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Comment by seanp2k2 | Hacker News Reader

Sad that our pixel density hasn't gone up since the 90s, really. Tv ruins people with 42" screens at only 1080p. I'm glad to see that Apple is showing people that pixel density matters more than resolution alone, and I await their high-density MacBook displays. Hopefully they'll be out this fall, but a quick survey of the 4K-rezo landscape suggests that they'll likely have to wait another year for prices to drop :/

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TV ruins people with 42" screens at only 1080p.

Actually, that pixel density is typically too high because they sit so far back. From http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/08/high-definiti...

"A survey made some years ago by Bernard Lechner, a television engineer at the former RCA Laboratories, near Princeton, New Jersey, showed that the median eye-to-screen distance in American homes was nine feet. At that distance, a 1080p HDTV set (with a screen 1,920 pixels wide and 1,080 pixels high) needs to be at least 69-inch across a diagonal if viewers are to see all the detail it offers."

When I play games on my XBox, I need to pull up a chair so I can sit about 5-6 feet from my TV. My couch is about 10' from the TV, and I simply can't make out the detail as well from that distance.

Thanks for this; I was going to bring it up if no one else did. Yes, the average human eye is sharp—acuity of just under a hundredth of a degree—but not sharp enough to need that resolution at such distance.

Not to mention that everything people watch on these TVs is compressed to into a mottled pastiche of crap. You're not even getting 720P's worth of resolution on your "1080P" set while watching your 5-mbps "HD".

Exactly, and 98% of people don't care or even notice the difference. It takes experience working with video to know what is actually higher quality and what is overcompressed, bitrate-starved crap.

I don't care so much about pixel density; it's the ratio that bothers me.

16:9 is ridiculous for anything except watching HD television. (It also now works well for gaming, but only because developers decided to cater to widescreen.)

16:10 is the widest that makes sense for any day-to-day computing tasks, yet it's getting harder and harder to find; forget reasonable 4:3 types.

Usage adapts to what's available.

I have two 1650x1050 displays side-by-side (so, twice as a wide as "ridiculous"), and I run three 80-char width terminals or two web browsers side by side per display, using xmonad. I like it.

A world of users seem to disagree with you. Maybe it isn't quite as ridiculous as you hold it to be.

The users don't have a choice for the most part and it's a small enough difference that most don't know about it. That doesn't mean it doesn't negatively impact people. If you want a non-16:9 laptop you have to buy Apple.

When my WUXGA-screen Dell Lattitude failed I went looking for a replacement. But Dell decided to stop offering ~15" WUXGA screen laptops; it was all "wide screen" (aka "short screen") now, which meant the loss of a row of 200 pixels.

I ended up getting a Thinkpad W500 from a Lenovo outlet.

I should probably start looking for replacement parts now because when this one goes bad I'll again have to fight against whatever the media-consuming, non-developer market is being sold.

The users don't have a choice for the most part

The migration of the monitor industry to 16:9 wasn't one sided. Given the option between 4:3 and 16:9, users overwhelmingly chose 16:9. Eventually the demand was so unbalanced that 4:3 became less common.

Really the notion that manufacturers, except for brave Apple, unilaterally decided to force this on users is completely asinine.

The GP claimed that it was "ridiculous". What horse shit.

I wonder how much of that is due to the fact that it cheaper to make a "15 inch" 16:9 screen than a "15 inch" 4:3 screen. The later is bigger, but your typical consumer shopping based on marketing materials won't be able to figure that out.

But consumers did not choose 16:9 over 16:10, because consumers cannot tell the difference. We can thank TV panels for that switch:

LENOVO: "Again, we can thank the LCD manufacturers for this change. By cutting everything in the same aspect ratio, they have less waste per large sheet of glass. Since these manufacturers make more selling TV displays than laptop displays, the PC vendors have almost zero say in this change. We simply have to adapt." http://blog.lenovo.com/perspectives/display-ratio-change-aga...

> Really the notion that manufacturers, except for brave Apple, unilaterally decided to force this on users is completely asinine.

In the case of the iPad, it's completely true. Apple decided that 4:3 screens were the best form factor for a hand-held tablet. So they made 4:3 happen, rather than settle for common and cheaper 16:9 or 16:10 screens. Guess what ratio Android tablets use.

This has nothing to do with 16:9 or 16:10. This is 16:9 over 4:3.

In the case of the iPad, it's completely true. Apple decided that 4:3 screens were the best form factor for a hand-held tablet.

I have both an Android tablet (A500 with ICS) and an iPad 3rd generation. I -- without doubt -- prefer the form factor of the A500, not just because it presents a much better experience when viewing videos. It's simply a better form factor. Apple is not all knowing, and their reasons for choosing their form factor are, as always, more nuanced than what is "right".

So they made 4:3 happen, rather than settle for common and cheaper 16:9 or 16:10 screens. Guess what ratio Android tablets use.

When Apple made the iPad pretty much the only 10.1" screen was a 4:3 1024x768 netbook screen. The claim that "Android" (and every other tablet maker) chose the cheaper screen -- one that didn't even exist -- is a bit hard to stomach.

I think a 4:3 screen is much better than 16:9 for a tablet, especially if you're holding it in portrait mode, which is usually how I try and hold a tablet. It's like a piece of paper. 4:3 is simply a better form factor (see what I did there). To each their own.

Computer/laptop monitors didn't switch directly from 4:3 -> 16:9.

They moved from 4:3 -> 16:10 -> 16:9. And the switch to 16:9 happened because of panel cutting and cost, not because of consumer demand.

From the link in my previous post, Lenovo could not keep using 4:3 screens because they had "all but disappeared from the market."

The vast majority of netbooks released in the 2007-2010 range were widescreen, so I don't know where you're getting this idea that 4:3 screens were easier for Apple to source for the iPad.

Or the claim that non-Apple tablet makers aren't simply choosing the cheaper and more common screen format. None of the mass-produced Android tablets have the same form factor as the proven hit, 60+ million units sold iPad. Why?

None of the mass-produced Android tablets have the same form factor as the proven hit, 60+ million units sold iPad. Why?

Aside from some dirty cheap Archos 4:3 tablets (which were actually 4:3, and still dirt cheap, before Apple unveiled the mighty iPad), they don't because it isn't a benefit. Again you're drawing from the notion that Apple's choice is right and everyone else's is wrong, which is a pretty questionable starting point.

Regarding the cost-cutting, it absolutely was cost-cutting to move from 16:10 to 16:9, and few complained because really is it different enough for many to care? It was not cost cutting to move from 4:3 to 16:10 beyond that users demanded a wide screen overwhelmingly, not least because playing video on our desktop became so common.

"Again you're drawing from the notion that Apple's choice is right and everyone else's is wrong, which is a pretty questionable starting point."

Like how your opinion that 16:9 is better somehow isn't a questionable starting point? Sure, you might like 16:9 more, but most people seem to prefer 4:3 to 16:9. I myself have a 4:3 Android tablet (a mongrel: the HP TouchPad) and I have to say, between using this and a Transformer, I much prefer 4:3 on a tablet. It's easy to hold portrait or landscape, whereas with a 16:9 display, holding it portrait is awkward. Not only that, but 4:3 portrait mimics a book page much better than 16:9 does and so I feel more comfortable with PDFs on 4:3 than 16:9.

I think monitors should go back 16:10 (compromise between screen real estate and widescreen appeal) and tablets stay at 4:3 (only because of the use cases for a tablet).

They moved from 4:3 -> 16:10 -> 16:9. And the switch to 16:9 happened because of panel cutting and cost, not because of consumer demand.

I do wonder if there was some consumer demand, or at least rising consumer acquiescence, because (I'm speculating) as laptops have become less expensive and more powerful the market consisted of relatively fewer developers and business people and more folks who see their computer as an entertainment system.

Definitely agree that widescreen has become common due to customer preference. But is 16:9 over 16:10 really a selling point (or even noticeable) to the average laptop buyer?

It probably has been used as a gimmick competitive advantage ("even more widescreen than before!") but I bet the 16:10->16:9 move was predominantly due to screen supply and cost.

but I bet the 16:10->16:9 move was predominantly due to screen supply and cost.

Most likely, while the percentage of consumers who would be complaining has rapidly dropped.

Also, if you've never had a laptop before then it's all pretty much the same.

"it presents a much better experience when viewing videos"

How? You hear this same claim all the time, never with any explanation. It's not as if you're LOSING pixels or screen size watching video on a 4:3 tablet. They're simply going unused.

Actually, 4:3 presents a BETTER viewing experience, because transport controls, captions, and data about the video can be presented above or below the image area, instead of over it.

It's not as if you're LOSING pixels or screen size watching video on a 4:3 tablet.

What? Of course you are. Have you never used Netflix on an iPad? Gigantic black bars above and below. I suppose you could grossly distort the image and vertically expand it, but no thanks.

Actually, 4:3 presents a BETTER viewing experience

Absolutely preposterous. So preposterous it merits no direct response.

If the black bars bother you then cover them with tape. You are not loosing anything because they are there - you are gaining height.

Just because the pixel exists doesn't mean you are required to use it.

Opinions like yours are apparently common, so what manufacturers do is remove those areas. You get less pixels, and like it better. Totally preposterous.

Taller screens are better - even when watching widescreen. The extra space is useful for playback controls, closed captions, etc.

You still don't say how you're LOSING pixels. If you had your way (a widescreen tablet) they'd simply chop off the extra pixels to change the aspect ratio. You gain NOTHING.

You also fail to say why putting controls, captions, and chapter indications in the empty space instead of OVER THE VIDEO IMAGE is "preposterous." How is having the video obscured with overlays BETTER?

In short: Your response fails utterly to support your claim.

For reference (everything else has been covered by the other poster replying to you) I was talking about the 16:10-16:9 move forced on consumers. 4:3-16:9 didn't happen directly, there was a brief stop off at 16:10.

So glad the specs of pro development/business machines like the aforementioned Dells and ThinkPads are being influenced by the $299 laptops at BestBuy.

For the opinion of the majority to be meaningful we would need similarly priced choices.

I have a glossy, wide display because that's the only 13" OS X computer money can buy. Please don't include me in an argument by majority. :(

Depending on my task, I may rotate the 1920x1200 screen in front of me 90° to 1200x1920. I find that much more useful for reading large amounts of text and/or code. The underlying OS supports it, the monitor arm this display is mounted on supports it, yet everyone on the job was remarking simultaneously how odd it was and how useful it seemed as they were shoulder-surfing while I picked through a large code-base. A full-screen Terminal window on this monitor in landscape mode is 270x81, which is just plain silly, but 81x270 in portrait mode is very, very useful.

>A full-screen Terminal window on this monitor in landscape mode is 270x81, which is just plain silly, but 81x270 in portrait mode is very, very useful.

Except you are not going to get 81x270 characters in portrait mode unless the characters are square, as in Chinese script.

D'oh! Point taken - actual data: 167x133. Still very handy.

I have two such rotated displays on my work desk side-by-side to get a 21" x 23.5 combined screen. The problem I get is that viewing angle on average displays is pretty week in the vertical angle (great, so nudge it up or down an angle) - but if you put it in portrait mode, this acute viewing angle really hurts - just moving your chair from one part of the desk to another can expose it.

Unless you're going with IPS displays, the portrait mode of a monitor is somewhat compromised.

I still hate 16x9. Please give me back my 4:3.

An HP ZR24w is less than $400. If you're looking at a screen for extended periods, then it's worth spending some cash.

This particular monitor is also 1920x1200, which is a pretty good resolution, WUXGA I think, like the big Dell Precision I used to have.

I used a TN display in vertical position for a while and it sucked. If you moved the head just a little sideways the colors completely changed, and after a couple of hours I started to feel nausea. My doctor told me it was because the eyes are seeing different images (each eye saw the display at different angles, and because of the poor vertical view angles the brain received different colors and light and had to compensate - like using polarized 3D glasses). Now I use a combination of vertical + horizontal 16:10 IPS displays and it's way better. I mostly use the vertical one for web browsing and doc reading.

Very useful indeed. I use a similar 1680 x 1050 rotated 90º (so it's 1050 x 1680) with a browser. When I'm doing frontend work and having a browser fullscreen gives plenty of room for the viewport and web inspector or firebug. It's a real productivity improver.

you probably won't like some of the suggestions for 4K, one was 4096 x 2048 (2:1).

Possibly with anamorphic lenses though, like wide film.

Can you explain the need for anamorphic lenses?

If you watch the 2:1 display through an anamorphic lens you can see it stretched as it's a 4:3 one.

Food for thought: can you create a Fresnel anamorphic lens?

Nope :). Because I really want around 18 inches of vertical height, and how will I fit a 3-foot-wide screen on my desk??

(Edit: Others have discussed the viewing angle issues with rotating a screen, but it is an option.)

For what it's worth, just last night I was dicking around on Newegg looking at laptops and found that a Panasonic Toughbook appears to support 1900x1200 at 15", which is ~1.5 aspect ratio (4:3 = 1.333; 16:9 = ~1.8). The relevant term you want to search for is "WUXGA".

WUXGA is 1920x1200

Noted!

16:9 is awesome if you use a wide, vertical taskbar.

I also keep the taskbar vertical. The important thing if you use a mouse is to have it on a side that's not next to another monitor so the cursor stops at the edge.

Ubuntu Unity. 1920 by 1080 on a no-name LCD LED monitor. Launcher on left set to 32px. Browser in right half, terminal/Gedit in left half (use the shift-alt arrow key shortcuts to semi-tile).

Might consider a second 1920 by 1080 to get to 4 million pixels on the cheap

The monitors I work with are 20:11. Hard to find, but I enjoy them. Let's me tile two 1024 width windows side by side - good for doing cross browser comparisons. Ratio doesn't bother me on a monitor, I can always find some way to utilize it. I would appreciate a higher pixel density though.

I have one 16:10 screen, and then a few years later I want to have two 16:10 monitors... but no luck finding one for a decent price. :( Now i Have one 16:10 and one 16:9 (I suggest not doing this because you will look at the differences every day)

Agreed. If you're going for two monitors, you should try to get the same model. Otherwise you'll spend a lot of time fiddling with color settings and still never get them to quite match.

I'm a fellow 4:3 fan. I understand why width is more useful to some users than height, but I feel like it's a monoculture.

Beyond that, I feel like computer buyers everywhere have been duped. In 2003, there were 15" laptops with QXGA (2048x1536) screens. by 2008, the best you could get in a 15" laptop was WUXGA (1920x1200). Now, with a few soon to disappear exceptions, it's FHD (1920x1050). Note how these are not getting wider; they're only getting shorter.

Note how these are not getting wider; they're only getting shorter.

A friend of mine said the term around his house for these HD displays is "short screens."

TV engineers used to call wide screen "fewer lines".

I suppose if they reduce the height even more they can call it "ultra-wide".

Sony made (and may still make) a clamshell PC intended to fit in a coat pocket with a 1600x768 screen. I'm not sure how they marketed that aspect ratio.

Pixel density isn't the real problem, it's the lack of content. Even though there have been Full HD displays for quite some time most of the HD content is only 720p, especially games on current generation consoles.

I think the problem is that laptop screens are usually marketed as "15 inches" or something, without any mention of what the pixel density is. And for older people large screens with low pixel density might be easier to use.

I'm glad to see that Apple is showing people that pixel density matters more than resolution alone

What the heck....pray tell me that this is some sort of parody or satire?

Those 42" 1080p screens were "retina" displays before Apple decided to excuse lazy graphical scaling with the title. You are so off base holding Apple as the leader that you must be playing soccer.

EDIT: Downvotes, yet the parent is making such an astonishingly revisionist claim that it should be obliterated purely for such fawning ignorance.

While correct I think it is your tone that is earning you down votes.

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