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Comment by weweersdfsd | Hacker News Reader

I have a 2011 Thinkpad T520 which still works fine, upgraded it to 16GB of RAM. There are high quality Windows laptops out there, but of course they cost as much as a Macbook.

I'm okay with laptops being sold with 8GB of RAM, but I'm not okay with artifically shortened lifespan caused by lack of upgradability. Manufacturers should be regulated to force them offer upgradeable RAM. I don't care what new technological innovations that may require to offer same speeds as current soldered RAM does, it's simply the right thing to do.

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>Manufacturers should be regulated to force them offer upgradeable RAM.

Disagreed. You can't make RAM upgradeable and have unified memory architecture that makes Apple Silicon good. Let's not regulate technology like this.

There were studies done that showed most people do not upgrade their RAM/storage even though they could. They just bought new computers. I can't find them now but you could probably find them if you dig around.

> You can't make RAM upgradeable and have unified memory architecture

Silicon Graphics did it in the 90s, x86 laptops do something similar but it's not true UMA AFAIU mostly due to software / graphics API limitations.

> that makes Apple Silicon good.

Good interplay between CPU and GPU, the major advantage of UMA, does nothing for raw CPU performance. What I find attractive about Apple silicon is that it has very high performance, high efficiency CPU cores. Nothing to do with UMA.

Soldered RAM can be somewhat higher speed and lower energy than replaceable, I think that's the main real advantage. Still, I wouldn't want it.

>x86 laptops do something similar but it's not true UMA AFAIU mostly due to software / graphics API limitations.

They don't. They pre-allocate a portion of the memory to the iGPU and the CPU can't access that memory. It's not nearly the same unified memory we're talking about.

>Good interplay between CPU and GPU, the major advantage of UMA, does nothing for raw CPU performance. What I find attractive about Apple silicon is that it has very high performance, high efficiency CPU cores. Nothing to do with UMA.

I didn't imply that unified memory is the only thing that makes Apple Silicon good. Of course everything else has to be good too. But unified memory is a big part of Apple Silicon. Furthermore, going forward, UMA has real advantages over non-UMA architectures for LLMs.

> They pre-allocate a portion of the memory to the iGPU and the CPU can't access that memory

I don't recall the details, yes there's a BIOS setting to assign memory to the GPU, but that doesn't actually limit the memory used by the GPU. With any current OS and driver, the actual amount of memory used is set dynamically at runtime. The rest is as I said an API (OpenGL / DirectX pre 12) limitation.

https://docplayer.net/88302897-Memory-management-in-vulkan-a...

Page 20:

Memory types: AMD APU

● Memory is really unified – all heaps are equally fast.

Meaning the application can allocate a buffer on such a heap, load/generate some data into it, and "hand it over to" (just means promise not to change it concurrently without notifying) the GPU. No copies, the GPU can now use it. [In contrast, different memory types on non-UMA systems are best for uploads (to GPU), downloads (from GPU), frequent use, one-time use... of buffers]

So, what's left of Apple's UMA advantage is, I don't know? Maybe a unified cache. Not a big deal, graphics working sets are much larger than any L3 cache. Oh, and marketing language.

> Soldered RAM can be somewhat higher speed and lower energy than replaceable

Can we have one piece of soldered RAM and one slot to add more RAM later on though? (at the cost of possibly unmatched speed and other stuff that happens when you mix and match RAM as you like)

You can. My Thinkpad T14 Gen1 AMD has that. I'd prefer two sticks over soldered + stick. Also, memory bandwidth is usually kind of crap unless you add that memory stick in the slot. Typically 25-40% (GPU) performance difference in games between stick and no stick. At least the 16 GB -> 32 GB factory upgrade was cheap, they can't charge crazy prices because people would just buy the RAM separately.

> Manufacturers should be regulated to force them offer upgradeable RAM

Or just don't buy LUXURY Macs. Yes, they are luxury goods, they are Louis Vuittons of the laptop world.

You and a bunch of people don't buy Macs with 8GB and complain a lot and Apple will start selling them with 16GB.

But this will never happen because people will keep buying Macs because of the panache and swagger that owning and using a Mac give them.

Bizarre bitterness. You really think nobody is buying Macs on their merit?

Maybe you're European and apple products cost a lot more where you live?

In the states, base model MacBook Airs are frequently ~$800 on sale.

You can get an official refurb MacBook Air or Pro with 16GB/1TB for ~$1300 from Apple's website right now.

Those machines are priced competitively when compared to Dell XPS, new ThinkPads, etc.

They also have much better battery life, screens, and overall build quality compared to those machines.

Also MacOS is, for all its faults, normie-accessible unlike Linux and ad-free unlike Windows.

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