Marijuana use linked with increased risk of heart attack, heart failure | Hacker News Reader

Marijuana use linked with increased risk of heart attack, heart failure

newsroom.heart.org

59 pointstakoid43 comments

"The marijuana user's hospital records were coded for cannabis use disorder which can vary from hospital to hospital"

This (among other things) does not give me confidence in the results.

Seriously. You have to smoke A LOT to get this diagnosis.

Why do you assume it was smoking? it implies even non smokers had similar risks.

I think they meant smoke in the traditional sense, as edibles still feel like an uncommon use niche product to many people, especially to those people who have no access to legal recreational cannabis.

Fair. Ingest, let’s say.

“The latest research about cannabis use indicates that smoking and inhaling cannabis increases concentrations of blood carboxyhemoglobin (carbon monoxide, a poisonous gas), tar (partly burned combustible matter) similar to the effects of inhaling a tobacco cigarette, both of which have been linked to heart muscle disease, chest pain, heart rhythm disturbances, heart attacks and other serious conditions,” said Robert L. Page II, Pharm.D., M.S.P.H., FAHA

This implies a link to combustion, not cannabinoids, shame on AHA for sloppy science.

This isn't news and can be inferred from the direct and immediate impacts of Marijuana. It elevates blood pressure and heart rate, stimulates changes in blood hormones, causes vasoconstriction in some tissues and dilation in others.

Even video screening with quack doctors for "medical cards" routinely cautioned people with pre-existing cardiovascular issues against use.

People can debate how big these impacts are or if anyone should care, but I don't think it is reasonable to argue the null hypothesis here.

> It elevates blood pressure and heart rate, stimulates changes in blood hormones, causes vasoconstriction in some tissues and dilation in others.

Jogging?

> People can debate how big these impacts are or if anyone should care, but I don't think it is reasonable to argue the null hypothesis here

People should realize that smoke is always harmful and then do real studies on actual drugs if they want to know something about them. Maybe marijuana is protective, but like everything, not protective enough for smoke inhalation. Probably not but who can say with such counterproductive health associations.

(CNN also has such a headline, but seems to have contemplated the limits of these studies a little better:)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38163554

>Jogging?

Yes, exercise can be a major trigger for cardiovascular events as well, almost stereotypically so. This depends on your health and risk factors. Similarly, getting high isn't the same as going jogging, even if they both elevate your heart rate. How they do it, and what else they do matters. Chemical stimulants aren't anequivalent substitute for cardiovascular exercise.

>People should realize that smoke is always harmful and then do real studies on actual drugs if they want to know something about them

Smoke shouldn't really have anything to do with these findings. We're talking about heart disease and not lung cancer. Smoking cigarettes is a risk factor for heart disease, but that's not because it is smoke, it's about the chemically active compounds in cigarettes.

Heart challenges are always going to raise the short term risks, avoiding all heart challenges the long term.. It's naturally a complex field, but public health didn't respond well to the no challenges approach.

Here is wood smoke, which is one of the challenges you definitely don't want because it is smoke:

https://www.epa.gov/burnwise/wood-smoke-and-your-health

In the first study:

"In a secondary analysis, when coronary artery disease was added to the investigation, the risk of heart failure dropped from 34% to 27%, suggesting that coronary artery disease is a pathway through which daily marijuana use may lead to heart failure."

and

"A limitation of the study is that it relied on data that did not specify whether the marijuana was inhaled or eaten. According to researchers, how marijuana is ingested may influence cardiovascular outcomes."

The second study is _only_ looking at "existing cardiovascular risk factors (high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes or high cholesterol)", so people who already have these risk factors who then _also_ use cannabis.

and

"A limitation of the analysis is that the data is from a large database, which may have coding errors in the patients’ health records. In addition, the electronic health record code for cannabis use disorder may vary from hospital to hospital, thereby skewing the results of the analysis."

Different doctors and systems do different things. (Which is a problem like you pointed out). Having been at one of the largest in ”the” country, I can say the only time anyone would get this added is if they are in some kind of intensive substance abuse program or, yet much less likely, if they are on other controlled substances (think opioids) or if the doctor really hates MJ or if the patient goes into the ER frequently for side effects like cyclical vomiting. Just my minor observation but your points ring true to my ears.

Ctrl+f “exercise” - 0 results

Ctrl+f “diet” - 0 results

The conclusion might be true, but the methodology is junk.

Also I'd say that, with vaping being fairly common today, leaving that out of this study is leaving out a big piece of the puzzle. I can say that when I switched some years back from smoking weed to vaping, my smoker's cough went away in two or three weeks, and my wind improved dramatically. Contrariwise, the other day, on a whim I smoked a bowl the old-fashioned way, and was coughing and had a sore throat for days after.

I'm under no illusions that vaping is actually healthy, but based on experience it seems to dramatically reduce the harm.

I live in an apartment so I only use edibles these days

I personally don't bother with edibles because they just bounce right off my system. I have a huge tolerance on account of being a very big person (I am tall and, on account of being a serious weightlifter, well above average weight for my height) who's been using weed for over 30 years.

I also live in an apartment, and out of consideration for my neighbors, I did get a powerful air purifier, and I only vape in the small room where said purifier is. Everyone seems happy with that arrangement.

Yeah I've tried a vape a few times and I can't smell it at all (I also only use it on my top-floor balcony). I don't like the taste or feeling so I just continue to use edibles. I only started really using cannabis a lot in the last year (got a job in the cannabis industry lol), so maybe in 30 years gummies won't do anything for me either

Try “obesity”

Well, it's smoking so this is not suprising.

Anecdotally from my heart surgeon cousin they see the same inflammation issue not matter the source. There is something about THC that causes heart inflammation. Of course you are right too, smoking anything makes it 1000x worse :(

MJ store employees will sell you on the anti inflammatory merits of the stuff. Oh and you gotta combine it with CBD, CBG, CBN, choose indica and sativa and hybrid and and and… blah blah blah.

My point isn’t to trash the stuff, I know it helps some people but there is so much voodoo magic in this stuff and insider gnostic knowledge.

I exclusively vaoed and got CAD young. Might be coincidence but it was my main vice

How young were you?

Mid 40s

Young? I like your life's perspective (I'm a 36years old kid)

Are you sure it only applies to smoking weed? not for edibles?

That might be true but the study offered no conclusive statement:

I can’t say for sure due to anecdotal etc but I am as certain as I can be cannabis was a big factor in my heart disease

This seems unsurprising? I'm sure you incur similar risks from smoking or drinking alcohol or large amounts of caffeine on a dailiy basis. The thing is, at least in my small sample size of 10 or so friends who use pot with any frequency, maybe one or two of them use on a daily or near-daily basis. Just about everyone else uses occasionally or socially. This study doesn't seem to make any strong conclusions about this usage pattern, and I would imagine that it's no worse than any other frequently used substance. Again, I don't have a lot of evidence for this beyond anecdotal, but I wouldn't take this as clear evidence that recreational marijuana is doing more harm than good.

Very interesting. I have literally the exact opposite experience. Of the 15 or so acquaintances of mine that use it, only one or two I would say use it occasionally, nearly all of them use it daily or nightly (often multiple times), occasionally “quitting” cold turkey for short periods.

Some of these people are highly informed about cannabis, some less so, but I don’t think any of them are under the impression that their use is particularly healthy. That said, it would probably be meaningful for them to see the results of this study.

Speaking from a point of view with N a lot bigger than 15, I'm going to endorse this answer: daily use is common.

The analysis was adjusted to account for individual demographic and economic factors, alcohol use, smoking and other cardiovascular risk factors linked with heart failure, such as Type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and obesity.

But not for method of cannabis ingestion: smoking? eating? vaping? This isn't included and might make a huge difference.

Correlation isn't causation.

I know, the headline only says "linked", but most people skip over that nuance.

The type of person that would use marijuana daily may not be the type of person to exercise much as they should, or eat as well as they should, or maybe they have incredibly bad anxiety..

As someone who smoked for their anxiety, I had bad anxiety caused by THC withdrawal, so I kept smoking or else my "anxiety" came back. Go for 4-6 weeks without any THC and there's a decent chance your anxiety levels drop like a rock by the end. It gets worse before it gets better.

Think about going into the hospital and not having access to your drug of choice.

Think the anxiety might spike, along with the likelihood of a heart incident?

Eh I dont buy it. I know people who smoke daily and eat healthy and excercise often. And vice versa. Is it all that surprising that a drug that spikes your heartrate and blood pressure every time you use it might do damage to your heart if you use it regularly? Seems pretty intuitive to me.

It seems pretty intuitive to me that it could also make your system stronger? Many mechanisms in the body work like that

These are just fairly nonspecific symptoms, much like fever. The underlying mechanism matters.

You can get your heart racing by exercise and you can get your heart racing by drinking ten coffees in a row. I don't think the resulting changes in the organism will be precisely the same, otherwise people would just drink loads of coffee to get fit.

More likely, the observed effects like increased blood pressure are just downstream from some deeper metabolic events, and it is those deeper events that are decisive for your future health.

Stress also increases risk of heart attack, failure

This is not covering up the issue of vaccine-caused myocarditis, before anyone starts on that.

Is it because heavy weed smokers also tend to be sedentary and out of shape or because the weed itself is causing heart failure?

You're likely getting downvoted because you've made the claim that smokers tend to be sedentary and out of shape without providing any credible data to back that claim.

What you seem to be asking is this: is it the weed, or is it the person's health. The study accounts for that, and is able to determine that there's a higher risk when people are consumers of marijuana, all other factors accounted for.

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