Nicotine (2016)
gwern.net
gwern.net
But if you do become addicted to nicotine, and are one of the people with a high propensity for nicotine addiction, you're fucked. It's one of the most challenging addictions to quit, as we all know. Is this a risk you want to take for some mild stimulation? As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone who takes this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences. The exception might be people who have consumed nicotine on and off but have never had addictive tendencies. Those people definitely exist, but it still seems like a risky thing to assume about yourself since being wrong could be life altering.
I also take exception to the articles emphasis that moving on to cigarettes is the only real risk. Yes, that's where the majority of the health problems come from. But don't underestimate the negative consequences of a physical addiction, even one that does not lead to health problems. It is not fun to be addicted to anything that contorts your body and mind outside of your control.
Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug’s effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15% who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous but much less than smoking.
His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more and more rats showed little interest.
This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior and makes addiction less likely, often much less.
This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.
Waking up in the morning and finding I’m out of coffee is an issue on par with, I don’t know, waking up and finding we’re out of milk and I need to eat some toast instead of cereal. Not the way to start the day, but I’ll grumble and get through.
Waking up in the morning and finding out I’m out of nicotine is immediate 11/10 anxiety. My brain is focused only on how to get some. Can I make it to the store and back before my first meeting of the day? If it’s tight, I can be a bit late. If I can’t, I’m basically autopiloting myself through my morning until the first free minute I have to run out and get some. That is the _only_ thing on my mind.
From past experience, if I’m down to my last $10 and have the choice between food and coffee I’ll pick food. If I have the choice between food and cigarettes, I’ll pick cigarettes.
If I'm traveling, I'll take the risk that the hotel doesn't have coffee for some reason. I don't pack coffee in my suitcase. There's probably some mini-bottles or something in there though in case I can't get my hands on some alcohol along the way.
I'm still addicted to nicotine, I vape. But I wake up, where my vape is is not the first thing I think about. I dont plan my day by how much nicotine I have left. When I get under the weather I can give it up for a few days with no problem. This is not the same addiction I had when smoking cigarettes, this is a milder, more casual thing, I don't get cravings, I get these small little desires for a puff. Whatever is going on with cigarettes, nicotine is only a small part of that. Quitting cigarettes is one of the hardest things I've ever done, I could not vape for the rest of the day and only feel a mild annoyance. In my experience the article is correct, there's something more going on with cigarettes than just nicotine.
I've recently started adding free base harmaline to my vape juice to create a proper tobacco substitute... I found that nicotine alone didn't provide the relaxation that I would get from smoking tobacco. After a fair amount of research I discovered that it was that lack of harmala compounds.
I am curious though if this worked for you as a full substitute to sate cravings, and what amount you added.
My experience is that nicotine is highly addictive based on dosage and delivery.
Cigars were in no way addictive, I suspect because the delivery of the nicotine takes quite a while.
The zyn though, I quickly ramped up from low dosages (1-3mg) to the higest dosages (10mg+). And at my worst I'd go through a 20 pack of those per day.
I tried quitting cold turkey multiple times from the zyn, failed each time. Tried slowly decreasing strength till I reached 3mg and then quit, that worked fine and was actually relatively easy.
I still smoke cigars, they just don't trigger the same reactions that the zyn did.
For more fine grained decreases I've used the 3mg, then 2mg, then split up pieces of nicotine gum (2 or 4 mg) to get down to like 1 and .5 mg doses.
Going from 3mg to no longer using was relatively straightforward.
Trying to quit from 10mg cold turkey was basically impossible. 4 days after going cold turkey I was still absolutely desperate for nicotine. The difference was massive.
Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.
What a shortsighted and close minded comment (talking about parent).
Or in other words: Why do people only get little addicted and can easily stop chewing nicotin gums, while for only a small percentage of smokers it is possible to quit via the nicotin gum replacement?
Or in even other words: Both coffeine and heroine are addictive, but we can agree that there are differences?
That's the key thing there, "smoker". If you become addicted to nicotine via smoking tobacco, then you're possibly fucked, but nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.
I don't know why you take exception to some people or articles emphasizing the above, or that cigarettes are the major risk. It's mostly true and addiction by itself specifically to a cheap, easily available substance like nicotine, which doesn't devastate daily functionality or economic solvency as many other narcotics do, is not terrible by itself.
I was able to switch from chewing tobacco to nicotine pouches and gum but still feel the addiction is terrible.
So, recently I had to learn that nicotine is super toxic and can be lethal or at least severely damaging to internal organs, especially for children, toddlers, babies, small animals (dogs, cats), etc.
Maybe Google it, or ask your doctor, if your assumption that "by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being" stands.
“The dose makes the poison.”
Anyways, not going to list out all the pros and cons of nicotine as Andrew Huberman did that for us. He has a decent podcast that’s goes through it all.
No one really argues that it’s essential or beneficial in every way but it’s not the purported demon that the anti smoker lobby has made it out to be.
Many years ago, I heard the Japanese even put it into their drinks. I’ve tried searching for it now and found some iffy sources and outdated Reddit links and everything else is just e juice vape spam. Can any Japanese knowledgeable people confirm or deny this?
Not going to discuss on your other arguments, just wanted to say that if anything smaller than a grown adult eats a cigarette or just plain tobacco, better call the doctor.
Addiction (substance use disorder) exists when a person exhibits two or more of the following symptoms: (1) impaired control, (2) social problems, (3) risky use, and (4) physical dependence.
Impaired control means using more of a substance or more often than intended; or wanting to cut down or stop use but not being able to.
Social problems includes things like neglecting responsibilities and relationships, abandoning activities the person used to care about, or failing to fulfill obligations at home, school or work - because of the substance use.
Risky use includes things like using in risky settings, continued use despite known problems, engaging in risky substance-related practices like sharing needles, risky sexual activity (because of, or in order to obtain the drug), and driving while intoxicated.
Physical dependence is needing more of the substance to get the same effect, or having withdrawal symptoms when a substance isn't used.
Two or three symptoms indicate mild substance use disorder. Four or five symptoms indicate moderate, and six or more indicate severe substance use disorder. When people talk about addiction, they are typically referring to severe substance use disorder.
Physical dependence and tolerance are not the same as addiction. Substance use disorder is by definition problematic.
That is incorrect.
Addiction is bad by definition.
That is what I was replying to.
What you are brushing off as “boilerplate” are the DSM-5 criteria for substance use disorder — colloquially known as addiction.
- Nicotine IS really addictive when distributed through common uses (smoking, vaping).
Yes, if the absorption is progressive and in small dosages, the addiction is less severe, but this is not useful for smokers who want to quit and presents a dangerous introduction for others
From the article,
> There is little evidence from the NRT literature that ‘never-smokers’ like myself are all that likely to become highly addicted,
That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to cigarettes.
I have zero interest in smoking weed or cigarettes. It's a completely different thing in my mind.
I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all.
So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicting and therefore far more bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
I personally believe there are additional elements involved that could be genetic or psychological.
In my opinion, majority of the people who are stopping Nicotine (not just smoking) approach it as an incredibly hard challenge. The process is demonised and described as something that is really hard to complete. That's exactly what I would like people to think if I'd be to work in a marketing department for tobacco corporations.
While there is a longer story behind it, I quit cold turkey in March this year. This time was much easier - I didn't approach it as something that is hard to do. While this might sound banal, I focused on what am I getting out of it, not what I'm loosing. Everything, from my gums to my muscles got better.
Nicotine in its pure form is definitely great brain stimulant, I'm still a big fan. I just don't think it's worth the cost, both from financial and health perspective to use it often.
I've also temporarily quit nicotine and caffeine when I got sick, and I think part of the reason is that the withdrawal effects are less noticeable and/or maybe you attribute them to the illness. Also, if you get sick enough to take time off from work, that tends to coincide with the worst withdrawal effects, which last about three days in my experience.
I’m definitely just as addicted to the Juul as I ever was to cigarettes, if not more so, and it definitely seems like it will be harder to quit. Cigarettes are so gross it’s almost a benefit, you need to go outside to smoke, the vape is just so easy and so much cleaner, I’ve definitely found it much harder to cut down.
It's not the 80s, so vaping allows one to sit around the house and duff it in a way that most people wouldn't do with cigarettes.
I feel like nicotine intake can dramatically increase with vaping.
Probably not a great 1:1 because there are other things in play with smoking, but, ballparky enough.
If you wanted something closer, you'd need to figure out how the other compounds in cigarette smoke affect nicotine adsorption and activity.
People who quit smoking are actually quitting a synergistic cocktail of drugs - nicotine and a variety of MAO inhibitors found in tobacco smoke. There is good evidence to suggest that these MAOI components dramatically increase the addictiveness of nicotine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01618...
I realize I'm an outlier.
I smoked one pack spread out 2 or 3 days, for about 3 years (in college). Rarely would do a full pack in a day.
Quitting was pure torture. I stayed up 24 hours walking laps around my campus. Took like four full days for cravings to go away.
Haven't had a cigarette in 10 yrs. Occasionally enjoy a cigar without problems
IANAE though.
Either way. I was a smoker but not a heroin user and quitting was the hardest thing for me. It took me almost a month to feel normal.
Quitting cigarettes was trivial. I decided not to buy a pack that day and then never bought another pack. That's my anecdotal contribution to the discussion.
Less anecdotally:
Opioid withdrawal, in extreme cases, has killed people from persistent vomiting and diarrhea. It has measurable physical symptoms with an understood pathophysiology largely connected to the cAMP-signaling system.
Nicotine withdrawal is far less understood, to the degree it has been classified at all (mostly in studies of mice). It certainly has never killed anyone, you're not going to shit yourself to death. They're not comparable to one another.
Here’s one for you https://academic.oup.com/ntr/article/20/9/1038/4096884
But I don't really care. It doesn't sound true but it also doesn't change anything.
There's evidence for this, too -- he quit using heroin decades ago, but only managed to quit smoking a few years back.
So it seems to be true, at least for him.
For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting coffee addiction. Coffee is everywhere, cheap, and consumption is all but encouraged. If I were to smoke I take on all sorts of baggage. Much of smoking is about being a smoker which is a mindset and community that is hard to leave. Social effects can be much stronger than physical dependence.
Operative phrase here: "for you".
As a substance its no where near as addicting as heroin, no one would actually ruin their lives for nicotine in case it was illegal and expensive.
a) The downsides to smoking are far longer term and harder to feel daily
b) You're surrounded by smokers, you can literally smell them smoking just by walking down the street
c) Smoking is legal. You can just go buy a pack.
I am unsurprised that quitting smoking is harder for some people, given that. But in terms of withdrawal symptoms, that's where I think heroin is probably worse. But I also don't really know. So far someone linked a Google search and an irrelevant paper.
smoking cigarettes is just an all around bad experience, it smells bad, it tastes bad, it hurts my throat, and for what? Light headedness, possibly with the spins? And the smell lingers it gets into everything, you basically need to change your clothes after you smoke a cigarette.
I’m a non smoker period, and I can only assume this “oh everyone says they can’t get addicted to cigarettes until they start smoking” attitude can only be projection from hapless addicts. It just doesn’t work that way for me.
I’ve even tried nicotine gum, just to see if maybe it’s the smoking itself that’s a turnoff - without the smell and the taste, maybe nicotine is good on its own? But it’s not - it’s the same head-spinning mild nausea that I recognize right away from cigarettes. who is this drug for? Because it’s certainly not me. Addicted to this? I literally cannot imagine it, why would I seek such a comprehensively bad experience compulsively and repeatedly? It just doesn’t compute for me.
this is a bizarre assumption. first of all, no one said that everyone who hasn't smoked has a strong propensity, what I said was that everyone who has been addicted once wasn't. I myself have very little propensity towards addiction to nicotine and do not enjoy cigarettes. that doesn't mean that I think this talk of most "never-smokers" having little propensity towards addiction makes sense. everyone who has ever been addicted to nicotine was once a "never-smoker", and probably billions of people consume nicotine every day. those numbers tell the real story
[0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...
Gwern has noted the same in his post:
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
But on the other side it could be just the fact that when you are hooked, you need it just to not feel the withdraw.
As with some drugs this one can be used beneficially if well spaced (idk a full week, then 3m without it?). To me any use beyond this small period is just not efficient, performance wise.
I used to smoke a pack a month, last year i discovered this pouches from a Swedish friend (he was talking about the under-average incidence of lung cancer there). I got hooked, and it was really bad to quit. Yes its not like its crack/heroine and ill go steal or stop showering, but i had sever trouble sleeping (of course i slept with them many times). The quit moment for me was when i started to double dose on the strongest ones, also my gums were sore and bled sometimes (if i could not buy my preferred brand i would buy minted, felt like a junkie going to crack on not finding whatever drug of preference)...
Any worry about longterm effects of nicotine? I’ve tried to find good studies online but most center around smoking, not the gum or pure nicotine.
I personally have not felt any lingering affects outside of some drowsiness after wards. It seems like an easy enough habit to drop as well, as I have done so for a few months at a time for surgery recoveries. I am in agreement with the study linked in this article that nicotine by itself seems the same (for me, better) as similar stimulants like caffeine. I would never smoke however, as that seems to be the real issue.
I have stopped using it for months at a time and never has any withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine otoh is addictive for me and will cause withdrawal symptoms if I indulge too often. The caffeine buzz can make me jittery and increase ADHD type behaviors for me. Ymmv.
I started taking caffeine pills before working out (a ~100mg dose) and it works really well, I wonder if I should try out nicotine gum too
I don't do it everyday and I take breaks. It all comes very organically, I don't have to plan it.
I had no noticeable addiction whatsoever, and I was hyperaware of the risk from the all the press over smoking addiction.
Amazon usually has some really great offers on nicotine gum if you drill through their site long enough.
Nicotine has antifungal and antimicrobial attributes. I have even seen studies claiming smokers were less likely to get serious covid infections likely due to some property of nicotine.
Native Americans treated tobacco as a sacred plant and praised it for all sorts of health and spiritual properties. That makes me think the plant and its consumption is probably a net benefit and it may be the way commercial cigarettes and tobacco are processed that cause the problems.
My dad has smoked here and there my whole life but mostly in the summer. He'll go all 6 months of winter (Minnesota) without smoking not wanting to be in the cold and not wanting to smoke in the house.
He never "needs" a smoke, unlike my mother. It's always "oh a smoke would be nice on this beautiful night".
I like to smoke a tobacco pipe and do so about 6-10 times a year. I think I got my dad's side of it
The same is not true for me with respect to alcohol, so it’s not like I’m especially immune to addiction. I just think specifically with smokes it’s not as simple as “everyone addicted always”. Which I’ve heard claimed.
I’ve tried to quit multiple times but I’m weak. I can go a few months but always get pulled back.
IMO there are no benefits. If you never had nicotine and this link made you curious don’t. You will most likely become a life long user to one of the most addictive chemicals known to man.
In university I used to bum cigarettes off people all the time and have one here and there, esp back when you could smoke at the club, at a rave, etc. before bylaws. I'd even buy a pack of cigarettes here and there, and then just...forget about them and never finish them. Sometimes I'd have a bit of a craving for two or three days after and just power through it, and that was that.
In the summer I'll smoke some pipe tobacco, and every few years smoke a cigar. Don't really crave after.
Before my older sister was born my father was a heavy smoker. When my mom got pregnant, he just quit, and that was that, never ever showed any interest in smoking again.
But then I've seen the very brutal suffering that I saw friends go through trying to quite their smoking habit. Just awful.
All said, I don't think nicotine is a wise thing to mess with. Vaping especially to me seems like a slippery slope because it kind of gives the vibe of a kind of "consequence-less" interaction with the drug. If you smoke a pipe or cigar, you stink, you might get a headache, and it actually costs quite a bit of $$. Vaping is set up to seem like this casual entertainment with few consequences. I'm glad my teens have so far ridiculed it and shown no interest.
Edit: the only benefit I get now is not thinking about nicotine until my cravings kick in again. While loop from hell.
If the theory that nicotine alone is not as addictive as smoking is correct I'm not sure the concern makes more sense than concern over other common addictions.
So, I'd like to warn any non-smoker that may want to try out nicotine: please start with a very small dose, and only gradually build up; because otherwise it can be dangerous.
This tip brought to you by cigar smokers.
Nicotine is considered one of the most (if not THE most) physically and psychologically addictive substances in the entire world. Prior to introducing nicotine into your body, there is no compulsion for your body want/need it. However, as SOON as you introduce it for the first time, it gives birth to a "little monster" of need within you. This monster will remain within you until the day you die. Sure, eventually you can starve this "little monster" down into a tiny little husk, so that it no longer has any effect on you, but there's always going to be that slight twinge... That slight trickle in the back of your mind that something's missing. I feel that once you go down the road of nicotine you'll forever regret it.
However, if you have been a smoker I guess it's alright to try but,
Another interesting thing I found in the same thread is the Moderator's note [1]:
The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of administration method causes Smoker's Melanosis, and it is likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number of moles which smokers and their families get.
The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa [2].
So, it's still not safe completely. I have been a smoker and I quit long ago but after reading the article I'd still stick with the good ol' coffee!
0: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
1: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
The one good thing I got out of it was knowing what addiction felt like. I'm sure it kept me from getting addicted to more dangerous things when I was younger.
Sometimes I use nicotine gums / patches as a dieting aid (effective appetite suppressant).
And I want to warn against this premise of short half life. This is not true in general. There are active metabolites like cotinine with elimination half life of 20h+, depending on your liver enzymes, gender, ethnicity.
If I chew a nicotine gum around noon, I have trouble sleeping the whole following night with my brain unable to calm down, mild jaw clenching etc.
So yes, moldafinil is a terrible stimulant due to too long half life, but so is nicotine (for many). I definitely don't recommend for that purpose. Maybe for extreme (crash) dieting, but this is unhealthy in general.
The first time, I thought it was a fun idea but nothing I wanted, see; my brain is all I have so I dont much fancy experimenting with it- this is also why I avoided alcohol and coffee despite social pressures.
The community that formed went away as quickly as it had been created; various people began having psychological issues.
The next time I heard about nootropics I passed along the information. “This time, will be different” the anonymous internet handle claimed.
“We know more, we will not do anything dangerous”.
Alas, the same fate befell them, and the community that formed quickly dissapated as they became incoherent even amongst each other. Prone to fits of paranoia and delusions of a grandiose conspiracy - which they were the only people who could see the truth.
Later, on of my fellow IRC opers followed this path, I gave strict warning that it was hubris to believe himself smarter at drug use for brain optimisation than the scores of admittedly intelligent people who came before. He (much) later would become unhinged and fly cross continent to find me at my irl work location where he threatened my mother.
He was incoherent most of the time and dropped out of university.
So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much. I know some people must be pioneers to understand what works but I always took “YOLO” as a warning and not as a reason to throw caution to the wind.
That said, I am a heavy user of caffeine in adulthood and I am more susceptible to pressure on drinking alcohol now. So I will admit to being hypocritical when it comes to the socially acceptable brain altering drugs.
NB: Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks; so if you decide to take this advice, make sure you wait at least a fortnight between doses.
While nicotine has not historically been used in isolation, it has been used both in recreation and religion settings for around 2000 years. Caffeine use is similar, perhaps older.
There’s still reason to be wary of higher dosages or new delivery routes, but it seems unlikely that dabbling in low-dose caffeine or nicotine use will make you go crazy, based on the mountain of historical evidence to the contrary.
Stimulants increase likelihood of psychosis, but that's conditional on dosage and precursor risk variables
> So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much
And that's true, insofar as we are able to agree on what "mess with our brains" and "too much" means.
Is taking some choline "messing" with the brain? Definitely. Is it "too much?" well, perhaps you think so. Is drinking coffee "too much"? Apparently we both agree that it is not "too much", I'm drinking some caffeine right now.
One thing about Choline and Caffeine is that they are very well studied, especially in terms of safety. The further you go into the nootropics world the less studied options you'll find - things range from "zero data" to "used for 1000s of years by an unscientific people" to "animal studies exist" and beyond.
My personal "too much" is when there's a combination of weak evidence to support benefits and weak evidence to support safety in humans.
I think that is definitely a strong and salient way to think about mind altering chemicals.
It has a half-life of 2 hours [0]. If it lasted longer I think its withdrawal effect would be less steep and more gradual.
I would also mention that nicotine itself has a marginally lower addictive rating if we go by ΔFosB expression. Having been someone that got hooked on cigarettes (and quit), the same habits never formed for nicotine, and the inclination was never there. And it is trivial to quit nicotine (compared to caffeine, even more so for cigarettes).
Though, I do agree in essence with your post. It is hubris to play around with this sort of thing. And there is never a free lunch (unless we're speaking strictly of micronutrients and pseudomicronutrients/vitamins).
Problems that could be solved by exercise, sunlight, sleep, and a positive mental attitude, but then they try nootropics instead.
It always ends the same way - psychosis, incoherence, paranoia.
The brain is a finely tuned network, use it’s built-in hapiness generators rather than throwing sledgehammers at it.
TLDR: Your starting point is exercise, sleep and sunlight. Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
Most people would disagree - at least, anyone who drinks caffeine would.
I love caffeine and coffee, but if we are talking about well-feeling, 5 minute calistenics would make you feel better in 99% compared to a cup of sugar laden cappuccino
Trying to be more practical and a touch less sarcastic for a minute… I find, on average, I tend to get about two hours more work done on days where I spend at least 45 min in the gym and that includes the hour or more loss from the activity itself. Skipping caffeine on the other hand, doesn’t have any effect unless I’ve missed sleep the night before.
If you are thinking of dipping your toes into supplements though and don’t really want to exercise or sleep, I’ve found Creatine to be really helpful in that state. Definitely a stronger effect than caffeine but takes a lot longer to kick in!
Non-smoker, originally tried nicotine vapes as an alternative to caffeine which I tend to overuse.
Not very effective for me as I seem to have a paradoxical reaction to it that makes me want to take a nap for 5-10 minutes after inhaling, but I found the sensation was pleasurable when combined with cannabis edibles so I kept the vape around.
Absolutely zero physical addiction. I can and have stopped using the vape cold turkey for weeks or months at a time and I felt no withdrawal at all. At the present moment I haven't used it in months.
People commonly believe that stimulants affect people with ADHD differently than non-ADHD people, but I have never seen any research to back that up. It's merely just anecdotes, and I honestly think stimulants, like anything, just affect people differently regardless of ADHD or not.
If anyone has data either way, I would love to see it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction?wprov=sfl...
I've tried off and on to quit for 20 years at least. Don't do it, it's a lot of work to get past the sickness. If I weren't young and ignorant, I'd have never started.
Most weeks I use none, some conferences I've used 2 pieces a day every day for 4-5 days straight. No problems stopping afterward.
This was about 5 years ago.
Recently, I’ve started using nicotine gum to increase focus while working. I usually use 1 mg, maximum 4 times a day. I typically begin taking it in the afternoon, my morning work sessions are usually nicotine-free. I have been using it on most days for about 3 months.
I have zero desire to smoke or vape. On days when I am not taking it, I don’t have a strong craving for the gum.
I’ve also quit caffeine a few days ago, with the intention to not use it for at least 3 months. I find that even low amounts of tea increases my anxiety to the point that it becomes difficult to focus. I’ve been very productive since I stopped caffeine. Mild withdrawal effects in the form of physical tiredness, but I am fine with the tradeoff for less anxiety.
I might have developed some level of physical dependency to nicotine, I’ll see it once I’ll do an extended break. For now, it’s the only dopamine-increasing substance I consume, and I’m fine with it.
So far, I haven’t experienced any strong cravings for the gum when not taking it for a day or two. When I decide to stop in about a couple months, I will power through with discipline.
I really enjoy smoking a pipe, but generally don't because of the health risks and the difficulty finding a place to comfortably smoke as a renter of a non-smoking apartment.
Lately though I've been vaping 0-4x/day to help me focus and get mental energy. I also occasionally use half-doses of modafinil and notice the two work well together. The biggest downside of vaping for me is that I feel a little more agitated and depressed the next day or so. I guess this is what might normally feed the addictive cycle for others, but with type-2 bipolar depression it's a feeling I'm familiar with and I just ride it out vs trying to eliminate the feeling with more nicotine.
However, that person was quite strict about their usage. He or she would only using nicotine when working out but never any other time. The reasoning was that nicotine helps in habit formation while active in one's system. So, hopefully the brain would crave working out because it would associate the reward of nicotine with working out.
I do not know how it turned out, but I thought that was an interesting idea. What if nicotine could be used to aid in forming healthy habits, and once the habits are established, nicotine could be weened out?
Do you think nicotine has any kind of similar effects for you?
He says it's effective as a treatment for ADHD, but less than traditional stimulants, more prone to addiction and side effects.
Also, despite the rest of the discussion in this thread, nicotine ITSELF is carcinogenic, regardless of the way it's ingested. Not something you want to take long run recurrently.
That has never been proven conclusively, even with hundreds of studies attempting to do so. At best (if one wants to assume it is a carcinogen), there's some plausible mechanisms where the contaminants/metabolites of nicotine (like NNN) can cause cancer, but there's zero evidence that consuming nicotine in a pure form and without pyrolysis (i.e. not e-cigs) causes cancer.
Heart disease is much more plausible: nicotine can raise blood pressure, narrow arteries, and increase pulse, like many other stimulants. Whether it has uniquely dangerous CVD risks compared to other stims is also far from conclusive.
I then disclosed that I used nicotine products when I applied for some life insurance. They wanted to put me in the smoker category, I had to spend time with them to explain I never smoked in my life, and the nicotine patches were not for smoking cessation, but just to improve focus.
Nicotine is a great drug that the world largely insists of using an awful delivery method for.
If you can find the right dose/form then it really does have a boost to your brain, but my experience with this sort of thing is sort of like putting NOS in your fuel, it doesn’t matter if you can accelerate fast most of the time, because most of life is about driving safely and consistently at a steady speed and sometimes you can get ahead by speeding up and going through a yellow light to avoid a red, which the NOS can help with but usually burning NOS all the time is just an unnecessary expense. And you don’t want to have something like nicotine withdrawals slowing you down when you’re hitting a yellow like my interview which was a disaster. Having quit amphetamines, coffee, and nicotine multiple times, it’s not that bad, but it’s still a hassle and there’s never a good time and you’re better off eliminating as many hassles as you can from your life imo.
I definitely think the more addictive than heroin line is likely not accurate for nicotine itself but I’ve never been addicted to heroin so idk. I actually still think about starting it up again sometimes even though it’s been 15 years since I quit, maybe 3 since my last lozenge, but overall this experiment for me is concluded and nicotine is something I’m better off living without.
It is approximately 35 times more addictive than Heroin, and has an LD50 so lethal the contents of a few packs/mg of smokes would kill most adult users if they took it all at once.
Due to the intended role in nature, humans also use the compound for its mutagenic properties, and increased lethality in insecticides.
People are foolish, and addicts are experts at rationalizing self-destructive coping methods. Smoking/Vaping is primarily considered a disgusting habit in many western culture now, but is still plaguing the poor of many countries.
Get angry, quit cold turkey, and stay angry for 3 months... Then tell others to switch to rage-o-hol if they don't want skin like a dried out pear later in life.
I am sure people that generate 94% well structured LLM nonsense... also assume the side effects on their sites reputations will be negligible. The content makes it sound like a psychopath wrote it by the way. lol
Keep well our there, =)
I stopped reading after this part. I’m sorry, but passing off decades of research as “to some degree” when it’s been found to be as addictive as heroin. [0]
So it’s completely asinine to say “to some degree”. By all means, go chew some nicotine gum, you’ll be wanting more in an hour. Next thing you know you’re eating a pack a day, for 30 years, until your arteries hardened and you block your heart. All for a pick me up in the evening. Take a nap.
[0] https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
It goes on and on. The author is ignorant.
I use it only rarely, maybe once every 3-4 weeks when I'm feeling particularly fatigued but must deliver. I always find it really beneficial, and often find myself in a flow state - which, now in my 40s, happens very rarely these days.
> Nicotine is highly addictive.
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-n...
> Is nicotine addictive? Yes.
---
If nicotine wasn't addictive, why would people find that nicotine patches or nicotine gum helps with withdrawals from various tobacco products?
And nicotine is addictive.
Let's take it from the article instead:
> like all stimulants, nicotine may raise blood pressure somewhat, and is addictive to some degree, but the risks do not appear much more strikingly harmful than caffeine or modafinil
And:
> My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability
I'm not criticizing the article, I'm disagreeing with the statement "nicotine is not addictive". I wouldn't have commented to disagree with a statement like "nicotine's addictiveness is exaggerated because it's conflated with tobacco's addictiveness", but that wasn't what goodluckchuck said
but it's worth noting that caffeine dependence is pretty common.
Is smoking addictive? Absolutely, but not because it contains nicotine.
“additional work since 2002 has clearly shown that nicotine alone does have some addictive properties”
And, frustratingly, they point out that addiction effects can’t be parsed out using smokers because of the confounding effects of other chemicals present in tobacco yet they quote a study using smokers to support the non-addiction claim.
Because of the vessel constriction is stops healing in the body as well all the way to your bones dealing with microfractures and remodeling.
That said, Ill have the occasional cigar.
Studies of snus users have indicated increased risks of cancer in the mouth, throat and gastrointestinal system but have not been conclusive as to how. There's also a newer type of snus not made from tobacco, with pure nicotine as a separate ingredient, but it has been studied much less.
Nicotine is still widely considered harmful for the cardiovascular system though. I've had two surgeries this past year and been told to not even chew nicotine gum for a week before because of how nicotine in my system could lead to complications.
My best interpretation is that nicotine itself probably isn't the-worst-thing-ever if it was restricted to occasional usage, like having a beer on the weekend.
It's probably not a good idea to make a habit of though like with coffee.
There's a theory floating around that it may help with long-Covid symptoms, but there's not a lot of evidence. This may be in part due to the general opposition towards tobacco as extremely unhealthy.
I only heard of this because a neighbor says using nicotine gum restored her sense of smell.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9845100/
Again, anecdotally I had a relative, very heavy smoker, who got Delta and had very mild symptoms. She's 80 and in pretty poor health. Others younger in the same household had it much worse.
https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1322...
You don't taste it much unless you consume beer/coffee/water at the same, but if so the right brands and combinations can be quite pleasant.
They also make menthol ones.
Without knowing more about human physiology, this physiological description is a boogeyman. Someone could describe the physiological effects of eating lettuce while making the same claim about said effect and it would be obvious to a layperson as nonsense only because they know the topic. It’s not ridiculous to think this is possibly harmless in certain contexts.
Why? Because it increases blood pressure?
That's a problem if it's chronic and severe, afaik a milk vasoconstrictive effect isn't going to kill you.
> Maybe both aren't great for you?
Maybe? You are the one making strong assertions about vasoconstrictors. Maybe you should take this opportunity to challenge your beliefs on this by digging into scientific literature.
Also, "aren't great" is such a softening of your original opinion "just terrible". Why argue for your ignorance when there is actual scientific literature?
Why do so many people like it?
My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.
I come from a country (Macedonia, ruled over by the Ottomans for more than 500 years. The Ottomans liked their coffee) where every going out with friends is centered around coffee. So when people want to hang out, they never, ever, say stuff like "Hey, let's hang out", but always "Let's drink coffee" (I understand people in the civilized world, people say stuff like this too to hang out with friends, particularly in America (I'm not familiar with Western Europe as I haven't lived there, though I assume its similar to the US), but not like they do here, and the surrounding regions.)
And when you do go out to hang out casually with friends, it's always to a fucking cafe because they want to get their daily dose of caffeine in, because they're totally not addicted to it.
(The overwhelming majority of people here go to cafes every day to drink coffee with their friends, who also drink coffee. It's become something like a ritual for them at this point.)
When I hang out with my friends in a cafe, naturally as their sacred ritual insists, and I order anything other than coffee, which I always do, other than those 2 times, they look at me like I've just committed the mother of all sins.
I apologize for my off-topic rant, but I had to get it off my chest.
maybe you have something like that going on with coffee.
i'll say i had no interest in coffee until i tried it in my early 30's and really enjoyed it, though i found the caffine too strong. now i drink it every day (smaller cups though.) point being, i wasn't made to like coffee at a young age, and i've liked it ever since i started drinking it.
Daily coffee drinker here. Maybe I'm in the minority but I really enjoy the taste (strong espresso without sugar/milk) and really dislike the caffeine content (always prefer decaf, if available).
I have a theory that humans like _complexity_. I’m pretty sure I didn’t originally like coffee (or e.g. scotch), but I do now because part of my brain really enjoys analyzing the flavor.
It’s a different enjoyment than e.g. donuts or bananas, which just ‘taste good’. Coffee (and whisky) ‘tastes interesting’ to a degree that overcomes the initial harshness.
So GP is sort of correct for the most basic interpretation. They’re just not appreciating that enjoyment and liking are not always straightforward.
The behavior of a certain segment of the population with regard to coffee looks a hell of a lot like the stereotypical addictions to drugs, including just ending up in bad shape. Totally anecdotal of course but “caffeine in large amounts bad” aligns with a lot of human behavior.
Coffee has a significant amount of antioxidants and Is the most significant source of antioxidants for many people. Even decaf coffee has health benefits.
> including just ending up in bad shape
Not sure what you mean by that, I'm not aware of people ending up on the streets because of caffeine.