Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

54 pointscpeth49 comments

I've been looking for work the past few months. I've never been great at the people-networking side of the software engineering business but know enough people to get some good referrals from Staff Engineer / Director level former coworkers. Despite meeting all the requirements, and being referred by a current employee...I'm just getting simple rejection emails. Previously I thought of referrals as a great signal that someone was good candidate and was worth at least a phone call. Is that no longer the case?

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There's two kinds of referrals...the official ones with a program that goes through HR, then the unofficial where someone you know knows a hiring leader with an open spot. The latter is infinitely better.

This. Referrals don't mean much at a company with a heavy, rigid bureaucracy. You still have to go through the machine.

But usually in my experience they do mean you actually get to go through the machine and aren't just auto rejected without even getting to talk to a human.

Anecdotally, providing references for one organization seems to open doors for others.

No, you shouldn't generalize from a few examples. A good referral will get your CV in front of the hiring manager, skipping the screening and HR process. If you just get permission to put someone's name on the application that may not count for much. You should ask your contacts to get you on the short list so you bypass at least some of the hiring funnel.

Right now the job market for more junior people looks brutal -- too many people with little experience and the same "skills" mix chasing a reduced number of jobs. If you are still early in your career you will find job hunting tough right now regardless of contacts and referrals.

I think it might be brutal for more than junior people now. I thought I would be fine when my previous employer decided to offshore all of engineering and I was laid off as a result. I have been at an architect/lead/principal level for the last 7 years doing backend work with mostly state-of-the-art tech on AWS. 15 years experience total, and just getting no traction despite referrals. None of my jobs were at hyperscale FAANG types, or super sexy stuff. I'm not a thought leader with an influential blog nor have I built an open source library with 5k stars. Maybe that is what it takes to get a call back now? I'm a regular hacker who loves technology and never dreamed I would be struggling this badly.

I have 15 years of experience working on boring tech stacks, no social media presence at all, and I’m doing okay.

I’d suggest hitting up some tech recruiters and downgrading your past job titles. As far as your job search is concerned, you weren’t a “lead architect” using “state-of-the-art tech”, you were a Staff DevOps Engineer with experience in <insert AWS buzzwords here>. Etc etc.

Mindset. Be humble and open to learning, don’t be desperate. Explain that this is what you love to do. That you genuinely care about the product/mission/service and you’ll land something. If you go in “I need a paycheck, I can code”, that’s not very compelling. I can teach someone to code. What I can’t teach is for someone to be hungry to learn.

So be positive, be humble, be sharp, and be willing.

Also, numbers game. 200 applications -> 63 interviews -> 12 callbacks -> 4 complete interview process -> 2 offers.

They are not worthless at all, at my company if you get a referral you will skip the phone interview and go right to in-person, and you're going to get called about it.

When we are hiring.

There is the rub, there are a number of companies that are either actively laying off, or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.

> or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.

When you say it like that it sounds mean, but it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.

>it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.

It is. Some companies will also offer the old timers early retirement packages. There are companies like this out there still, they just don't make headlines by being civil.

I didn’t mean it to sound mean. I much prefer that to layoffs.

A few years ago I did one or two phone interviews with a FAANG company, passed with flying colours, and was told by a manager I'd be flown in for the final on-site interview. The manager told me to send my resume to HR so they could make it official..

...and I got rejected by HR, because I didn't have 8 years of working experience at 23.

Still the funniest job hunting story I have.

I referred maybe thirty people to Stripe and I think maybe two of them got interviews. Nobody got an offer. At Uber, zero of my referrals were followed up on. At Box, I don't remember any referrals getting followed up on.

I won't say they're worthless, but don't feel bad that you are getting the response that you are. Nearly every place I've been (and lots of places that friends are at) do an abysmal job of following up on referrals and taking them seriously.

That said, you might want to ask a trusted friend to look at your online presence (LinkedIn, GitHub) and offer some critical feedback. It may simply be the case that—despite being well qualified—you don't look that way to recruiters following up on what amounts to a ticket in a queue.

It matters why you're making the referral. I've seen far too many referrals made just because a stranger or a social acquittance pinged an employee on LinkedIn. And the employee's thinking is "why not". After all, they're helping a person in need and there might be a referral bonus for them down the line.

I'm a recruiting coordinator or a hiring manager, there's nothing that signals to me that this is a good lead. I assume you're just doing this as a courtesy. I might take a cursory glance, but if the resume doesn't look particularly exciting, onto the pile it goes.

The "how" part matters too. If you're referring a person who you know is amazing at their job, say so, and be specific. "I spent five years working with them at Foobar Industries and they are easily in the top 1% of all engineers at that company" is likely to get attention. "I know this person and I think they may be a fit" isn't.

Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?

My take on that, with some background...

When one FAANG was very young, I knew a non-computers researcher who'd heard of the company and wanted to work there. But I figured that the company was still at the stage that they thought they only needed computer people and a few business people. (So I'd expect the non-computer researcher's resume, submitted cold, to be shredded by HR after a 1-second glance.)

So I asked a kindly and famously well-connected professor whether they had a contact there. Something like, so the researcher could explain what value they could bring that the company might not yet realize it needed.

Turns out, the professor had a strong connection to one of the top Poobahs at the company, and arranged an introduction for the researcher.

But later, when I wanted to work at that same company myself, and the company asked for a list of people I knew at the company, there were some, but I didn't feel comfortable doing that. Those contacts didn't have that much familiarity with my work, it felt more like an old-boys network or nepotism rather than a justifiable use of connections, and my software engineering resume should've been strong enough to get it in front of someone who could guess that I'd bring useful things.

Going back to the people who cold-contact strangers on LinkedIn for a referral: I'm not sure that's positive signal. It shows some effort, but it could also be seen as trying to game the system, or to abuse an employee's potential conflict of interest when referral bonuses are involved. Surely there are more unambiguously positive signals to be found in that stack of 200 resumes?

It’s a lot more work to find the signal in a stack of 200 resumes. Gaming the system is a good signal itself. The system has to be overcome to get things done.

I guess it depends what you're looking for. Our field is full of people gaming the system. I'd rather work with people who do the right thing, including creatively.

Remember the Captain America flagpole scene?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGAWgItUboE&t=1m55s

Do you really want to give superpowers to someone who does a "clever" thing, not concerned with collateral damage, and then casually walks away from the problem they created?

Interviewing takes time and effort, so it's best to focus your energy on promising leads. A strong endorsement from a person who worked with a candidate is a very promising signal. Without getting into the possible whys, "this stranger contacted me on LinkedIn instead of applying via the normal channels" usually isn't.

Of course, depends on how your pipeline looks like. But most tech job reqs get a lot of applications and passive leads.

The strength of a referral, the proximity and seniority of the referrer and role fit all come into play.

A strong referral by a knowledgeable person often skips that person to the front of interview queue. I have hired a number of people based on referrals from team members, VCs and previous coworkers.

Many referral systems have a how good do you think this personal really is field and often an option for "I don't know this person that well I am just referring them to say I did".

If you are asking for a referral, make it as easy as possible for the referer to make you look great. They probably don't remember all your awesome work like you do, so make sure you give them simple impactful points.

Someone referring you (with a positive hire recommendation) from inside the company is always a good thing. Someone referring you for the referral 'bonus' is not worth as much because what makes the first one good is that the person referring can explain why you would be a good fit.

That said, reputations are a thing too. All through my career I've had a mix of people who thought I was great to people who thought I was terrible. It is often a function of how and when you interacted with them, at one place I worked I discovered that a person I had worked with before was had been actively "anti-recruiting" in that they didn't want me to come work there[1]. I was fortunate in that the hiring manager took the time to get a number of opinions and look past the drama and into what really was going on, but it certainly delayed things significantly and would have resulted in a decline had they not been willing to do that digging. This only gets worse the more senior you become because you have more opportunities to be perceived as having limited someone else's career/choices/etc.

So 'referrals' in all forms are a net positive, some can be more positive than others.

That said, one of the more interesting hires I did was a guy who offered to come work for me for free for two weeks on the promise that at the end of the two weeks we'd either hire him or not. Was a bit challenging to get that through HR/Legal (but we did) and he turned out to be great. But it wasn't obvious from his CV that he was as capable as he was and he did not have anyone locally that could be a reference.

[1] I did reconcile what had happened with this person but they were completely accurate when they described me as an "asshole". I really was annoying early in my career, but that didn't become clear to me until later.

Absolutely not, job referrals are extremely valuable and probably the best way you can fasttrack or boost your interview chances. They aren't a guaranteed job offer, but they're far from worthless.

This is so funny to read, as it just happened to me and I never have used referrals before. I literally had a glowing referral from my previous coworker who I worked with at a startup that later sold for $400 million because of work that I did directly and who is friends with a senior VP at the company I’m interviewing at but I also still had to interview with 4 other team members and do a take home test. I think the field has reached peak stupidity.

A referral means at a minimum your resume will actually get read. In most cases that’s all it means (i.e. guarantees it won’t get rejected by the ATS).

If the referrer walks it over to the hiring manager’s desk it means a lot more, but most of the time these days it just gets fed into the HR pipeline.

You might want to revisit your resume. Of course I haven’t seen it, this is free advice from some rando, and other disclaimers.

In my company a strong referral certainly carries a lot of weight. There is however a big difference between a casual referral (as in, I barely know this guy but he reached out to me) vs a strong referral (as in, I've worked with him and will vouch for him and I would like him on the team).

Depends 100% on the company you're referring into. The larger the company, the less personal it tends to be. Conversely, if the "current employee" is a leader with hiring authority and the referral will be hired onto their team, the more personal it tends to be.

If people just go for the best people in the world then one man will marry all the women in the world

In practice it doesn’t work that way because I don’t believe in polygamy.

Magical and aspirational thinking is a defective organizational practice.

I just started a new job 3 weeks ago via a referral. I messaged a former coworker through LinkedIn, hopped on a call with the hiring manager a week later and was hired.

The actual process was something like this

1. LinkedIn message to former coworker and short conversation about what role I was looking for.

2. Meeting with hiring manager and a peer of his who I had also worked with (different than the guy I initially reached out to)

3. Long wait while hiring manager got the job description officially approved and posted.

4. Fill out application via referral program webpage so the guy I contacted first got the referral bonus

5. HR screen/interview and salary negotiation.

6. Job offer

7. Start new job

There were 4 former coworkers on the team I was hired into and we had all been part of an amazing team at a past company so take that as you will.

A referral is the only reason I have a job.

Spent a years getting rejected for roles that seemed a perfect fit at all stages of the hiring pipeline. These were from mostly cold apps and recruiter for jobs doing work aligning very closely with my past work, including trying to go back to a company that I had no issues getting into some years ago.

Ended up getting a referral at one place, hadn’t touched the tech they were using in years, or sometimes at all, had an awkward interview. I was just waiting for the rejection email, but what I got was a call extending an offer.

This probably won't sound satisfying but I can give you an honest answer from my own experience since I am seeing a shift in the hiring/interviewing/recruiting process myself.

I think the market is a bit wonky at the moment. You have an exodus of talented folks from many tech companies, people competing internationally for remote positions, people using AI on the recruiting side, hiring end, and as applicants who tailor resumes and bot job postings.

Weird times.

Eventually the water is gonna separate from the oil, Stay the course, invest in yourself and keep at it.

The resume tailoring thing will make CVs essentially worthless very soon. Question is what can replace it

good problem to tackle and I'm sure companies are willing to pay for something remotely close to "good enough".

The only referrals that ever worked for me were those where the referee and I would have drinks or lunches once every couple of months and he likewise with the person to whom I was referred.

I have enough experience but not senior level yet and no impressive companies on my resume. My experience so far while being laid off has been not so promising so far with referrals:

No response from Intuit

Rejection from Atlassian

The previous job I had at a decent organization was without a referral. The one before that too, which was a mid size consultancy firm was without a referral.

"I'm just getting simple rejection emails."

Luxury.

That was my experience 10 years ago when I last looked. Had referrals to specific jobs and also "general availability" from several senior, respected people in my field. Got one interview which went well and then went silent. Rest got either no response or the snotty "Have him apply on the website."

Referrals are valuable when the referrer has worked with you in the past and can vouch for your abilities, experience, work ethic, creativity, etc. with specific details. Generic referrals that provide no information other than “the applicant knows someone who works at the company” are worthless to a hiring manager.

A good job referral is like “Rick just quit Monday. Go talk to Greg. Tell him I sent you” in a Tuesday morning phone call.

Good luck.

I just got a job based on a referral from a friend that works there.

1. Small company 2. He's senior and has a strong rep

I think it depends. My mum placed an ad in the newspaper looking for a job as a secretary and got more than 100 offers. She did not have any referrals since she was fresh out of secretary school with no prior experience. Times change.

Not at all, got my current job that I love via a referral from a friend from my previous job who moved to this company. They were inundated with applicants and the referral absolutely helped me stand out and ultimately get an offer.

I'm not sure I've landed a job or client in the last 10 years that wasn't through a referral.

Who knows? The job market is really crazy at times. I got contacted by an ex-company asking if I'd consider coming back, and then they never really even followed up after I showed potential interest, and they eventually said "they don't see a fit" when I followed up. Like, huh? They contacted me.

In my view, the best a referral can do for you is to get eyes on your application and potentially bump it up in the stack. Unless you really know the specific hiring manager well, that seems like the best that's going to happen.

Actual referrals for specific needs are useful. Letters of recommendation are variably useful, but not warm intros.

Social media-based "networking" in the industry has limited utility. I was 1-2nd degree on LI from most of Silicon Valley but with 100's of people I never talk to.

You're barking up the wrong trees combining outbound effort that has much less value, especially if it's untargeted or unfocused. In general, it's better to market yourself and let the hiring managers and headhunters find you. Although, it's entirely possible to replace the role of the headhunters if you market and convey useful business value you present to prospective employers: a cover letter exists to sell a resume to sell a phone call and so on.

If you're trying to network for work, I would check out hot and interesting tech meetups.

Remember, it's sales and dating, and therefore, a numbers and interest game.

it is indeed getting really saturated

Yes

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