> refactoring is something that comes with any new work. You don't have to justify it, but include it in your estimates.

Sometimes it's too much work to do ad hoc. Oftentimes people won't go out of their way to refactor. Having the fair discussion can make it real and important.

If the team can't talk about refactoring, it's an unhealthy team. Managers who want to act like maintenance of a project isn't something that should ever be their concern don't deserve a paycheck.

> But honestly, it is engineers job to find that hard to reach balance

This attitude is bullshit. It's everyone's job. High level balance is more of a concern for management. Low level balance is the more of a concern for engineers. High and low level balances can work for or against each other. Management that just pushes their responsibilities down the hierarchy aren't pulling their weight.