through some flexible padding) and not only by the flimsy contacts/solder lugs.

However, there are plenty of devices on the market where these connectors are not supported like that because the designer has been an idiot - and guess which devices end up in the landfill with broken off connectors the most.

Breaking the old school USB A, square USB B or mini USB is almost impossible like this unless one applies really unreasonable amount of force. I have only ever managed to accidentally destroy a USB A port once like that by accidentally hitting a USB stick hanging out of it - but the board and the adjacent ports were fine, only the port shell and contacts were destroyed.

Mini USB-B is still not very robust in terms of connection the board. I’ve got a couple devices here where the port is ripped off the PCB. (I voluntarily [attempt to] repair devices for friends, so I see more than a typical rate of failed parts.)

By some definition, that’s evidence of unreasonable force, but it definitely happens and should be anticipated when you put the device in the hands of lots of gorillas.

> Those 4 little retaining lugs are fixed into the board only by solder,

You're saying this as though there's a single design of USB-C cable to board connector. There are, in fact, many different designs, including many with "lugs" which go through the board, as well as mid-mount connectors which use the material of the PCB as structural support.

Yup, bricked a old gopro with a mini connector by tearing it off the circuitboard. Didn't think that could happen so I wasn't particularly careful but it's physics, small things break easier.

Simply put your money where your mouth is.

Framework laptops come with expansion cards that are on sturdy rails and serve as the world-facing USB-C/A/HDMI/SD card/whatever connection. The inner connector on the mainboard is well protected.

https://frame.work/assets/pdp/expansion-card-9240577483dc9e2...

I know the repair place I worked at sees a lot of broken USB-C ports. Way more than they ever had A. They hate the new, smaller ports because they're usually built very flimsily unless it's Apple.

To be fair, I haven't seen a USB C power port available in public once so far myself, and while it would be nifty for them to become the norm over USB-A, I really think it's a bad idea to subject users to unknown USB charging ports in public. A wall outlet can't pretend to be a keyboard, for instance.

My laptop has a opinion which side is up on usb c and doesn't connect the other way around (the way docking stations use)

I basically have to replace my laptop to use my docking station just because usb c isn't sturdy enough :/

Did the USB C port ever work that way? Extra electronics are needed to support being able to flip the high speed connects like that. Maybe the laptop never had that?

I bought it used and only realized it later, but yes it's supposed to work on both sides.

Never seen a broken public A port, but maybe it was because the A port was already there for a decade and got good wear while public C ones are relatively new? And I think many people still use A to C cables on the go because those ports are way more common, so they just get a lot more wear.

The terminal seating at LAX has both 110 VAC plugs and USB-A plugs where the cable falls out as soon as you let go of it.

As the goto electronics guy I have swen broken USB A but not broken USB-C (yet). USB-C is sturdy, the weakness is either going to be the cable or the bonding of the copper with the PCB. Both is basically a matter of go much money the manufacturers are willing to spend.

My experiences differ. I've had plenty of USB-C devices of which the port becomes very loose after a while of normal use. I'm glad my current phone has wireless charging, not because of its convenience but because that way I don't wear out the USB-C port.

USB-A is so simple, two holes and some leaf springs make for a satisfying clunk that doesn't wear out so quickly.

Are you sure there isn’t just dirt in the port? Or a bad cable? I’ve consistently had luck cleaning gunk out of USB C ports and having them work like new.

> I've had plenty of USB-C devices of which the port becomes very loose after a while of normal use.

I used to think the same thing, until I looked into how the USB-C plug actually operates: The movable spring parts are all in the cable, so if there's anything wearing out, it's usually that.

Clean the plug/port (lint collecting in the back of the port prevents a proper connection and makes the haptic feedback feel off), possibly swap out the cable if the springs in it are really worn out, and things are as good as new.

> some leaf springs make for a satisfying clunk that doesn't wear out so quickly.

But once they do, you have a broken USB port.

> so if there's anything wearing out, it's usually that.

And yet, very nearly all of the USB-C connector breakage that I've experienced has been the socket-side, not on the cable.

My experience was that most of the time it was the cable, followed by dirt in the port.

Now PCB quality can also wildly differ and the bonding between substrate and pads can be a weak point if the manufacturer of the device went for the cheapest possible PCB. But for that you have through-hole USB-C connectors and cables that should break before the connector.

So if your USB-C connector breaks off the PCB that is on the manufacturer of the device.

Absolutely, the two on the front of my HAF 932 were the first things to break, in fact.

Funny enough, I've never seen a micro or C break :D

My USB C’s sometimes fail. The slot is not firm, and is loosened over time.

yeah, I had to replace the front ports on my current PC case because the center part of the plugs came out...

Is the solution to have easily-replaceable USB sockets?

Or standardizing USB-XLR.

People would complain about the price of the cables, the size of the cables, and the size of the devices.

Small is fragile, and fragile should be replaceable.

With an XLR connector if you pull you will rip the motherboard apart.

never had a broken USB-A, but definitely owned one and seen another USB C in which the tiny board in the middle of the socket broke off

Yeah but 10,000 connections is WAY past any reasonable motherboard lifespan. Meaning the minimum for USB-C is ridiculously over-engineered for any motherboard.

As the user above points out, this is ideal insertions, and not necessarily representative of the kinds of situations it is likely to encounter.

> Yeah but 10,000 connections is WAY past any reasonable motherboard lifespan.

I just don't believe that those connectors last that long in the real world. My personal experience and observations indicate that they don't. Or, at least, they're much less robust than earlier USB connector designs.

you're lucky usb-c ports are failing constantly

i most definitely have seen more broken A ports in my life than I’ve seen broken C ports. I still remember being mystified by my elementary school janitor bending one back into shape(-ish) back when i was 6 or something lol

> Have you ever seen a broken standard USB port or connector? Me not once in my entire life, unlike micro-USB or USB-C.

USB-A has failed just as often as Micro-USB in my experience. The only connector I haven't seen break is USB-B, but that could be due to fewer samples, since only printers seem to use that connector, and how often do you unplug/plug a printer?

I've seen many.

In more rental cars than not, the USB-A port is somewhat worn out, which is really annoying as it can make CarPlay connections quite fragile.

I've also seen many USB-A ports in airplanes not being able to hold the cable anymore due to the spring contacts being worn out or having been bent out of shape.

Micro-USB had on paper better insertion/removal cycles than Mini-USB, but in practice Micro-USB connectors were flimsy garbage and Mini-USB fairly robust for the size.

Not exactly flimsy, but they often have super high friction, translating into some seriously rough handling.

And one messed up cable could force them enough so that they break.

USB-C solved this by demanding thick walls on every side of the cable's connector.

Not arguing that this isn't a good idea, but considering that the A port looks gigantic compared to C it seems those springs being a couple times larger also makes them a lot more durable, to the point where it's a non-issue.

Maybe they designed this way, but in practice usb-c ports are getting destroyed over time and not cables. On my two Samsung phones ports started degrading over 2 years use and after 3-4 years they are trash, barely connecting without fix to any cable. Same cables connected to the less used hosts, like new Kindle or new powerbank connect snugly and hold fine. I feel that usb-c port design is just garbage or maybe pushes materials too far.

And I've never ever seen a usb-a port break or the cable connector part.

Personally I think these numbers are fabricated horseshit, drafted by some engineer behind a desk running endless simulations.

The USB industrial complex made the same claims with micro-USB vs mini-USB; and are now doing it again with Type-C.

My empirical evidence: I've now had to replace two laptop motherboards due to a (mechanically) failed USB-C port.

Guess what I haven't had to do in 25 years? Replace a failed USB-A socket. Ever.

USB-C connectors are fragile and companies are making more and more large, heavy cables with huge connectors especially common with Thunderbolt or port replicator-type devices. It is a recipe for disaster and they expect us to fall for this USB Jedi Mind Trick again.

The connector lifetimes are tested by some manufacturers. When I was working on USB (electrical) testing at Microsoft we had test jigs for testing connectors to failure and I can vouch for Microsoft's connectors having lifetimes exceeding 25,000 insertions.

We would also test how many miles a mouse would travel before the glides would wear out.

The fragility comes from how easy it is to damage them by handling them incorrectly. The fact that you can insert them properly 25000 times without damage doesn't change this.

we had test jigs for testing connectors to failure[...] 25,000 insertions

That's likely to be the exact reason why the reliability specs don't line up with reality: your test jigs are almost certainly going to be inserting the plugs directly with exact precision, whereas in practice people are going to just "jam it in" and apply significant side-loads as well as misalignment and levering forces.

It's not hard to design a connector that'll last 25k precisely aligned insertions by a test jig but will consistently fail after a few cycles of being mated by typical "hamfisted" users.

>That's likely to be the exact reason why the reliability specs don't line up with reality: your test jigs are almost certainly going to be inserting the plugs directly with exact precision, whereas in practice people are going to just "jam it in" and apply significant side-loads as well as misalignment and levering forces.

as someone who was involved with endurance/reliability testing of other physical products, I think you'd be surprised.

Randomized jitter and movement patterns are often replicated and considered.

I agree with the parent's comment. I also worked with automated test setups and did human tests. Nothing compares to a human tester. We tested small remote controlls and it was amazing to see that a human hand can inflict more damage to the product that an automated test setup. (the remote was given to different persons just to push the buttons until we reached the desired number of button presses).

I guess most damage actually does not happen during insertion itself but when someone trips over the cable while the plug is in the socket. Simply because of its bigger size that force is then applied to a bigger grip surface and thus lower per square millimeters on USB-A while the forces will be much bigger with C

> your test jigs are almost certainly

Why assume that? Why not be humble and just ask the person with first hand knowledge instead of basically attacking their setup based on guessing?

Because you can search for what connector testing machines look like, and they all look like they'll just destroy the connector if it isn't aligned correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdIdEbr9wQQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GkDnQlesUM

This is true. A test system will only apply force from one or more predefined directions. A user, on the other side will not take care that he inserts the connector at 45 degrees +/- 3 degrees.

This is like Samsung testing their foldable phone... in a clean room.

How can a large usb A port be weaker than a tiny usb c port? If you attach a keyboard and throw it out of the window the usb A port will remain ok whereas the usb c port instantly gets damaged.

Of course you want the port to be weaker than the board it is attached to, so that the port breaks rather than the board.

> How can a large usb A port be weaker than a tiny usb c port?

Because for USB-A, the part that wears down is in the port, while for USB-C it's in the plug.

> If you attach a keyboard and throw it out of the window the usb A port will remain ok whereas the usb c port instantly gets damaged.

Have you tried that yourself, a statistically significant number of times?

> Because for USB-A, the part that wears down is in the port, while for USB-C it's in the plug.

I've had a number of USB-C ports break, I've never has a USB-A port break.

My phone is 4 years old and it's type-c port completely destroyed for the last year, it barely connects (and cables are good, verified on the newer hosts). Even we assume I've connected it 2 times per each day every day, ot would mean about 2000-3000 insertions tops. This is an order of magnitude worse than that fantasy 25k number. Another phone with 1000-2000 insertions over life time is also showing port degradation.

And I charge my phones in 99% of cases at home, stationary and undisturbed.

Then the tests must be faulty. At least, they don't reflect the real-world experience of me and my friends. USB-C has a much higher failure rate for us.

In my experience, it's entirely manufacturer-dependent. Comparing Apple, Dell and Lenovo, the Dell and the Apple machines (MacBook Pros and XPS 13) have had no problems. Both feel as good as the day they were purchased. The Lenovo (ThinkPad P14s/x280) had connectors falling out after around six months - which is particularly annoying given that they charge over USB C. Overall, I've been massively disappointed by the build quality of the more recent ThinkPads, especially since they get a lot of individuals espousing their benefits here, especially over the MacBooks.

I once worked in an office where virtually everyone (30ish people) had failed USB-C ports on their MacBooks. This was around 2017. I don’t know if Apple fixed this, out of fear I baby the ports on my 2018 MBP, and they still click like brand new. So I do know that when treated with extreme care they will last. Just feels silly though.

I’m definitely one of the few people lamenting Apple’s forced hand in moving to C on the iPhone. Lightning is incredible. It takes so much abuse and yet still fits like the day I bought the phone. Not looking forward to having to baby my phone’s port as well when I upgrade.

Apple had the opportunity to make Lightning a standard. They could have dropped the royalties and enabled USB3/4 speeds on all their devices YEARS ago. They did neither and, predictably, an open standard came along and took over.

I should add that’s it’s not a perfect connector. Every lightening cable I’ve ever owned has eventually developed corrosion on the male connector, leading to spotty connection with the device. I’ve never had that problem with USB-A or C. Probably because the pins aren’t exposed, so aren’t ever touched by my sweaty/oily/acid fingers. That said, it’s usually a quick fix with some rubbing alcohol.

My USB C connector failed on my Dell 5520 about 2 or 3 years in. None of the USB-A ports have failed yet, and that computer is pushing 6 years old now.

USB C is, in my experience, much more sensitive than USB-A to real-world usage.

My empirical evidence: I've now had to replace two laptop motherboards due to a (mechanically) failed USB-C port.

I have had laptops with only USB-C ports since 2015 and not a single one failed. I also don't know anyone who had a broken USB-C port. There is probably variance between manufacturers.

And variance between users, some people grab the cable and yank it to remove the plug from the socket, for example.

Exactly. There is no way a significantly smaller connector with way more pins can be as robust as a large one with less pins. It is 100% horseshit.

My anecdote to add, but this time comparing USB-c power delivery with the lowly ~8mm barrel jack. I recently got a laptop shipped to me by a remote client to use to connect to their network. I pull it out of the box set it up and I notice the usb c power cable has the slightest of kinks...

Of course it wouldn't charge. I managed to manipulate the cable, holding it, pressing at various angles long enough to use the device until a replacement PSU was delivered. A barrel jack wouldn't care in the slightest about such kink. And if it didn't work I could get another barrel jack from an electronic parts store the same day, chop off the old one and solder the new one on. Good luck doing that with usb-c.

BTW, let me also rant here on the (lack of) usb-c PD compatibility even between devices made by the same manufacturer at the same time.

As the above was happening I happened to have another Dell xps laptop sitting on my desk with another usb-C power supply. I thought to myself, I'll just use one PSU for both, right? But before I tried my inate cynism made me think "surely they would not make it so convenient for us" so I googled if this is a good idea. Turns out no. The PSU I had was 90W while the other laptop required 120W. I read stories of it simply not working, but also of broken PSUs. I decided to try anyway and the laptop that needs 120W psu wouldn't even boot with the 90w PSU. I thought maybe it would throttle down the components. Nope, a bios message said, unplug it or else.

So yes, I agree the magnificent claims of usb c resolving all sorts of problems are all horseshit. The only real problem they really resolved is that it is reversible. Also the ideas of PD and sending eDP over it were good, just implemented poorly.

Just use the 120w on both…

Of course something that needs 120w isn’t going to be able to be be powered by a 90w supply.

This is not a problem. Frankly it sounds like you don’t understand how electricity works.

I use the same USB-C GaN charger for all of my devices including MacBook Pro and Sony A7RIV. It’s 200W…

Just buy a big enough charger and you’re good.

> Of course something that needs 120w isn’t going to be able to be be powered by a 90w supply.

That might be true for desktops (and even these could very well throttle their TDP based on available power), but most laptops I know can actually just supply the difference from their battery.

I personally just wouldn't get a laptop that can't run on a much more compact lower power wall adapter. Being able to use a tiny 20W power brick in a pinch is great.

Since 2018 I've charged, operated, and booted a variety of USB-C devices over a variety of USB-C PD power sources.

e.g MacBooks of the 60W and 90W variety I've operated on 90, 60, 45, 30, 20, 15, and 5W chargers, car adapters, power banks, displays, powered hubs, or other USB PD devices. Of course on 5W they can't charge while in use (even idling, where they ~maintain charge) and booting requires them to have enough of a battery charge to support the boot power surge, but it has always worked: PD has always negotiated to the best power the charger could do. IOW when manufacturers do their job, it works.

> A barrel jack wouldn't care in the slightest about such kink.

Oh boy I would disagree. I've had decades of terrible experience with barrel jacks, many of which were completely invisible to the eye. I would not be surprised the small kink would have hidden much worse internal damage or defect. If it failed to negotiate power that's because of an abundance of safety, and I'd rather have that than a fire hazard silently being accepted and internally arcing under load.

> The PSU I had was 90W while the other laptop required 120W.

What would be the non USB PD alternative? Proprietary PSUs, with either one of: non interchangeable because of a different plug, the same plug but the most power hungry computer still refusing to boot from some proprietary charger id protocol or hardware, the same plug but different voltage and either doesn't work of fries the computer's power circuit (I've had all of those back in the day).

So your current USB-C situation isn't any worse than it was before USB PD existed. In fact it's better WRT failure modes because USB-C PD compliance means it will negotiate a safe voltage (including taking the cable into account). Of course if you plug in a non-compliant charger all bets are off but that's no worse than before when there was no power delivery standard whatsoever.

That said, as demonstrated by the MacBook example, a manufacturer doing their PD job would not lock the computer out at the bios level - instead waiting to have a safe charge on the battery -, a kind of locking that also happened back in the day of proprietary plugs among the same manufacturer.

Therefore I do not see any reason to blame that on USB PD "horseshit" instead of that particular manufacturer.

> And if it didn't work I could get another barrel jack from an electronic parts store the same day, chop off the old one and solder the new one on. Good luck doing that with usb-c.

Most consumers can't solder, and I wouldn't even know where to find an electronic parts store. I can buy a (probably bad, but better than nothing in a pinch) USB-C cable at a convenience store on almost every street corner.

I'm more than happy to never have to deal with barrel jacks anymore. The inevitable drawer full of incompatible (at best) or physically compatible, but electrically mismatching barrel jack chargers has plagued too many households.

> I decided to try anyway and the laptop that needs 120W psu wouldn't even boot with the 90w PSU. I thought maybe it would throttle down the components. Nope, a bios message said, unplug it or else.

Seems like Dell does not care a lot about compatibility then. This is entirely allowed by the spec for good reasons: The alternative would be more barrel jacks, and at least I can use a Dell charger for my phone or laptop.

It's definitely not the norm – my laptops charge even from a 5W USB-C charger (albeit very, very slowly).

> So yes, I agree the magnificent claims of usb c resolving all sorts of problems are all horseshit.

I can definitely see how it doesn't solve all the problems all people have had with connectors, but it's solved all sorts of problems at least for me. I really like it.

>Most consumers can't solder, and I wouldn't even know where to find an electronic parts store. I can buy a (probably bad, but better than nothing in a pinch) USB-C

But these PSUs haven't got any receptacle you can plug a replacement USB-c cable. On the brick side the cable goes into the brick. That's it.

Fair point about soldering and general rarity of electronic parts stores. If things remained as repairable as they were let's say 30 years ago you wouldn't need to know how to solder, but you would have an electronics store within a short driving distance where they'd solder the barrel jack on for you.

A common argument is, but everything is miniaturised now, to which I say, so what? Microscopes and bga rework equipment has been available for even hobbyist for quite some time.

Guess what I haven't had to do in 25 years? Replace a failed USB-A socket. Ever.

USB-A connectors are robust enough that you can't really pull them out by the cable. You have to pull the connector, which means you always pull them straight out. USB-C cables are smaller so some people yank the wire part of the cable instead of the connector, leading to a shearing force on the socket, which breaks it over time.

Broken connector ports are pretty much always user error. If you're a bit more careful to pull things out straight the port won't fail for years.

> Broken connector ports are pretty much always user error.

After using GPIB connectors (with huge cables attached to them) for some time, i tend to dissagree.

The shearing force is often done by the cable itself, with gravity doing the work. Some USB-C cables are so thick and connector so large to support the heavy shielded cable, that it's bent at an angle when plugged in.

These are requirements. There is a looong way from requirements to final product.

I think it's a bit ironic that the cable is considered more costly than the receptacle, which is generally true if you consider the device as a whole, but now we have multiple hundreds of dollars thunderbolt cables and the cap on the actual receptacle component is below $10 even for ones with support for higher speeds.

But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles

> now we have multiple hundreds of dollars thunderbolt cables

This is mostly an exaggeration.

Apple has a $160 3m 40Gbps cable but Cable Matters has the same for $70 (and Trebleet has a 2.5m one for $50).

The 25 feet 40gbps cable from Pure Fi is the only I can think of that fits the "multiple hundreds' description at $200 but then again it's an active optical cable (it's not compatible with plain USB).

> the cap on the actual receptacle component is below $10 even for ones with support for higher speeds.

Maybe the actual C connector they started with is below $10 but you are looking at rather expensive redriver chips inside and careful engineering to care for the signal integrity at 40gbps.

It is rather less than 1 usd even on Lcsc where everyone can buy it

It is probably easier to have two cables and replace a broken one in case of failure than replacing your USB connector (or the lifted pads) in case of failure.

A broken cable means the cable will be replaced, a broken connector might mean the device is thrown out.

Now I am a person with the skill and tools to replace such a connector or patch up the PCB in most cases, but Ibstill think I'd rsther replace the cable. Thebexpensive thing isn't the part. It is my time.

Paying multiple hundreds of dollars is a choice, not a necessity. An active 40 Gbps, 240W cable is around $50 these days. I doubt that most repair shops would even give you a repair estimate for less than that.

> But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles

And that's exactly why a reasonable design assumes that buying a new cable will be the preferred option (over having to re-solder components on a device) by most consumers. It certainly is for me.

Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000

The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.

You’re mixing up mini-USB and micro-USB. Also, the board attachment is not strictly speaking part of the connector standard. Manufacturers are free to, and do, screw that up in myriad ways.

No, I'm not. The connector side of micro-USB is usually the failure point. I had mini-USB receptacles fail at an extremely high rate back when I was building and selling mini-USB 2.5 inch external hard drive enclosures back in high school. Micro-USB wasn't even invented until 2007.

Even if you are not mixing them up, your comment is confusing since you are intertwining commentary on both.

Splitting them into separate paragraphs with your assessment and experience on each would help the legibility.

If you’re not mixing them up, then I have no idea how to interpret your grandparent comment:

> The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.

What do the second and third sentences have to do with the first sentence? They read like they’re supposed to provide the (otherwise completely missing) support for your statement that it’s the “wrongest thing you’ve read all day”, but they don’t.

Mini is quite fine I thing you are mixing it up with micro.

How many PDAs do you know with microUSB connectors? MicroUSB wasn't even introduced until 2007.

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