"Never, ever, no matter what, go to a timeshare presentation"
theatlantic.com
theatlantic.com
The salesman was tired and ready to go home. Instead of the regular 2-3 hours, we spent 15 minutes with him while the baby fussed a bit. Then he handed us our hotel voucher.
Just be strategic. Like most things.
You did pay for them. “Several hours of time” easily adds up to hundreds of dollars.
Think about it this way: How much would you pay to get 1 hour of your time back? Like paying for takeout instead of going to get it yourself. Or paying to get your lawn mowed. Or your house cleaned. That’s how much your time is worth to you.
I pay someone to maintain my yard because I don't want to do it. I don't want to own the equipment either. It makes financial sense. So, even if I'm inside watching TV and hanging with my family, it's money well spent for me.
Some tasks may mean you can forego equipment purchases/maintenance but you're probably not literally saving money by having someone do something for you. Which is fine! It's perfectly OK to say I don't like doing yard work and can afford to pay someone to do it for me. You're probably both happier as a result.
We have to conclude that children, love, friendship, &c are all valueless because they do not have an exchange value ie: price.
What are the odds that job allows you to work an extra hour any time you feel like it? In the other direction, if you drop a few hours a week when you feel like it -- how long do you remain employed? Not too long, unless you're actually being underpaid for a specialist position.
Let's suppose that you have a salary of $200K/year, and the boss generally expects you to be working on the company's problems 40 hours a week, with the occasional flex time when you or they need it. Do they pay you more on weeks when you work 42 hours? Less on weeks of 38 hours? No.
(At lower salaries, overtime is real -- but a corporation is quite likely to fire you if you make a habit of taking or dropping hours without advance permission.)
Almost nobody is in a position where they can directly and accurately value an arbitrary hour as income or loss of income.
There’s more to opportunity cost than money. That’s time with family, time to just chill, time for hobbies, all sorts of stuff.
Every time you pay to outsource a task you could do yourself by just putting in the time, you are explicitly saying “Having this time back is worth $X to me”. That is a direct measure of how much your time is worth to you.
There were a lot of problems in the relationship. I try not to think about those days.
In one such occasion, she took me to an "auction" where we were "guaranteed" to win appliances or thousands of dollars. It of course turned out to be a timeshare sales pitch. She was so angry at me for walking out when the "sales manager"[1] began to insinuate that we've been wasting their time and that "authorities could get involved".
My ex-wife hissed at me that I was embarrassing her and why don't I understand what these awesome people were trying to do for us. In her eyes, the sales folks really found her funny, pretty, well dressed, and so so smart, and they're "so sad that she'll miss out on earning 1000s of dollars a month with zero effort!" (I think there may have been an element of multi-level-marketing involved).
One tactic was to state that we could "just take the paperwork home to look it over!" Except of course, we just had to put down a deposit and sign these docs. I'm 100% sure that anything signed would have led to years of financial hassle.
Several days of stony silence later she admitted she had been completely tricked and was ready to sign something stating we'd be paying something like 2k a month (in 2005) forever.
[1] The sales manager was huge and intimidating. He was brought out after I refused to sign any kind of contract and tried to bully me into signing.
Timeshare salespeople don’t want to waste their time trying to sell to someone who knows what’s up, came solely for the promotional gift, and is categorically not going to buy. Sometimes we had to refuse to play their numbers games, when they asked for our income so they could “show” us just how good a deal their crap was, but we never had to sit through a full presentation.
We went on a fun, totally free cruise courtesy of one of those companies. Good times.
Big mistake.
Don't assume it will be only two hours.
I did once pay to go to a 3-day RE workshop which turned out to be a sales pitch. And oh boy, when it comes to fantastic presentations, this was the best. They're basically trying to sign you up for mentorship at a cost of $35-50K, so I can see they've got money to make it fancy and hire top salesmen as well as entertainment equipment. It was basically a 3 day long show. If they'd made it a lot cheaper (e.g. $15K), I could see myself falling for it. Who doesn't want to get rich, and what they were offering was sound (except for the fact that most people who pay don't have the discipline to follow through on RE work).
It wasn't very pushy, though. I had a brief 5-10 minute 1:1 with a rep. Perhaps he sensed dirty tactics wouldn't work for me? I did hear from another attendee that their meeting with (another) rep was worse - along the lines of "You're saying No. Do you want to be the type of person who always lets opportunities go by? When are you going to change to better yourself?" Had they said that to me I would have gotten up immediately.
Although I was annoyed at being duped, I actually did learn quite a bit about RE in those 3 days. It was something like 35% real education and 65% sales pitch, with the education scattered in between throughout the 3 days.
Of course, one could learn it all themselves. Plenty of cheap/free resources. However, there was value in having it all presented in one place.
I’ll save you some time: “Timeshare sales pitches are high pressure and hard to say no to. Avoid them.”
He enjoyed toying with the reps, almost agreeing to sign, then in the last moment suddenly asking a hard question. Watching them apply all their dirty tricks.
He and his wife would go out to such event once in a while and come back with stories to tell.
I think finally reps started to make notes in their CRM systems about me.
I am not opposed to buying in principle if something seems useful, but I need the facts and the prices up front, then for some questions to be answered in a logical and accurate way.
Asking a rep to write down what he just said and sign it is a good way to ensure accurate information.
Some have adapted and some of them made sales. A lot of them will never come back again.
Win - Win.
Wow! I had no idea you could sign a contract that obligates your benificiaries after your death.
https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/can-you-inherit-...
(Never co-sign for someone!)
Unless you’re prepared to write off the entire amount as a gift.
(Though in that case, it’s probably better to just give them the money. After all, there’s a reason their signature is insufficient on its own.)
You do any time you buy property subject to an HOA with fees (which is, in fact, how lots of timeshares are structured.)
I'm guessing a timeshare foreclosure shows up on credit reports, and in the period between when they figure out you're not likely to pay and when they file for foreclosure, that you're past due on those payments will likely also show up, and I'm sure they'll try to convince you to pay.
The mortgage framing is really the same question - can a mortgage lender get a judgement for loan balance and costs above auction value from someone who didn't sign the mortgage note? Let's say you're transferred a claim to a mortgaged piece of real property through operation of estate law, deed of executor, or even deed from the living owner. Are you somehow obligated for the entire amount of the loan, beyond your desire to not have your interest foreclosed upon?
Talking about social credit reports is a bit of a red herring. If it isn't a valid debt, then it wouldn't be legitimate for someone to add it to the financial surveillance records about you. And yes I know these timeshare operations are quite adept at using extralegal pressure to goad people into doing foolish legally-binding things, but I'm talking about what's strictly legal.
My understanding is that timeshare expenses are like HOA expenses, it's not exactly a contract, it's an encumberence on the property. The owner of the property has duties, whether they want them or not, by virtue of being the owner, not because they agreed to the situation. (Of course, it would hopefully be made clear to you that it's a non-negotiable encumberence before you accept ownership)
> But the disclaimer of interests I'm familiar with mean estate law continues to operate as if you have already passed away - meaning the same dynamic would just land in the laps of your greater family.
There's kind of two options here; maybe someone in the greater family wants it, in which case, their pain. If nobody wants it, I think there's some default end for property with no known heirs, and if everyone disclaims it, that's where it goes.
The person who singed the agreement is dead and there is no estate to sue.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/inheriting-timesh...
But the icing on the cake was after we said "pass", the salesperson was angry and berated us for being "irresponsible" for not "having something to leave for our children". Bro, the money.
Last one I went to (in Las Vegas) the guy was actually very chill and we spent the whole time talking about the sales tech/presentation tech he was using, about the LV market generally, etc.
There is a 72hr "cooling off" law in my state that I leveraged to cut my losses at a couple hundred $.
Btw for those who are interested, the episode is Asspen (s6e2):
Timeshares are obviously a scam, but why did I just read 5000 words about how she agreed to go on a discounted vacation in exchange for a timeshare pitch, and that's exactly what happened. The hotel was fine. The sales pitch was a sales pitch. She wasn't detained or assaulted or forced into anything. Her husband seems like an absolute saint and I can't imagine why he puts up with her.
-George Bernard Shaw
Second is that they charge maintenance fees. You have to pay ever increasing amount.
Third is that you can’t cancel the contract. And they are impossible to sell. There is huge depreciation and buyers want desirable areas. The only good way to get one is buy used at big discount.
I don’t do the whole timeshare thing, but I have family who do and they seem happy.
I know people who buy "used" timeshares happily. The owners really want to get rid of them so they sell at a low price. As long as the rules allow it, they use them as AirBnBs for those two weeks and make a killing. Those locations are premium, so they can charge a lot per night. And they don't have to do any work as the resort staff handle most of the cleaning, etc.
Compared to buying a house/condo and putting it on AirBnB, the per dollar invested gain is much higher with timeshares.
Our neighbor's timeshare works by paying for X weeks/year, but then they reserve the weeks they want, reservations open a year ahead of time. The weeks are not fixed.
(Absolutely not defending the world of products sold with high-pressure sales tactics.)
I'd rather be dissuaded by 2 hours of reading an article at home than learning through the experience of a 2 hour sales pitch during my vacation time.
Would you want to spend 2-3 hours of a 3-day vacation negotiating a new car price? If no, then maybe you also don't want to spend 3 hours saying, "No, thank you" to a very nice timeshare salesperson and you should spend it at the beach, in front of slot machines, or getting drunk instead.
Not all of your time is the same.
A few months ago I went with my father to a presentation by a company that helps people get rid of their timeshares. The presenter said buying a timeshare is like pre-paying for your next 30+ years of vacations. The annual maintenance fees pay the property taxes for the resorts, state governments like their property tax revenues, so they allow the racket to continue.
The 'time share relief' presenter asked everyone how much their annual fees were, and pegged their company's fee to the annual fee charged by the timeshare company.
Dad was all ready to sign up to pay $X,XXX to get rid of it. He's at the point where he doesn't have the energy to travel anymore, so he thinks the maintenance fees are just money wasted. I looked into the matter. Our state's law makes it relatively easy to get rid of timeshare fees, without having to pay for the services of a timeshare exit firm. Furthermore, many of the timeshares have programs for people like my father to get rid of their obligations: https://responsibleexit.com/who-we-are/diamond-resorts/
My brother ended up offering to split the fees with our father, as he likes to use it for his little trips. The properties do give preferential treatments to their 'owners', and the cost-per-night isn't so bad, as long as you use the nights you've paid for. My GF and I have used it twice this year, and have another trip coming up. I guesstimated the room's cost was about $50/night for a studio with refrigerator and cooktop. The same room was going for $150+/night on priceline & the other booking sites.
The Timeshare Users Group is probably one of the best internet forums about timeshares: https://tugbbs.com/forums/
tl/dr: if you're thinking about buying, DON'T. But in our case, what mom & dad paid out 30+ years ago would cost $80,000+ today, so we might as well just keep paying the maintenance fees and try to use it for all our little trips. <shrug>.