Insane that Go had decades of programming mistakes to learn from but it chose this path.
Anyway, at least Uber is out there putting out solid bandaids. Their equivalent for Java is definitely a must-have for any project.
Insane that Go had decades of programming mistakes to learn from but it chose this path.
Anyway, at least Uber is out there putting out solid bandaids. Their equivalent for Java is definitely a must-have for any project.
Yup, every time I write some Go I feel like it's been made in a vaccum, ignoring decades of programming language. null/nil is a solved problem by languages with sum types like haskell and rust, or with quasi-sums like zig. It always feels like a regression when switching from rust to go.
Kudos to Uber for the tool, it looks amazing!
Go is just obstinately living in the 90s. I guess that's not really a surprise. It's pretty much C but with great tooling.
The problem with Go (for this specific issue, there are lots of problems with Go) is that they have wedded themselves extremely strongly to zero-defaulting, it's absolutely ubiquitous and considered a virtue.
But without null you can't 0-init a pointer, so it's incompatible with null-safety.
I think C# pretty much left the idea of everything having a default behind when they decided to fix nulls. Though obviously the better alternative is to have opt-in defaulting instead.
† Strictly speaking, objects can be partially initialized and partially uninitialized in Rust, but this is harmless as the borrow checker statically ensures that uninitialized fields of objects are never accessed.
True, and because of this, the language can be learned over a weekend or during onboarding, new hires can rapidly digest codebases and be productive for the company, code is straightforward and easy to read, libraries can be quickly forked and adapted to suit project needs, and working in large teams on the same project is a lot easier than in many other languages, the compiler is blazing fast, and it's concurrency model is probably the most convenient I have ever seen.
Or to put this in less words: Go trades "being-modern" for amazing productivity.
> It always feels like a regression when switching from rust to go.
It really does, and that's what I love about Go. Don't get me wrong I like Rust. I like what it tries to do. But I also love the simplicity, and sheer productiveness of Go. If I have to deal with the odd nil-based error here and there, I consider that a small price to pay.
And judging by the absolute success Go has (measured by contributions to Github), many many many many many developers agree with me on this.
Yeah, I truly hate this field
Sure, it could be done. Lots of things could be done to Go. The people who invented it are among the most brilliant computer scientists alive. It's a pretty sure bet that they know about, and in great detail, every single thing people complain Go doesn't have.
So every thing that is "missing" from Go isn't in it for a reason.
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Airman's Odyssey
> You have to use an interface. That’s much more complex than using a sum type would be.
More complex how and by what metric?
But to understand the specification and how it can be used to do a programming, you need to have at least a cursory understanding of turing machines and related theory, which isn't necessary to learn Java or python.
Under your definition, the conceptually simplest language is something like SUBLEQ, (the specification is only a single line!) but in this case, being able to implement the language, and learning the language aren't the same thing. Learning the language generally means, like, useful for given purposes.
Removing footguns (nulls are a footguns, race-able concurrent APIs are a footgun) can make it easier to learn even though this may introduce new features (in this case sum types) to solve the problem.
Had those brilliant computer scientists not been employed at Google, it would have been another Oberon or Limbo.
But it's not a guarantee for success either. Google+ anyone?
The only ones that are actually taking off, have the baking of major corps, even if it is only giving money into the project.
“Optimising your notation to not confuse people in the first 10 minutes of seeing it but to hinder readability ever after is a really bad mistake.” — David MacIver
Go is a simple language that anyone can pick up in a weekend, but productivity plateaus once you’re doing anything that requires hard constraints or complex systems (the same is true for JS, Python, and other scripting languages).
This is a false dichotomy. One does not imply the other.
Go is also not a simple language. It is deceptively difficult with _many_ footguns that could have easily been avoided had it not ignored decades of basic programming language design.
Many things also aren't straightforward or intuitive. For instance, this great list of issues for beginners: http://golang50shad.es/
No it isn't, and yes it does. By definition, the more features I add to something, the more complex it becomes. So yes, Go achieves it's simplicity precisely by leaving out features.
> this great list of issues
I just picked three examples at random:
"Sending to an Unbuffered Channel Returns As Soon As the Target Receiver Is Ready"
"Send and receive operations on a nil channel block forver."
"Many languages have increment and decrement operators. Unlike other languages, Go doesn't support the prefix version of the operations."
All of these are behavior and operators that are documented in the language spec. So how is any of these a "footgun"?
I literally can not imagine a worse behavior than my program blocking forever. Of all of the things my program can do, short of giving remote code execution, blocking is literally the worst one I can think of.
The behavior of nil-channels always blocking is on purpose, and tremendously useful in functions where we receive from multiple channels via `select`. It allows the function to easily manipulate it's own receive behavior simply by setting the local reference to the channel to `nil`.
Since `selects` can also have `default`, the resulting functions don't have to block either.
More complex for whom? Not having generics made the compiler simple, but having to copy and paste and maintain identical implementations of a function (or use interface) adds more complexity for users.
Similarly, adding a better default HTTP client arguably makes Go more complex, but the "simple" approach results in lots of complexity and frustration for users.
> All of these are behavior and operators that are documented in the language spec. So how is any of these a "footgun"?
Perhaps I could have been clearer. I didn't mean that the entire list was of footguns, just that there are lots of confusing and unintuitive things beginners need to learn.
Some actual footguns off the top of my head:
- using Defer in a loop
- having to redeclare variables in a loop
- having to manually close the body of a http response even if you don't need it
Yes, and go opts to include features that unnecessarily increase complexity in this manner, such as nil values.
> All of these are behavior and operators that are documented in the language spec. So how is any of these a "footgun"?
By this logic, no language with a spec can have footguns. C and C++, notorious for their footguns, both specify their behavior in the spec, so do they not have any footguns?
You know what's a footgun? Uncaught exceptions popping up in places far away from where they were created at which point you have very little context to deal with it robustly. Use after frees. FactoryFactoryFactories.
You're right, I meant to link that in reference to how Go can be difficult to learn despite how it simple it seems. Not sure how I a sentence.
The overview of that site explains its purpose/necessity quite well. Some things are footguns, many are just confusing time-wasters. Nevertheless, they are frustrating and hamper the learning process.
But that is the learning process. What else is there to learn in a language if the syntax doesn't count? They're all Turing complete and all of them can do everything. All we need to do is learn the exact magic words.
I don't think it's honest to parade Go as a language that's the paragon of simplicity that's easy to learn when that's simply not true. I also don't think it's honest for people to argue that addressing any of Go's countless warts would somehow make the language more complex or harder to learn.
But Go's real strength is in its readability, not writability. I think it's very much possible to learn Go in a week, then read clean Go code like the standard library and understand exactly what's going on. At least that's my interpretation of what it means for a new grad to be productive in Go in less than a week. Nobody is expecting someone new to write production-grade libraries with intricate concurrency bits in their first week, but they're already productive if they can read and understand it.
As a rule of thumb we spend 10x more time reading code than we do writing it (code reviews, debugging, refactors). So why not optimise for it?
I generally do the second, because doing the first is extremely tiring when reviewing code, but I dislike it immensely.
Uncaught exceptions -> panics, like what this nil catcher is aiming to solve
Places far away -> easy goroutine creation with no origin tracking makes errors appear sometimes very far away from source
Use after free -> close after close
FactoryFactoryFactories -> loads of BuilderFunc.WithSomething
Lots of other pains I could add that are genuinely novel to Go also, but funny that for everything you mentioned my head went “yep, just called X”
This may be ok, as you say, if you allow errors here and there because you are fine dealing with those problems. But at the other end, it may be a user that is affected by the error. Which may be ok as well, but why should it be? We lament the quality of software all the time.
Compare this to other engineering fields: unless you study the knowledge of those who came before you may not even be allowed to practice in the field. I would not want to use a bridge built by someone who learned bridge building in a weekend.
Software is different though, it's rarely a matter of life or death. Given that, maybe it's ok to not have the highest quality in mind, because the benefit of productivity far outweighs the alternative.
I'm torn.
The line has to be drawn somewhere. I think everyone has certain things they'd put on the other side of that line, and strict nils are probably at the top of the list for many, but overall it's good that the Go team is stubborn about not adding new stuff. If they weren't, maybe there would be better nil handling, better error handling, etc. but compiles would also get slower and the potential for over-engineering, which Go now discourages quite effectively, would increase. At a high level, keeping Go a simple, pragmatic language with a fast compiler is more important than any particular language feature.
And how well did that work out for Haskell?
https://gist.github.com/graninas/22ab535d2913311e47a742c70f1...
Just because one person thinks Functional Programming is the right way to do it, doesn't mean another person has to agree. The same goes for every paradigm, and language feature under the sun. Different people want different things, different projects have different needs.
No single language gets everything right, no single paradigm solves every problem, no feature is a "must have" in every language. A functional approach might be great or a productivity killer depending on the use case. A GC may be the best thing in the world or a performance nightmare. OOP may be a really good idea or a path to unmaintainable crap depending on the implementation.
There are no silver bullets.
The only thing that is ABSOLUTELY certain: When people get told "Our way is better, you should use our way", despite the fact that there are no silver bullets, people will resist. And that resistance can lead to languages vanishing into obscurity.
You know this post is speculative fiction, right? It's actually about what could kill Haskell, not what could kill Rust?
Here is the articles title: "What killed Haskell, could kill Rust, too"
So no, it's not about what could kill Haskell. In 2022, ~0.3% of all code pushed to github was Haskell. To put that number into perspective: vimscript was ~0.25%
Yes, it is a speculative fiction, with a good reason, because the analogies are pretty clear.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38360177
So, according to what metric is Haskell "thriving"?
It was designed, specifically, as per Rob Pike, for _bad_ developers. Developers who couldn't be productive at Google because they weren't properly taught at unis [0].
Then it caught momentum and then here we are, discussing a bad language designed for bad developers as if there is nothing better we can do with our lives.
Pike's point is that peak PLT is too lofty to be productive or even useful for folks who are actually technically competent and literate relative to the rest of the industry. No one will get anything done if they're spending all their time teasing an advanced type system into inferring the required program.
A solution might be optionals, which might require sum types, which might require generics (which Go just learned), which most definitely requires a more complex type system, which almost certainly involves longer compiler times.
Is that all worth it? I don't know. The Go team certainly didn't think so.
Languages that I'm aware of that do solve this are Scala, Rust, Kotlin to some extent, Haskell... languages which do not have a reputation of being stable, easy to learn, easy to read and understand, compile quickly, etc.
Kotlin is definitely the odd man out in that list.
Though the reputation for those other languages mainly stem from their embrace of way more advanced concepts rather than null handling via optionals, I think that this specific concept makes it easier to learn/read/understand (though not compile quicker)
Just because person A thinks this is hugely important, doesn't mean person B has to agree, or that B is a bad developer.
Mind showing us the source for that?
Go wasn't made for incompetent developers. I'm fairly certain that people who land a job as devs at Google are pretty competent.
Go was made to facilitate rapid onboarding, easy digestion of large codebases, and working efficiently in large teams where people are guaranteed to have widely different educational backgrounds, experiences and ideas about programming.
That's why the language has to be simple, obvious, and be focused on readability. That's also why Go is strongly opinionated.
I think Go could still work without completely neutering the type system.
Algebraic Data Types and pattern matching are not difficult... python already has them.
You can't make up that other devs' opinions / preferences are identical to yours just because they use the same language, there are other important factors in play (e.g., if your company is using Go, then you'd be more productive in it and be more likely to choose to contribute in it even it Go is less productive as a language)
> code is straightforward and easy to read
I have to disagree. I don't want to read 3 lines out of four that are exactly the same. I don't want to read the boilerplate. I don't want to read yet another abs or array_contains reimplementation. Yes it's technically easy to read, but the actual business logic is buried under so much noise that it really hinders my capacity to digest it.
> the compiler is blazing fast
much agreed, that is my #1 pain point in rust (but it's getting better!)
> and it's concurrency model is probably the most convenient I have ever seen
this so much. this is what I hate the most with go: it pioneered a concurrency model and made it available to the masses, but it has too many footguns imho. this is no surprise other languages picked channels as a first class citizen in their stdlib or core language.
> Go trades "being-modern" for amazing productivity.
I don't think those two are incompatible. If we take the specific point of the article, which is nil pointers, Go would only have to import the sum types concept to have Option and maybe Result as a bonus. Would this translate to a loss of productivity? I don't think so. (oh and sum types hardly are a modern concept)
Also, there may be a false sense of productivity. Go is verbose, and you write a lot. Sure if you spend most of your time typing then yes you are productive. But is it high-value productivity? Some more concise languages leave you more time to think about what you are writing and to write something correct. The feeling of productivity is not there because you are not actively writing code most of the time. IIRC plan9 makes heavy use of the mouse, and people feel less productive compared to a terminal because they are not actively typing. They are not active all the time.
I get what you're saying, and I'm glad you are having such a good experience with it. Disclosure, I am not talking down to any language here...in fact I actually like Rust as a language, even though I don't use it professionally.
I am just saying that Go is incredibly easy to learn, and I don't think there are many people who disagree on this point, proponent of Go or not.
> I have to disagree.
We'll have to agree to disagree then :-) Yes, the code is verbose, but it's not really noise in my opinion. Noise is something like what happens in enterprise Java, where we have superfluous abstractions heaped ontop of one another. Noise doesn't add to the program. The verbose error handling of Go, and the fact that it leaves out a lot of magic from other languages doesn't make it noisy to me.
> I don't think those two are incompatible.
Neither do I, but that's the path Go has chosen. It may also have been poorly worded on my part. A better way of putting it: Go doesn't subscribe to the "add as much as possible" - mode of language development.
> But is it high-value productivity?
Writing the verbose parts of go, like error checking, isn't time consuming, because it's very simple...in fact, these days I leave a lot of that to the LLM integration of my editor :-)
Is is high value? Yes, I think so, because I don't measure productivity by number of lines of code, I measure it by features shipped, and issues solves. And that's where Go's ... how do I say this ... obviousness really puts the language into the spotlight for me.
This is my sense. "False sense of productivity" is an accurate statement - I've also found that it seems to be for a very specific (and not necessarily useful) definition of "productive", such as LOC per day.
It's not as bad as dynamic languages like Python, but very frequently Go codebases feel brittle, like any change I make might bring down the whole house of cards at runtime.
Isn't it basically just what Cilk did, but with fewer feaures?
Go, for whatever reasons, has gotten people using it.
Same. Started a company, onboarded just about everyone to Rust. It went very well.
At my employer we have a pattern of promoting people who have done things like write a proprietary application gateway. The dev got a couple promotions and moved on to another company and we got stuck maintaining a proprietary application gateway with a terribly messy configuration and poor observability.
None of the Google fresh hires I know personally are stupid. They are talented people who could be just as productive in a C++ or Java codebase. Maybe even better when you have features like Java's streams or C++ templates to throw at non-trivial problems. They might need more time, but it's something easily budgeted for. If new hires have to be productive from the first day, that's a problem the company has created and not the employee. If other languages have too many ways to do something, just enforce only using a few of them, teams have and continue to do that.
I use Golang in my current job. The library ecosystem seems fine. But even as a "new hire", the language frustrates me sometimes. Go's concurrency is "easy", but has a minefield of problems. Just off the top of my head, for-loop semantics [which to Golang's credit, is being fixed but it is absolutely a breaking change], just being able to copy a mutex by accident. These are bugs I've written and not had fun tracking down. In a year I'll have all these footguns memorized, but I could also have spent a year getting better at any other language. Even at my experience level, the Rust compiler gives me enough grief for me to know that when it's happy, whatever I've written will work. Nothing about Golang gives me that confidence.
And this is exactly what Go avoids, in my opinion and experience.
Unless someone shoehorns Go into an Enterprise Java style (which, sadly, is possible, and sometimes done), the problems you listed with the Java codebase either don't exist in Go, or are orders of magnitude less painful to deal with, even in large Go codebases. Plus, the toolchain is pretty obvious, because most of it ships with the language.
And while my argument mentions new hires specifically, because the impact is most visible with them, this is just as important for mid and senior level developers; yes Go is sometimes more verbose (although enterprise Java and lots of C++ code still runs circles around Go in that regard) than it's contemporaries, it is also obvious. There is little magic, there is little action at a distance, and the opinionated style of the language discourages superfluos abstractions.
I have used quite a few languages so far in my career. Go is the first where I was able to comfortably read and understand std library code within the first week of learning the language.
> Just off the top of my head, for-loop semantics [which to Golang's credit, is being fixed but it is absolutely a breaking change],
It is technically a breaking change. Practically, it isn't, because there simply are no examples of production code in the wild that rely on this unintuitive behavior (As mentioned multiple times in the discussion on Go's issue tracker, the dev team did their research on that), and code that implements the (very easy) fix, will continue to work after the upcoming change.
> Nothing about Golang gives me that confidence.
My experience is different. I know that most of the problems the Rust compiler complains about will be handled by the fact that Go is GC'ed, and most of the rest I avoid by relying on CSP as my concurrency model (Can't accidentially copy a mutex if there's no mutex ;-) )
For java projects I think NullAway has gotten so good that it really takes the steam out of the Kotlin proponents. Hopefully NilAway will get there too.
All of those could be checked or irrelevant, I have no idea.
Looking through the first few pages, most of these panics are easy to audit, and are infallible or in contexts where it doesn't matter (internal tooling, etc). That's a pretty stark difference to every single reference being a potential landmine.
Like, one of the first files has only .unwraps in the comments (like a dozen of them in a file), some are infallible uses, some are irrelevant-to-runtime tooling, etc.
But anyway, "some" is a lot smaller than "all". Just like some of memory safety issues would also have happened since you can still use unsafe in Rust, yet it's still a big step forward in reducing those issues in the ugly real world
If you think about it a bit, given that bugs are relatively rare in a mature project, it's going to be difficult to find a use of unwrap that's definitely bad.
So let me charitably ask directly: have you looked through all the examples at least on the first couple of pages? And if you have, what % of instances is relevant to your point?
It would be similarly difficult to trawl through the source of the Go compiler and find definitely bad instances of pointer dereferencing. So does that mean that it’s not actually a problem in Go either?
Getting good type errors without requiring type annotations seems like a win over languages that are annotation-heavy. Normally I’d be skeptical about relying on type inference too much over explicit type declarations, but maybe it’s okay for this problem?
This is speculative, but I could see this becoming another win for the Go approach of putting off problems that aren’t urgent. Sort of like having third-party module systems for so many years, and then a really good one. Or like generics.