Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by eganist | Hacker News Reader

Full thread

eganist

Related ancient Persian technology: the yakhchal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l) (a.k.a the ice pit).

We still use the same word in farsi for refrigerators today.

View on HN

We still use half of the same word in English! 'yakh' and 'ice' are cognates.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DB%8C%D8%AE

I love learning cognates that don't really look it. Acadian and Cajun is another favorite, although I'm not sure if it counts if they're both used in English.

Try saying "Acadian" quickly, and you can see pretty easily how it might elide into "Cajun".

Uh-cay-dee-yan

Cay-dee-yan

Cage-dee-yan

Cay-jee-yan

Cay-jun

Speech gets lazier with repetition. Ask any native of New Orleans how their city's name is pronounced: the majority will say something like "Noo-ahh-lins" or even just "Nah'lins".

New Orleans. Outside it's four syllable. Inside it's one

That's a stretch.

It's true though. The same transformation of the ending syllables happened with Indian becoming Injun (although that one eventually became offensive, unlike Cajun).

I think I read the word with the stress on the second syllable. On the first one it makes a lot more sense now.

We use the other half too. 'Chal' and 'hole' are cognates as well.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DA%86%D8%A7%D9%84#Persian

YakhChAL: Ice-hollow.

They might be but that link doesn't seem to say that.

There are many cognates between Farsi and English. Here’s my list of really obvious ones:

Mani/Meaning

Dobare/Again (Double)

Vacal/Vocal

Lab/Lip

No/New

Baradar/Brother

Beitar/Better

Dokhtar/Daughter

Mord/Dead (i.e mortal)

Pose/Pose

Setareh/Star

Recid/Received

Dar/Door

Darije/Degree

Band (Bebande, mibandam)/To bind

Both languages being in the Indo-European language family, that's not very surprising.

Sure. And we all live on the same planet, and everything is related to everything else, so nothing is surprising.

Weird take.

I also stumbled upon this from here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classifi...

It is used to describe climates in the above article.

Relatedly, the word "icebox" also used to be commonly used to refer to refrigerators in the early 20th century, because before the advent of domestic refrigerating machines, ice in a (insulated) box was used.

I visited several of these things in Yazd. Super fascinating technology (and the city in general too).

Just a minor off topic pet peeve of mine, but why not keep calling the language that Persians speak "Persian" in English? Just how it doesn't feel entirely right to suddenly start calling Spanish "Español" instead in English, or Swedish as "Svenska" and so on. I've met so many people not realizing the endonym "farsi" is just a (for some reason) new word in English used for the already well established name for the Persian language

I have only ever heard of the language referred to as Farsi in English. We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican.

Funnily enough it's called Spanish because it's from Spain.

> We call the language that Mexicans speak, Spanish, not Mexican

In the same way that we use “French” for the language spoken by the Quebecois as well as that spoken by the French, we use “Spanish” for the one spoken by Mexicans as well as that spoken by the Spanish, sure. (Same as we use “English” for the language spoken by Americans as well as the one spoken by people in England.)

But that's not what’s going on with Farsi.

Yes, because they speak Spanish. But you call it Spanish, not "Español". That's the point.

There are perfectly fine English words for what the Spanish call "Español" ("Spanish"), and what the Germans call "Deutsch" ("German"), and what the Indonesians call "Bahasa Indonesia" ("Indonesian"), and what the French call "Français" ("French"), and what the Chinese call "普通话" ("Mandarin"), and what the Persians call "Farsi" ("Persian").

Farsi is solely the name of the language. Persian could describe the language or a number of other things, such as the culture, the people, etc.

Farsi and Persian are interchangable in the context of the language, and plenty of Persian Americans prefer using "Persian" to name the language rather than Farsi (this is especially common among persians who refer to themselves as "Persian," and I think a lot of it is because "Farsi" is associated with "Iranian" which has a less ideal connotation associated with it in the West today). But it's not universal, and both are pretty widely accepted.

That's my understanding. I'm not versed in the historical details though. There's probably a Persian culture professor lurking who can offer a more informed answer.

I've only ever known the language as being called "Farsi". I don't think I've ever heard the language being called "Persian".

That's a very interesting question. I've only ever heard it referred to as Farsi, so I didn't even know there was another option. Intriguingly, Wikipedia provides plenty of information, which seems to support your position (italics mine):

"Farsi, which is the Persian word for the Persian language, has also been used widely in English in recent decades, more often to refer to Iran's standard Persian. However, the name Persian is still more widely used. The Academy of Persian Language and Literature has maintained that the endonym Farsi is to be avoided in foreign languages, and that Persian is the appropriate designation of the language in English, as it has the longer tradition in western languages and better expresses the role of the language as a mark of cultural and national continuity. Iranian historian and linguist Ehsan Yarshater, founder of the Encyclopædia Iranica and Columbia University's Center for Iranian Studies, mentions the same concern in an academic journal on Iranology, rejecting the use of Farsi in foreign languages."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language#Name

It’s part of our overseas propaganda efforts to use American linguistic hegemony to void cultural and historical ties with countries we aren’t friends with. The language is Persian, not Farsi.

I guess only the Italians and the Russians have American friendship.

French in French = Francais

German in German = Deutsch

Spanish in Spanish = Espanola

Dutch in Dutch = Nederlands (old name: Diets, I might add)

Irish in Irish = Gaelic (actually kind-of refers to 2 languages, but ...)

Swedish in Swedish = Svenska

Norwegian in Norwegian = Norsk

Finnish in Finnish = Suomalainen

(Note: most of these have various accents and special characters that aren't correctly typed here, as well as a bunch of nuances that really should be there)

Irish in Irish is Gaeilge, not Gaelic.

Gaelic is an English word for a family of languages which Gaeilge belongs to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic

I would be quite happy if we had a word for the language of France that was distinct from the adjective. It's not uncommon that I need to pause and clarify (typically "French people", that is, native francophones vs. residents of France). Not sure why more ambiguity is to be sought after.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I would never interpret "French people" to mean anything other than people from France (not necessarily resident in France though). If we're referring to language then it would be something like "French speakers", or "native French speakers" if you want to be specific.

He meant "French" primarily means "French people" and only secondarily "French language".

I'd try to distinguish this with a definite article, like "the French" vs "French", but what do I know?

The irony.

I am a bit indignant at having to call English British English, why isn’t it English English; to differentiate it from American English, decorated with a little US flag as a visual guide.

To include English as spoken in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Cornwall, etc. “Celtic archipelago English” is a mouthful, although it would be more accurate when including Ireland.

Seriously. OP doesn't seem to realize that someone in Ireland may also be a "bit indignant" at suggesting it's merely "English" English.

British English means it's English as written in the British Isles.

Someone in Ireland may reasonably also have a problem with “British Isles”, but that’s harder to fix.

Here's a link you can use to explain the topic to people who make this mistake: https://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/persian_not_farsi.h...

Not all countries where Spanish is spoken call it Español. In many countries, notably including Spain itself, it is called Castellano (Castillian). There are several other (mostly related) languages also spoken in Spain, such as Galician or Catalan.

"Spanish language" can be a bit imprecise because it could mean different things in different contexts.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com