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Comment by dalbasal | Hacker News Reader

So it sounds like the action isn't about particulars, at least not at this point.

They are describing the dispute as being about general principles afaict. That Tesla should accept the "swedish labour model" in general. They emphasize that it's an non-disruptive model and good for business.

This stuff is all context(that I don't have. Otherwise it's just a generic "unions or not" debate unrelated to Tesla, Sweden or 2023.

That said... US companies seem at aeas with these sorts of issues in Europe. In china, companies either stay out or bite the bullet and play by Chinese rules.

In Europe, especially around labour issues... American companies seem to always "rebel." It's as if local labour laws just aren't taken into prior account... and companies are caught surprised by the inevitable.

This doesn't really happen outside of Europe, nor for non-labour issues like environmental regs.

What is this? How/why?

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It's interesting, I've started seeing job ads in Sweden where you are expected to setup your own company to work for a US-based company with US-style PTO. The salary looks bigger than what is typically offered by Swedish companies but that is because not only do you have to work more, the company you setup will also have to pay the quite steep payroll tax (at ~31%) that most employees are not familiar with (as it's paid by the employer on top of your salary before personal taxes).

The law in Sweden dictates that a company must give its employees at least 5 weeks of vacation of which at least four weeks consecutively some time during June, July and August.

This is really insidious as it looks like you'll be earning a lot (but you won't) and it's hard to sue yourself for only giving yourself two weeks of vacation.

It seems very odd that the government would dictate four consecutive weeks at that time of year. Why do they get to decide when you should work or take the bulk of your holiday?

You're not required to take it then, but it's your right to take 4 weeks in this period if you want to.

The government doesn't dictate when you take your vacation. They only dictate that if you want four consecutive weeks of vacation during the summer no company is allowed to deny it. Your employer is however allowed to say that you get your four weeks any time during that period. Most people typically vacation in July so the whole country basically closes down then.

>It seems very odd that the government would dictate four consecutive weeks

Because summer vacations are part of the culture, and considered important. That rule allows families to take long holidays together, with other families, etc.

I realize that it's a foreign idea... but this is a foreign place.

yeah...

Honestly, I think governments in some places (Sweden certainly) should just formalize these practices and make them easier and more transparent.

Work is getting international. There is value for Swedish workers and the economy here. Companies (even with good faith) can't deal with unlimited jurisdictions directly.

If it's formalized, it can be managed.

For some countries (Eg France) it would probably too hard or conflicting. For sweden... why not?

Free choice… how terrible!

BTW, I’m a Swede with my own company looking for deals like this. Where did you find them? :)

I found it on LinkedIn, specifically targeting Swedish SWE ASFAIR but do you really want to work for $50/hour? That's less than I pay my carpenter and it's what $100000/year boils down to when you have to work 50 weeks/year.

The ad said prominently $100000/year which sounds pretty ok for an SWE salary in Sweden, but then if you read on you realized that you needed to start your own company and your company would be paid $100000/year which is quite a big difference. That's my main objection to these types of ads, if you don't already run your own company, chances are low you are familiar with the payroll tax and other costs that comes from running a company which will eat into what you may initially perceive as a good salary, only to end up working more for less.

In my experience as self-employed, it's not that hard to find Swedish companies that pays at least twice the hourly rate and then you can have much longer vacation and still earn more!

True. That’s not the level of compensation I’m looking for.

Some companies absolutely try it for environmental regs, too. I think what you're possibly seeing here is that where a multinational tries labour abuses, the response is typically very messy and public, whereas only the very most extreme _regulatory_ offences will be particularly publicly visible (typically where the company tries to defy the regulator after being caught red-handed). More commonly they'll be told what they need to fix and possibly fined.

Sad the same isn't true in the UK where amazon is happily abusing the spirit (and perhaps also the letter - IANAL, don't sue me) of our already weakened labour laws.

There is nothing illegal about operating without a collective labour agreement in Sweden. For example, I’m born in Sweden and have worked here for 20+ years and I don’t think I’ve ever had an employer with a collective labor agreement. Among tech startups and smaller companies it’s quite rare, and when I’ve worked for larger companies I’ve incorporated and contracted, largely to get away from the negative effects of unions and job security: absurdly low pay.

I didn't mean to suggest it was. The article/union didn't either, and I was just commenting on their position.

That said... Unions are prevalent in sectors. My point is that Tesla knew this was coming. They are not a social media startup.

Premising an investment on "bugger that" is childish. Plan for it however you want, but leaving it out of the plan is silly.

Does Tesla have a chance/way of operating in Sweden without collective bargaining?

> Does Tesla have a chance/way of operating in Sweden without collective bargaining?

Sure it does. It just has to survive the “sympathy actions” from many of the other unions. As I understand it many of the actual Tesla employees refuse to go on strike.

Oh now I understand what this is. Swedish have a standard of how fast you work MTM and others have as well. I bet Tesla doesn't want to follow that and want people to work much faster.

So, some average speed of worked might be MTM 90-100, but in Sweden is like 70, because studies show they get injured much less. And if you see videos of workers, they appear to work like in slow motion.

This might be one of things they have dispute about.

Because the various European countries are US Vassal states and treated as such by US companies.

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