Hacker News Reader

Comment by upupupandaway | Hacker News Reader

I swear that every time I read an article by somebody who claims they've been diagnosed with ADHD, it is the same formula: "when I was a child...", "I didn't know what it was", ..., "I was finally diagnosed with ADHD", then finally "I have super powers no one else has so I will use them to my advantage".

I would love to see an ADHD version of the horoscope/personality tests administered by Stagner and Forer. I predict the effect would be the same. This study seems to be on this track: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07067437221082...

View on HN

I have been personally diagnosed with ADHD and have benefited from medication but it doesn't come without its costs. My wife was diagnosed when she was very young and we've had a lot of time to run self experiments and discuss ideas.

I don't think people want to hear this but I believe so many people think they have ADHD because of a lack of discipline. Even people with ADHD will understand what I'm talking about. Some days you can take your medication and still get nothing done with endless distractions.

We live in a world full of distractions and our attention spans are being whittled down with every new dopamine slot machine on our phones. What's rare today is someone stopping themselves from reaching for the digital crack and embracing the less stimulating but more rewarding long term goal slog. Treating every focus problem you have as a medical issue or a fleeting lack of motivation gives you an easier out. What you really need to accept is that sometimes you just avoid discomfort and the only thing missing is forcing yourself to get shit done and being content with it.

The good thing is that while getting started sucks, if you're consistent with it you can train your mind to seek out and crave long term goal progress and completion in the same way you can train your body.

Just don't forget to be in the present.

> if you're consistent with it you can train your mind to seek out and crave long term goal progress and completion in the same way you can train your body.

How? I mean, one of my major symptoms is that I can't for life do either! "Training my body" doesn't feel like something natural or within range of possibility.

Yeah, I found it close to the annoying "you could try not to have issues... harder". I'm glad some people find they can actually change their behaviours. But it's more of a "if you /CAN BE/ consistent with it" issue for others.

"Life is suffering". Better to accept it. There is joy in life but what you are present for even without training your mind is suffering. It's way easier to recognize and remember than joy.

What do you mean by "natural or within range of possibility"?

One is consistent by doing, not by feeling (of course feelings have their own place in life). I don't enjoy going to the gym per se. I let go of that and go. I don't go because I feel happy and motivated before exercise. First, I went because people for thousands of years have saying so, and biologically it makes sense. Then, because I know how I feel in the short and long term after the exercise.

I do different sports for enjoyment and different for keeping in shape of course. I love hiking but going to a gym is more sustainable as a regular way of keeping in shape in all seasons and weather.

If you force yourself to do something that sucks for long enough, you start to at-minimum get used to it, and at-best you start to need it.

Yep, I know a lot of people who have the most horrible lifestyles who claim to have ADHD. I had previously been entirely useless in my life and claimed to be depressed. As soon as I made an effort to be happy and implement healthy coping mechanisms I quickly became a much more functional human being. I have found myself recently wondering if I have ADHD a lot. I'm starting to realise this may be the same thing and I do need to have some self discipline. I am pre-disposed to being disorganised, terrible at dealing with time and very contrary in the face of things I don't want to do. However, I'm pretty sure these are things I can sorta improve on and are not so tied to my brain chemistry that I must yield to them. Recently I had a gf who was hypersensitive to all noise, practically unable to sleep, extremely hyperactive, addictive tendencies, impulsive to a ridiculous level, terrible relationship to food, always talking too much or too little to hold a conversation as expected, worse concept of time than me, constantly living in an extreme level of chaos. She was recently diagnosed ADHD and nothing has ever been less surprising to me in my life. That gave me a good insight about what is the difference between me being pretty disorganised and always feeling like it's hard to start doing things, and what being ADHD looks like. Mainly, I do not have all these other neurodivergent tendencies like hypersensitivity. So hopefully I will be able to continue working towards functioning as a normal adult although I do find it sorta challenging. I am investigating physical medical reasons for my difficulty focusing and still looking to see if I can get assessed though, just to rule anything out. But I think I can do a lot more with my behaviour than I think.

> As soon as I made an effort to be happy and implement healthy coping mechanisms

What are some of the "healthy coping mechanisms"? Other than "diet and exercise" panacea nonsense?

Diet and exercise! I mean it helps but the commenter probably means stopping with social media and passive distractions.

Erm a lot of things. Diet and exercise are literally key. Diet less so, I can be depressed with a great diet. But with adequate sun exposure and exercise it's pretty hard to be super depressed unless you have a serious chemical imbalance. (edit: I also think having goals in your exercise that you actually care about somewhat helps).

I go outside and stare at the sun every morning for like 5 mins (this is so key I can't even overstate it). I take a cold shower after that (proven to increase your baseline dopamine). I exercise almost every day. I try to never spend a whole day in my house unless I'm sick, preferably spending the majority of the day outside my house. I try to get 8 hours of sleep at least 5 out of 7 days a week, by which I mean 9 hours in bed with the lights off. Being in bed 8 hours isn't sufficient. All this makes me feel awake and sorta alive.

I keep a journal where I set myself goals for the day and I reflect on my performance and my state of mind at the end of the day. Sorta a bullet journal deal with a bit more feels but in a practical way. It's for monitoring and encouraging iterative improvement and for analysing and mitigating negative thought patterns. This allows me to keep myself accountable but also just cope when I'm literally crying in the evening for no reason. It's like my emotional support book.

I was having trouble with caring about anything I usually would. I just started trying to act like I cared. Like acting curious, being highly engaged. And it sort of leads to you naturally being more interested after a while.

I try to create social interaction for myself every week even if no-one invites me to do anything.

I have Freedom app on my phone blocking most stuff for the first 5 hours and last 1 hour of the day. I also don't listen to music or podcasts in the morning. This leaves my brain feeling less sluggish and helpless.

I sign up for really random stuff sometimes just to make my life interesting.

Lastly, I do a lot of deep breathing when I'm trying to get things done because I tend to get anxiety about literally any task.

Edit: I don't know why I need so much going on to make myself function like a normal person. But it works a lot better than not doing this because otherwise I literally curl up into a ball, give up on life and get fired from jobs.

For a while there I thought I had ADHD, and started looking for avenues to get diagnosed. But when I talked more with some friends who have serious cases of it, I started to doubt. Instead of going for the medication, I removed distracting apps from my phone and logged out of socials. It took a few weeks to settle into the routine, but now my focus/attention problems are all but gone. Go figure!

I have diagnosed ADHD and I do not have social media (besides HN), distracting apps or anything. I just have stock GrapheneOS on my phone, no extra distractions. This helps tremendously but doesn't really affect the core issues of adhd, which are a lack of focus when that is needed. Note that it's not a general lack of focus and not a lack of discipline. People with ADHD often fall into depression because they cannot focus well enough even with the right discipline and motivation.

Exactly. I came to the conclusion that for me it was an environment/discipline issue because (among other things) my severe-ADHD friends would try the same tactics with 0 effect. If I can manage attention issues with lifestyle changes alone, it’s probably not a brain chemistry problem.

I do think it’s a testament though to how brain-rotting the always-on socials/apps/notifications can be. They messed me up so bad I literally thought I had a medical condition! Yikes.

I found an article written... a while ago now which describes the issue already, having the internet under your fingers and endless short form distractions: https://randsinrepose.com/archives/nadd/.

> My mother first helped diagnose me with NADD. It was the late 1980s and she was bringing me dinner in my bedroom (nerd). I was merrily typing away to my friends in some primitive chat room on my IBM XT (super nerd), listening to music (probably Flock of Seagulls—nerd++), and watching Back to the Future with the sound off (nerrrrrrrrrrd). She commented, “How can you focus on anything with all this stuff going on?” I responded, “Mom, I can’t focus without all this noise.”

I'm confused btw; the date on the page mentions it was written in 2003, but the article mentions Slack which didn't exist until 2013, unless the article's been kept updated over the years.

edit: It has been, that's a cute time box; the 2004 archived version https://web.archive.org/web/20140214120052/http://randsinrep... has the following:

> Me, I’ve got a terminal session open to a chat room, I’m listening to music, I’ve got Safari open with three tabs open where I’m watching Blogshares, tinkering with a web site, and looking at weekend movie returns. Not done yet. I’ve got iChat open, ESPN.COM is downloading sports new trailers in the background, and I’ve got two notepads open where I’m capturing random thoughts for later integration into various to do lists. Oh yeah, I’m writing this column, as well.

the current version:

> Me, I’ve got Slack opened and logged into four different teams, I’m listening to music in Spotify, I’ve got Chrome open with three tabs where I’m watching stocks on E*TRADE, I’m tinkering with WordPress, and I’m looking at weekend movie returns. Not done yet. I’ve got iMessage open, Tweetbot is merrily streaming the latest fortune cookies from friends, and I’ve got two Sublime windows open where I’m capturing random thoughts for later integration into various to-do lists. Oh yeah, I’m rewriting this article as well.

Not really. ADHD is well documented in brain scans that show a lack of activation and structural differences. You can actually see the difference between the brain of a person with ADHD and a control. It's not just 'having weak discipline' and 'not trying hard enough.' It would be like looking at someone with no arms and saying 'I believe that this person can pick up a ball but they just lack the discipline.' Nope, the structural basis to make that happen is absent. That's ADHD.

I dislike this post because medication is only a (meaningfully large part) of managing adhd. It’s not a magic pill that solves it and if the patient doesn’t have a holistic approach that includes mindfulness, exercise, diet, managing other mental health issues, and structure - then they’re still likely to fail.

I’d encourage you to read more about adhd because a huge symptom of it is lack of long term perspective in decision making. It’s like one of the defining characteristics. Trying to dismiss that as someone being lazy or undisciplined is a damaging stereotype to spread. It’s the equivalent of telling someone with depression to snap out of it or get some sunshine

I think you missed my point. I'm mostly talking about the litany of people on social media that believe they have ADHD without brain scans or any formal diagnosis.

Almost everyone suffers from some lack of discipline and some mistake it for being neurodivergent. People with ADHD can also lack it. Your point of taking a holistic approach is correct and I wasn't trying to single out medication. People with ADHD don't get a free pass on building discipline. In fact, to your point they require more of it to overcome their struggles. Medication, mindfulness, exercise, diet, and structure all take a lot of effort and consistency. It requires you to be more disciplined.

I'm not sure I like the word disciplined but I'm being pedantic. It takes tremendous effort, finding the right resources, and setting up structure to be successful. Which maybe is discipline? Idk

> I believe so many people think they have ADHD because of a lack of discipline

A fundamental characteristic of my ADHD is lack of discipline. I cannot force myself to do something if ADHD is getting in the way. On the rare occasions it's not, and I have initiative (a truly precious resource), it doesn't matter how much or little I enjoy the task, or how uncomfortable the task is, it's getting done.

As I'm sure you know, ADHD diagnosis, like many other diagnoses, needs two things: 1. Have at least N of M symptoms on a list. 2. Have those things have a material negative impact on your life.

> the only thing missing is forcing yourself to get shit done

...yes? Obviously?

As far as I understand it, that's the whole point. People who don't have ADHD just don't struggle with that to the point that it shapes their life, it's just an occasional annoyance that doesn't require any special effort to deal with.

> I believe so many people think they have ADHD because of a lack of discipline

People don't want to hear this because it's incredibly biggoted.

I got diagnosed with ADHD a couple years ago, and it has remained a shit show since then. It was a shit show before, but now medical appointments and crazy restricted medicines have been added to the mix (I ran out of an addictive antidepressant this weekend, not fun). It feels like everybody agrees I'm sick but nobody has an effective treatment for me. I went to see all the doctors who accepted to see me (it's not that many, the appointment system is made to fend of patients, not help you see a doctor), nobody had any magical insight. I lost the best job of my life because of my inability to stay on track.

These system is a civil rights disaster that needs to be torn down. If you can keep fighting it, continue.

I'm never going to get effective treatment, essentially due to doctors that wanted to bring a shitty attitude to the workplace.

In other words, I've literally never even been given the first line treatment.

I don't find this hyperfocus to be unique and became quite resentful when diagnosed later in life by a therapist + psychiatrist. In my case, I was confused as to why I was always underperforming and needed to work extra hours to catch up with my peers, for example. It is not lazyness, when alone I’m a dialed down version of Martin Lorentzon (reference here from the Spotify docuseries)

As a child, I had nicknames related to "crazy." Today, the one thing I take pride in related to ADHD is my ability to think outside the box.

I personally don't believe in any "superpowers". Its just adversity you face, nothing good about it. I'd rather not have it obviously. But maybe my experience is different became I later also got diagnose with having Aspergers.

I read a book once decades ago about ADHD, and it said lots of children are misdiagnosed with it. One of the very common causes is that kids who don't eat regularly (or eat sugar then crash) will encounter low blood sugar. The body reacts to this by dumping adrenaline in the bloodstream and ... voila ... an excitable kid with little focus.

Between decades ago and now we've recognized that sugar only causes excitableness in children who are prompted (Clever Hans style) by adults who expect such an outcome.

The wisdom you're referencing is circa the 70's, it's been attempted many times since and has never replicated.

The comment you're replying to doesn't seem to mention the debunked "sugar rush". The "crash" on the other hand seems to be more replicable.

Also your framing ignores that the "prompting" can be circumstantial rather than targeted. The "rush" is frequently misattributed to sugar when it can actually be better explained by the food itself being a rare treat (and thus exciting) or the situation in which it is provided being special (e.g. a party). Or it can simply be the joy of eating something very tasty.

It's less Clever Hans and more "kids are more prone to sudden outbursts of strong emotions and adults blame it on food".

sigh, the book wasn't blaming sugar.

It's both under- and over-diagnosed because the funnel for children is teachers who have basically been trained to refer the "problem children" for diagnosis.

I have a son who has extreme anxiety, and kept getting referred by teachers for ADHD. Hyper-vigilance for danger can make it hard to focus on arithmetic, particularly in an elementary school classroom. The psychiatrist ended up putting a note in his file because this was happening.

Meanwhile, I also have a daughter who is so obviously ADHD: she forgets to turn in her homework; there were 6 of her jackets in the lost and found in October; she will go to school without her eyeglasses; &c. But, she doesn't disrupt the classroom and is otherwise seen as a "good kid" so she was never referred by a teacher.

I used to be your daughter! Super quiet, got all my work done on time, was seen as "gifted", but would lose absolutely everything (and I mean everything).

I really suggest some sort of setup to maintain structure as she gets older - being aware of a diagnosis or having medication / therapy would've really saved a couple painful years in university for me

Reply on news.ycombinator.com