Voters Overwhelmingly Pass Car Right to Repair Law in Maine
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The "Cars can't require a network connection" law: Any external network connection must be disclosed to the user. The car must come with instructions how to disable it, (which must be a user serviceable physical hardware switch, fuse, jumper, etc). All functions of the car must remain permanently operable with no nagging of the user to reconnect, other than an optional initial prompt to inform the user of the change. 0 repercussions may be brought on the user for disabling the network connection, such as 'we can't diagnose/fix your steering because it can't connect to the network' or 'we can't update your infotainment system with your network connection disabled', as those updates could easily be done via the OBDII port.
Hell while we're at it, pass this same thing for robot vacuums, garage door openers, and 1000 other "smart" devices.
This a hundred times. With electronics and connectivity becoming cheaper and cheaper over time, the temptation to stick it to every possible device in order to take control of it and make it obsolete at will just by turning off a necessary service, or simply collect user data is simply too tempting. I see a sad future in which a technology will be invented with the sole purpose of having every possible object, from shoes to glasses, dentures, bags, umbrellas, walking canes, bicycles, hammers, etc. connected and constantly transmitting something somewhere, outside of any control by the user.
1. Wiring diagrams, service documentation, working diagnostic software, firmware blobs must be provided to national archive institution (think archive.org) - and how information is shared is in discretion of this institution
2. In case there are theft prevention or "genuine check" systems (requires keys, codes or whatever) - keys and procedures are given to police (it they job anyway to prevent stealing)
3 Car road worthiness is tested using open (or opened) hardware/computer blocks - car must pass all safety rules and excepted functionality cannot deviate more than 20%. The manufacturer must provide documentation, SDK and calibration procedures, safety tests, but it is illegal to lock functionality by requiring special hardware (if it is secret sauce - provide schematic for alternative hardware which good at least 80% as special). Obvious, it can have proprietary software - it need provide open source alternative implementation.
4. if car is sold, user need to be informed about open hardware and software.
This will just result in a "new" model every year similarly to how (not car) retailers who supposedly offer price matching will often ask manufactures to supply whem with "unique" models of various devices.
> All functions of the car must remain permanently operable
I think this needs to be refined a bit. As phrased, you're just making any features that use network connections illegal.
All functions that a consumer could reasonably expect a car to perform without an internet connection must be operable without an internet connection. All features related to driving the vehicle, including but not limited to steering, braking, using traffic signals, starting/stopping, toggling locks or lights, opening or closing doors or compartments, and other standard features of a non-connected car must not require a network connection.
I think it’s probably OK if automakers want to onboard and support network features like maps or outsourced computation/diagnostics, but bricking everything because the company wants to collect user data and they want to opt out is obviously unethical. It’s important for these regulations to include the fact that they cannot be worked around or stapled on by the auto company post-hoc via firmware upgrades or the like.
Welcome to "the law is vague and impossible to implement" shouts from HN
a network connection is required for the windshield wipers to function. (etc)
Just as planned.
I wouldn’t either. But I don’t think that means I should mandate my preferences be extended to all by banning the damn thing.
Simpler: mandate a network kill switch that doesn’t unnecessarily compromise functionality. (You would have to be creative about anti-theft tracking functions. But this is solvable.)
Something can be functional but useless
Edit, or rather.. functional but unused
You have it on your phone already, the car has no reason to have its own, with its own network connection.
E.g. navigation. Could still work but say cannot load maps. And it could let you download maps to a usb stick if it was actually decent.
No, only features that require network connection. Which is exactly the intended outcome.
Making these sorts of features illegal is unacceptable and short sighted.
What I'd like is to force carmakers to open up the APIs and protocols used to enable these features, and allow me to use my own backend that I run in my own hardware, away from their prying eyes.
LORA or Bluetooth
> remotely start the engine so it's nice and warm inside
LORA or Bluetooth
And yes, cell fallback would be fine if those two fail.
> Making these sorts of features illegal is unacceptable and short sighted.
Please tell me that this is a parody.
Ah yes, the famous ideological bubble of “not being a wealthy American”. Talk about filter bubbles…
The topic at stake are freedom and private property: the right to do what you want with your car, and the right to fully own a car without the manufacturer having higher rights than you the owner (including rights to disable features remotely).
If you think that “I'm too lazy to get back to my car to lock it” is a good argument in that context, there's not much I can do for you.
And “popularity” isn't relevant either, since remotely brick-able and non-reparable shit are selling well too.
https://www.chevrolet.com.br/carros/novo-onix/especificacoes...
Popularity is very relevant when the entire root of this thread is a discussion about law. If you propose laws that ban popular features, you're not going to be a very successful politician.
I mean, that's not so bad...
What if I want to control (e.g. close) the garage door when I am out of Wifi range?
Whatever the case, my point is that a good solution is probably not quite as simple as phrased above.
And either way -- just keep supporting connection over USB and it's not a problem?
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205634
>If your car supports only wireless CarPlay ...
I don't buy the music and navigation arguments in a smartphone-equipped world, but I think a good case can be made for those two.
Of course perceived privacy is more important than something like that for many people here which is understandable.
As for the rest, none of those look like they should be first-party features. "Spotify on the car radio" is a third-party integration to a system that should also work off-line, e.g. for playing music off removable storage, casting from your phone (via WiFi, without Internet), or, you know, working as an actual radio. OEM maps with traffic is something hardly anyone wants anyway, because they universally suck relative to some TomTom screen, or even Google Maps.
https://www.verizon.com/support/connected-car-wi-fi/
https://www.att.com/plans/in-car-wifi/
https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a32814112/cars-with-wi...
Defining a law that allows those features to be turned off and yet disallows "data is broken, heated seats are disabled" is very difficult. After all, heated seats aren't an essential safety feature.
Imagine if millions of cars failed to function properly because they were linked to network. If there was a natural disaster, this may have terrible consequences.
Imagine if that happened to payments.
Every single car I've driven recently (about 20 different models) had a different way of adjusting the brightness and changing the night/day mode. I drove a new, high-spec BMW recently and it wasn't possible to reduce the brightness manually - the German manufacturer knows better than you, supposedly.
Driving assistance such as emergency braking and auto high beam has caused me more problems than not. The UK has narrow streets and many parked cars - the car often thinks you're going to crash in to a parked car. The auto high beams turn off when I don't want them to, and don't come on when I do.
Keyless entry was (is?) a total boon for thieves (hello, Jaguar Land Rover)
In my limited research, I wasn’t able to find a new vehicle that didn’t include infotainment / advanced safety features, etc. I assume this is what the market desires but I personally would just like to have the option to buy a new car that has creature comforts limited to a basic radio, heating and AC. It was a bit mind boggling that the cheapest base model cars come with an 8” touch screen and all kinds of advanced safety features these days.
You seemingly can’t buy just a car these days, it has to be a car with everything added on (whether you want it or not). Kind of like televisions these days, you can’t buy a television that just has inputs, speakers and a tuner.
Again maybe this is what the market desires and I’m just an oddball outlier.?
There is a parallel with low cost flying. Almost every airline in Europe is a low cost one now (and business, class often 2-6x the cost of economy isn’t much of a difference). Why should I be counted as validating their business model when there’s is barely any choice now?
The SAE J1979 standard (or your part of the world's equivalent) already provides for a way to get that diagnostic data which is mandated by law.
However that is not what the general market wants.
Not sure that's the case. You're seeing enshitification here. We keep pretending demand has a lot to blame but when you see voters opinions like this, it seems a lot more like supply side market manipulation. Now one might argue Maine is an exception to the market and blah blah but frankly I've grown tired of the invisible hand of the market argument.
If truly a lot of privatized policy and practice comes to fruition because it's what the market demands then I'm not entirely sure market economics is a great model for humans. There so much consumer hostility and exploitation anymore that I for one am not a fan.
Heck, a lot of them I would love too, but not at the cost of over complicating my car.
Also remember this is HN. What people often want here is not what the average person wants, whether it be cars, phones, laptops, or many other items.
The "Maine mindset" of solve the task at hand, oftentimes even if it does not look pretty or seem an 'official' fix is basically the hacker mindset.
Having not many people in a rather large rural area that gets "all the seasons", combined with generally far lower incomes than many areas tends to put "survival" on the table quite frequently.
Making things work, modifying things to work in the use case you need something to work in, kludges and contraptions is seen across every aspect of living in this state.
Reuse and re-purposing of items (and saving everything under the sun just in case it may be needed -- you should see our yards!) Seems to be THE core mindset.
The weather is... Often less than ideal, but the people and this mindset make living here a pretty unique experience it feels like.
It's not surprising at all that over 85% of the voting population aligned with "yeah, people should be able to fix their own shit" -- because for so many of us "mariners" (edit: Mainers), it's how we make the ends meet and survive until the next Spring.
Also of note, basically the entire state is 100% dependent on car travels. We travel distances for.. everything. In weather.
If your car breaks, etc, you immediately are in a position that needs to be rectified real quickly...
Want incentives do car manufacturers have in doing that if it's not something that most consumers want?
I doubt "collecting/selling user data" is the reason if you could charge a $1k+ premium for a "enshitified" car.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/ecall-in-...
"Any home device shall not require an internet connection without loss of functionality"
here is the next win for common sense: a repairability index. invented in france where they know a thing or two about revolutions
https://grist.org/climate/why-frances-new-repairability-inde...
* what can be repaired by the owner using spare parts, instructions and common tools
* what can be repaired by an independend third party
* what must be repaired by the manufacturer
* when must something be junked and how much of it can be recycled
These are not "opinions". At some point we need to start calling out the criminal indifference of vested interests (and their shills) to the sustainability question
* what kinds of guns can be owned
* what kinds of cars can be owned
* what kinds of speech is allowed
* what proportion of income one can keep
These are not "opinons". At some point we need to start calling out the criminal indifference of vested interests (and their shills) to the freedom question
Sure, start a democracy index by the methods you stated and compile a list and put it somewhere online and I'm sure people would find it useful. Those facts are useful for people looking into the freedoms of different places.
We are talking about repairability here though.
What is the complaint?
I think some confusion here is about "a number" people keep mentioning. Is it a single number that has to be objectively weighted by the facts? Or are we talking "a list of..." or data points which _are_ just facts can people can make their own opinion of?
But assuming they indeed want the "freedom" to have unrepairable cars, what about my freedom to want a market that offers them. Same with a market for cars that are not surveillance devices etc. Are their needs more important than mine?
Political extremism turns people into ugly entitled morons. Alas its not a sad circus to watch from afar. They are taking society down to their sociopathic dark world.
What types of guns you can own is a fact.
What types of components in a phone can be replaced by the user and those replaced only by apple is a fact.
I'm not quite sure what you are implying. Are those not facts?
Probably not? Who said it was or wasnt? Maybe if we had a list of facts about each country we could determine for ourselves, no?
This was my above comment.
I don't think anyone wants a single number "index".
Just give the facts.
Its not called "index of phones by number of parts repalceable" its "here are the facts on these 5 axis about the repairability of various phones" go make your own choice. Its not called "index of countries by gun ownership" its "a list of freedom facts about the country, one of which is gun ownership"
I think they're getting downvoted (note: not by me, I downvote very little) because they've introduced a controversial strawman around a much more ambiguous topic than one about the repairability of mechanical and electrical consumer goods. It is not some sort of flight of fancy to think we could define what is important about repairability for consumer goods and have at least some objective criteria that is communicated to the consumer.
https://spectrumlocalnews.com/me/maine/politics/2023/11/08/m...
Maine is ending up being a microcosm for what is required for the clean energy transition- there was a previous fight about a HVDC line between hydro-Quebec and Boston:
https://www.iberdrola.com/about-us/what-we-do/smart-grids/ne...
(In both cases Avangrid is involved..)
We can watch the ballot questions, lawsuits and bribes play out as various interests try to maintain their rent-seeking.
The verdict is clear: Americans would rather have critical infrastructure owned by foreign companies than by their own government. Which they have pre-existing beef with.
> Do you want to require vehicle manufacturers to standardize on-board diagnostic systems and provide remote access to those systems and mechanical data to owners and independent repair facilities?
It would be clear that this is about on-board diagnostics/computer systems
> These laws require manufacturers to provide the same diagnostic and repair information to vehicle owners and independent repair businesses that authorized dealerships receive. They also seek to prevent manufacturers from mandating the use of exclusive tools or software.
But that’s not what the law text says. As you mentioned the law is about access to the on board diagnostics, but nothing about the rest of the vehicle.
A contrived example would be that the manufacturer needs to tell people how to reset the Oil Change sensor on the car. But has no obligation to share how to actually perform an oil change. No obligation to provide the torque value for the oil drain plug.
So all this law obligates them to do is provide access to the diagnostic computers, but nothing about the actual mechanics of the vehicle. Perhaps this is legislated elsewhere.
But here in California, I can not get the factory service manual for my motorcycle. It is unavailable. Were this legislation to have been passed here, i still may not have access.
Yet that’s what the ballot summary says, “provide the same diagnostic and repair information”, but it’s not what the law as written says.
The requirement should be "all cars with digital systems will come with a on-board diagnostic computer.
The one for saab - pre OBD2 is almost impossible to find. It's called an ISAT and I only know of about 5 on the east coast.
post ODB2 there's somthing called a "TECH2" that GM used across all their lineups. They cost between 400 and 1000 dollars depending on the addons and such.
Instead, they should just build a tech2 into the car's infotainment system.
OBDII is really quite far from solving the problem - unsurprising because it wasn't intended to. It's an emissions standard, not a general diagnostics standard. Common modern fault points like the brake system and SRS are unaddressed by OBDII, and that's without getting into infotainment and telematics.
I miss my 900 Turbo. Tweaked the APC potentiometers for a little more boost :)
The 9000 is a fully integrated system though, there's like 5 or 6 different modules and all sorts of ODB support from TCS to ABS to the HVAC controls, ECU, etc.
now they can't :)
> I can't imagine that they are requiring vendors to provide factory manuals and full technical information for free, for example.
Why can't you imagine that? It doesn't cost them anything, and the car belongs to the owner, not them.
Here is another idea you cant imagine: no copyright protection and no property right on repair manuals.
Just like there is no IP rights on medical procedures and any dicobered laws of nature.
The government is threatening to regulate and require more advanced firmware security. There've been similar issues with emissions devices and security, since modification could defeat emissions standards.
It isn't clear to me that the practical impact of these bills will automatically lead to the rights that I'd want.
Not quite: we surely do want to disable any remote access.
Does anybody know which car manufacturers? I'd like to make sure I never support them directly or indirectly.
BTW, CAN standard is riddled with bugs: https://youtu.be/zi0rHwfiX1Q?si=tl9gfR9R-lCps-UW at 26:18
That's not how the market works.
People mostly buy products on perceived value: price vs performance. Traits that only come into play when something goes wrong -- repairability, warranty, customer service, etc. -- are minor factors in the average consumer purchasing decision because people don't expect things to go wrong. If a given piece of, say, electronics only breaks in a reasonable timeframe 5% of the time, most people aren't going to factor in how easy to fix it is when they decide whether to buy it.
The reality is that most people only factor in a few more obvious variables in their purchasing decision. It's hard to get consumer momentum for less prominent aspects of a product to get manufacturers to change their behavior.
It's the same reason we have basic labor regulations or building/health codes, rather than relying on the market for everything. Consumers are good at applying pressure on companies for some things, sure, but not everything.
There’s an awful lot of collusion behind the scenes. When one company starts a practice that drives revenues, all companies start doing it. Investors demand it. Then you see things like industry wide shifts. Where you can’t get a certain product that existed a few years ago no matter how much you’re willing to spend.
There might a free market, but when consumers are talking pennies and investors are talking dollars, you won’t have a lot of influence on it.
Just look at manual transmissions: far more repairable and DIY friendly than automatic/CVT/robotic transmissions and there are a lot of people who just like to drive them and are not DIYers. Yet these transmissions are almost extinct in new cars in North America.
As to the question of why this requires legislation. Why wouldn’t it? The current market conditions result in an unfavorable outcome.
In what world (except for a communist one) is it the role of the government to put arbitrary laws in place pandering to nische interests like this one? The role for regulations is in ensuring the safety of citizens and fighting mono/oligo-polies (instead of helping them, like in this case).
If this is so beneficial to auto makers, it's curious why they've invested so much money in lobbying and advertising to try and defeat it. Perhaps it's more complicated than you're implying?
History has clearly taught us that socialism doesn’t work - why do we keep forgetting?
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Look up "State Capitalism".
The USA is a capitalist county. "Communism" and "Socialism" are not synonyms for "the government is doing things I disagree with."
The legislation in question clearly falls outside these two categories.
Being able to repair my stuff is obviously 1) protecting me from harm and 2) combating anti-competitive practices.