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Comment by denysvitali | Hacker News Reader

It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether?

Leaving aside for a second the fact that now tipping is basically asked everywhere (even at automated machines) - as an European I consider it an extremely stupid trend. If you're "forced" to tip, then it's not a tip anymore.

The concept of tipping, at least in Switzerland, has always been to show gratitude for an *exceptional* service. I totally understand the situation in the States, where the tip is basically the employee's wage - but this shouldn't be the case to begin with.

It shouldn't be considered rude to not tip the service was good / OK. Employees / waiters should be paid adequate wages regardless of their tips - in the end this is why the food in a restaurant is so expensive (compared to cooking at home).

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Tipping is not quite everywhere, Australia and Japan come to mind. Tipping boggles my mind as it is such an obvious manipulation of both the customer and the employee, by the employer.

Don't make it my job to figure out your financials, I am just here to eat. Price your service properly and pay your workers.

I understand culturally Japan is different, but what is to stop Australian business owners from shifting the burden of paying employees from themselves to Tippers?

Minimum wage requirements as I understand it, the current national minimum wage here is 23.23AUD or 14.73 USD per hour, plus 25% loading for casuals, plus 11% super annuation (basically mandatory 401k the employer pays), and 1.5-2x pay for odd hours or weekend work (depends on a few factors which rate you get). These are upheld by the federal government so it's a pretty broad and effective set value in the employment market. You wouldn't get far trying to pay less.

Some US states are around that recently which is cool to see. There is also a culture of fairness or "The Fair Go" in Australia, which puts a bit of pressure on working conditions in the right direction.

Not perfectly applied and not true for every business of course. There is still exploitive businesses who will take advantage of international students and other people in tough spots for cash in hand work or through wage theft (work without pay, not supplying correct breaks etc).

In New Zealand pre-covid the restaurant industry were subtly trying to introduce tipping especially in places American tourists visited.

I remember seeing an 85+ year old kiwi shaken down by a very pushy waiter.

When tourism ended during covid it seemed to be rolled back. But once again cruise ships are rolling into our ports I expect to see it pushed again.

Kiwis are quite resistant to the idea. When staff are friendly, and they usually are even at somewhere like McDonalds, they are being genuine and have nothing to gain.

I've noticed this in Auckland for many years, in tourist 'prone' places, but never in person - it's always on the eftpos machine. I haven't noticed it getting either better or worse. I always refuse - and tell people that "we don't want tipping to become established here."

I've never seen that in NZ and I travelled the South Island in 2020 just before COVID hit (and nearly got stuck in an Airbnb for lockdown). Nowhere I remember was asking for tips other than the usual tip jar by the till.

I have noticed last time I went to the SI that many of the cafe's and restaurants are passing on card fees, but those on the NI are not. That must surely be targeted at tourists.

People are innumerate/irrational and cannot understand the difference (or lack thereof) in pricing at restaurants that do not accept tips. See [1].

I've become convinced that the only way tipping is going away in America is if it is made illegal.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHKMovMWaQ&t=149s

You are absolutely right. It's a collective action problem in extremely large cohorts (regional/national populations). As such, it can probably only be realistically solved by legislation banning the practice. Individual action on the issue is ineffective and victimizes the wrong parties.

The good news (?) is that tipping in the US has strange sociological effects that make it a good target for legislation. It has been found that various groups are more or less likely to A) leave a tip and B) receive a tip. That makes it pretty clearly a discriminatory practice.

I lived in Switzerland for 6 months and being originally from the US I tipped a server at a restaurant reflexively by leaving money on the table. The server picked it up and brought it back to me before I left and said “This is not necessary, I get paid to work here.” Being the typical clueless American I was stunned. But I learned over time that just as I would not tip my accountant, banker or lawyer - or plumber, carpenter or mechanic that in this case here was another person I received a service from who did not need “charity”.

Yes, most likely it's because you tipped "too much".

When the service is outstanding, we tip ~5$ (or simply round the amount). I have rarely seen anyone tip more than that.

On top of that, if you really have to tip, you tip in "average" restaurants as tipping in luxurious ones is extremely odd.

Where I live (New York), plumbers, carpenters, electricians and other contractors absolutely expect to be tipped. I’m not originally from the US, but I don’t get the impression that this is a new practice.

That is insane, I had not heard of that when I lived in NYC, but I also did not hire anyone to do that kind of work.

I’ve seen more and more places just include an obligatory 20% service charge. Should that just be priced in? Yes. But I think it’s a baby step in the right direction.

The thing is that the food price (e.g: menu item) already includes that - so there shouldn't be a tip to begin with.

IMHO they should add a mandatory 20% service charge _after_ they discount all of the menu items by 20% - or simply get rid of the tip entirely.

Yea, just price it in to the goddamn food or service. There is no difference between a $10 burger plus $2 obligatory tip and a $12 burger with no tipping. EDIT: It's not the customer's job to pay a company's payroll.

The problem is that they sell a 12$ burger and the 2$ doesn't go to the waiter - instead they ask you to pay 14$ to compensate for this

Then make the burger $14 and give $2 to the waiter internally.

I have just came from London and have witnessed this in plenty of places there. Normally I would tip around 10%, but I'm more happy with this system, even if it's 20%.

If they decide for you and ideally print up the amount in the menu then it's basically pricing it into the food which is how it should have always been.

I hate that even more than tipping. Just hike the prices by 20%, and I might come back a second time. Hit me with a surprise 20% surcharge, and I surely won't.

It’s always put on the menu

Eh, that's better than nothing... but it's still pretty dishonest. Just hike the prices, don't make me calculate.

> It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether?

Yes, I'm all for it. But it would easier to do during times in which service workers aren't just barely scrapping by, and had more negotiating power.

Yes, it's easier said than done. I've been recently to the states and I've never tipped less than 15% - even when the service was bad (40 minutes waiting for the waiter to get our order).

The situation is pretty bad, and I feel bad for who's working in that field :(

This is a big misconception - servers make way more with tips.

Here's a reddit thread [0] to give you some perspective. They're absolutely right, why would they take minimum wage when they can make 50-60/hr.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Serverlife/comments/14fl21y/servers...

Wow. Thanks for posting that. This thread was an eye-opener for me. The sad part is that waiters aren't doing as bad as I imagined (at least on that thread), but cooks are. And you cannot tip the cooks.

So, if we stop with the tipping culture and the menu items prices increase, the problem would be solved also for the cooks that will finally make more.

When I worked in bars/restaurants, I made way more with tips than the minimum wage for my state. Even as a male bartender who isn't particularly funny or hot.

I worked for it though. Busy nights busting ass, dragging cases and kegs of beer up flights or stairs, making drinks for the whole restaurant while providing full service to bar guests, etc.

I definitely wouldn't have gone into the industry if there wasn't tipping. The stress isn't worth it.

That said, I don't mind leaving a buck or two for fast food/coffee shop workers. I don't think it should be mandatory, but the option should be available.

Eh most workers prefer tipping as they can usually make more with tipping then they can with an increased wage.

The real problem is where tipping is now demanded when no customer service is given or before.

The real problem is that minimum wages are too low. If you make more in tips than with your wage - there is something conceptually wrong.

I understand this is the norm in the States, but in Europe this is definitely not the case (as far as I know).

States like california have a comparable (if not higher) minimum wage and require the servers to be paid at least the minimum.

I guarantee you, if european servers had a chance, they too would try to charge tips as much as possible because they do make way more with it.

Europe and the States are culturally different - servers in Europe don't ask for a tip on the receipt. Actually they don't ask it at all since it's not a thing they do expect.

The only way for them to increase their chances of getting tipped is by... providing an outstanding service - which is how tipping should work. Something exceptional deserves to be rewarded

Or when the tip is requested before any service has been rendered. Delivery apps are the worst at this - I had a bad enough experience on one delivery that I reached out to support to reduce the tip.

But realistically I'd rather it just be built into the price.

For this one the easiest solution is to always tip 0% in the app, and tip in cash directly.

This is the only way to be sure that the money you're tipping are going directly to the rider.

My understanding is that orders get picked by drivers somewhat based on tip amount.

Which app do you use? Uber Eats (in Europe at least) ask for tips _after_ the delivery.

If they do it before, then I agree with you, it's totally stupid

Doordash, and they ask for it before, and then ask if you want to increase it afterwards (with no option to decrease it).

Ten years ago I would have been against you but today I admit that tipping has gone too far and more than that the practice should be stopped altogether

I genuinely enjoy tipping at places that provide a service over an extended period of time. I've had a golf lesson where the guy stayed 15 minutes over to show me some pointers, I've gotten haircuts where the dude takes his time to do it right and is a pleasure to hang out with. Tipping in those scenarios feels like I'm rewarding awesome services.

95% of tipping scenarios aren't that, and it's gotten out of control.

I agree, but only if it truly is voluntary and for someone going above and beyond. Right now there isn't much difference in tip between an okay and a great experience.

Yes, that's "exceptional" for me. If someone really goes an extra mile without expecting anything in return - they deserve to be tipped.

The key word here is deserving it - if it becomes almost mandatory then it's not exceptional anymore

> I've gotten haircuts where the dude takes his time to do it right and is a pleasure to hang out with.

Wow. I always tip for haircuts, but I’ll tip around 50% if the person is just down to business, efficient, and gets me out of the chair quickly. I’m happy to talk to people to make their day more interesting, but left to my own devices, I'd rather just have the quiet.

So basically I’m seeking out and rewarding the opposite behavior than what you are. I can only imagine the whiplash barbers and hairdressers must feel.

I'm for doing away with the practice. Not all states have a lower tipped wage. But we are still culturally expected to tip.

> It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether?

What does the average tip-receiving worker who isn't a bartender/waiter/waitress look like wage wise?

Probably $14/hr base salary, get a split $20 worth of tips a night

Say you work 6 hours a night. $104 -> $84 is like getting a 20% paycut.

Reworded:

> It can sound controversial, but can we cut all barista pay/takeout food baggers pay/etc. 20% with no replacement

Do we tip cashiers? Nope

Should their salary be paid with the revenue the shop is making? Yes

Why should that be different in bars and restaurants?

cashier optimizes for speed and efficiency, if it takes more than a couple of minutes to check out the it took too long.

waiter, it varies, but if they spend as much time on the table as a cashier, that is usually seen as poor service.

there are also plenty of businesses with cashiers with tip jars, or tip screens. have been for years. some places, and this gets a bit wild, some places don’t even have tip jars. you just put the extra money in their hand. the employee may ask if you meant it, or may just understand that you did. some assume, but they tend to lose tips over time.

whether tips should exist and whether tips exist are two separate things. loosely coupled at present.

not to say tipping is good, but neither is your argument against it.

Sorry - my european centric view might have skewed my argument a bit. I have never seen a tipping jar in a shop in Europe

no need to apologize, your comment simply made it sound like it was commonplace to see tipping in some contexts. and there are people that believe that tipping does make sense in some contexts.

sometimes the silhouette lines up just right to look the same forwards and backwards. if only more peoples’ views were skewed by a lack of tip jars and a presence of living wages.

if you are seeing tipping more than you have historically, that’s problematic for plenty of reasons.

Just to be clear, someone in that situation does not get a 20% pay cut unless their employer is breaking the law.

What actually happens is that the $20 in tips per night is deducted from the minimum wage that your employer has to pay you. So the difference is in the immediacy of the funds, not the quantity—there is eventual replacement for everybody working minimum wage or lower, as the amount that employers are legally able to screw the person out of reduces.

Of course, immediacy is a poverty problem, the families in this situation are living paycheck to paycheck and cannot easily handle a couple paychecks that are 20% lighter. The same people who complain about tips are usually not people who want to expand social services and safety nets to allow that to change, so it's all a little bit of a complicated kerfuffle...

i’m not talking about waiters/waitresses

i’m talking about smoothie bars, fast food restaurants, etc.

Tipping basically increases pay for busier shifts or higher end restaurants.

I don't love it, but I'm not going to be the one stiffing my waiter.

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