Hacker News Reader

> Once you hit start, no timer is present. You have no idea how long it's going to take (turns out, about an hour).

The rice cooker doesn't know either, it will take whatever is needed to take. Short of putting an extensive sensor array and ask you for the kind of rice you put in it, there's probably no way to actually predict it.

On the quick/normal setting, they taste different. My best image would be on black tea: you can use 95C water or near 100C water, one is quicker than the other to fully extract the flavor, but won't result in the same profile (you might actually prefer the quicker one, your choice)

On the UX...welcome to a world where you buy products of different cultures.

If that helps, many people don't actually follow the dosing cup to the letter and adjust the amount of rice and water to their taste, relative the rice we're using at that time after a few tries (at least I do, and so does anyone I talked to), so there is no guideline that would help us.

I'd perhaps compare it to coffee, there are machines doing it all automatically but they taste bland, and the better tools will expect you to know what you're getting into. Rice cookers are as serious business in Japan as espresso machine in Italy, you won't get a high end machine that catters to people who're not familiar with what's going on.

Hmm, thanks for explaining the profiles. I'll try a few and see how they taste.

> The rice cooker doesn't know either, it will take whatever is needed to take. Short of putting an extensive sensor array and ask you for the kind of rice you put in it, there's probably no way to actually predict it.

Why doesn't it know when it's so consistent every time? How does the ninja know? How does this one know when it's closer to 10 minutes? Seems like you should be able to estimate it down to a within a few minutes at start, then refine that estimate if need be. It's helpful to know whether something will take 15, 20 min or 45 to an hour.

Different rice varieties have very different cooking times, also ratio or rice to water also influences the time, so the machine can't just estimate based on weight.

What sensor do high-end rice cookers have that varies the cooking dependent on the rice variety? Steam?

Simple rice cookers have only a 100°C temperature sensor (or switch) that turns off the main element once the water is boiled.

Some rice absorb water very quickly, some rice very slowly, some rice you want more water, some very little, sometimes you want to add other ingredients too. That's more than enough to vary cooking times but not be able to estimate cooking times via the sensor.

Obviously.

My question is what sensor do they use to detect the difference?

I did some Googling but couldn't find any info.

IIRC, it's just temperature (and maybe time). Once the bottom of the pot goes above boiling, all the water has been absorbed/boiled off. Cheap rice cookers then just click over to warm, fancy ones might do something based on time, which can change based on other things like how log it took to come to a boil or how long between coming to a boil and the water finishing absorbing.

Usually the cooker senses the temperature and amount of unabsorbed water left (conductivity ? ai forgot the exact input but Technology Connections had an excelent video on youtube on rice cookers for those interested).

That's enough to manage a temperature curve and predict the last 10~15min of cooking (mine shows a time only 15min before the end), and doesn't require much input from the user.

On the one hand, I can imagine some estimation solutions that all make me think about software installation progress bars.

But on the other hand, if this is a piece of equipment you use regularly, you'll learn pretty quickly how long each thing typically takes, and after that initial learning period, the fuzzy progress indicator is no longer very valuable, and doesn't seem worth investing the engineering and UX time (and resulting higher product cost).

As a software-oriented community, I understand the impulse to throw code at the situation, but this seems like a situation where the cost of doing so doesn't really help very much. And it might actually make things worse, since most users are conditioned to trust/believe the sensors/indicators they see, and a countdown that keeps dynamically changing/jumping/slowing will confuse quite a few people who don't understand why it's a hard problem to solve.

And I think it's worth noting that this is par for the course with most things related to food prep. I'm always looking up cooking times for various things until I memorize the things that I cook often, and this seems like just another case of doing a quick search for a timetable.

Imagine you are making rice in this for the first time and you have no idea how long its going to take. That is ridiculous when you think about it. How do you even plan the rest of the meal assuming you won’t just be eating rice? Take the loss the first time and take 90 minutes to make dinner since the manufacturer didn’t have actually cooking with the thing in mind I guess.

> Imagine you are making rice in this for the first time and you have no idea how long its going to take.

How many times do you use it for the first time? Seems like a bit of an edge case to spend engineering time/add extra parts for.

I don't think this is some insolvable problem. It's literally estimating the time it takes to cook rice, and many other rice cookers (including other Z models, apparently) do this just fine.

It's not some edge case, it's literally the biggest question after you push start.

Imagine you’re grilling steak (or making lasagna, or cooking chili, etc) for the first time. The same principles apply. It’s easy to look this up, and once you do, the problem is solved.

Expecting a cooking tool to hold your hand to this degree doesn’t seem reasonable to me.

I’m almost certain that the manual gives an approximate time range for each mode.

Well, because rice is inexpensive, you.... could do a test batch? Sure, it would add $0.25 or something to the cost of your $100.00 rice maker.

Or you could just put the rice in extra early. It will get done early. But it will still be hot and perfect when you're ready to eat?

It feels like you have a big misunderstanding of rice cookers.

If it's your first time using it, you'll probably read the manual which will contain a table of general cook times. I just used a rice cooker with no screen for the first time and I had no problem with its lack of UI.

> Why doesn't it know when it's so consistent every time?

Because rice isn't consistent.

This is most apparent with certain varieties - a cup of imported Basmati "Royal" brand will take longer and require more water than the same amount of "Three Elephants" Jasmine rice from Thailand.

Even the same varieties produced by different brands/countries will turn out differently in terms of time required. This relates to differences in climate, storage, processing, and other factors.

It’s not a timer function but a sensor that detects signals the rices is done.

Depending on environmental conditions (temperature, etc) and amount being cooked, will vary but the results are repeatable quality rice, rather than a fixed cook time and variable quantity rice.

More expensive but better quality rice.

> Why doesn't it know when it's so consistent every time?

They had a feature (that I believe it's just integrated into every model now) labeled as "neuro fuzzy", decades before the neutral networks boom. I believe it's really just describing hysteresis. So it's doing things based on feedback from whatever sensors they have, but there's no learning from run to run (based on how you actually use the thing).

I also hate its lack of estimated times.

A bit besides the point, and not exactly disagreeing with you, but in my experience (living in Italy for over a year now) most Italians don't own a high-tier espresso machine. They have a cheap aluminum moka pot or a nespresso pod machine or perhaps a lower-tier Delonghi, etc. As a coffee nerd this surprised me a bit. I think part of it is that frequent and mainly fast coffee is prioritized over great coffee. Also, you can go get an espresso made on a god-tier machine at basically any corner for 1-2 euro.

I think most of your points have been addressed, but this one..

> a Zojirushi cup isn't the same as an imperial cup

Indeed, a zojirushi cup is 180ml, while an imperial cup is 284ml. Perhaps you meant a US Customary cup, at either 237ml or 240ml? Then there's a whole mess of other measurements people call a "cup" (118ml, 227ml, 250ml...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_%28unit%29

A bit of history:

> The gō or cup is a traditional Japanese unit based on the ge which is equal to 10 shaku or 1⁄10 shō. Back in the year 1891 it was officially equated with 2401/13310 liters. The gō is the traditional amount used for a serving of rice and a cup of sake in Japanese cuisine. Although the gō is no longer used as an official unit, 1-gō measuring cups or their 180ml metric equivalents are often included with modern premium rice cookers.

* https://greedy-panda.com/2020/06/the-rice-measuring-cup-expl...

> Measuring rice correctly is the key to make delicious rice. For rice measurement, we use a traditional Japanese measure called go or rice cup. A level cup of this measuring cup is 1 rice cup. 1 rice cup equals approximately ¾ US cup or 180 ml.

* https://toirokitchen.com/products/rice-measuring-cup

I had no idea this was the case! Yeesh, that's even worse than I imagined.

Non metric units are a nightmare! I find them terribly interesting, but if you're looking for an unambiguous unit of measure, the metric system is the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile#Comparison_table

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint#Other_pints

I'm totally on board. Hard to convince the other 300 megapeople living in this country though :(

"300 megapeople" cue Attack on Titan theme

Not defending the UX, it’s trash. But it starts showing you a timer when it’s more certain (usually around the 6-8 minute mark). I switched from a zojirushi to a Tiger from Costco, and it cooks the rice in half the time, but it has the exact same issues since it’s Japanese (separate measurement cups, no timer until it’s almost done) and the seals collect a lot more water than the zojirushi did. The rice comes out better and quicker though. I do think my zojirushi was broken because the rice kept getting worse and worse before I replaced it.

Alternatively, as we do in our (mostly) Chinese household:

Put rice in rice cooker. Rinse the rice and pour out water until it isn't cloudy. Add water to the depth of one thumb digit. Hit cook button, then ignore it.

Brown rice, white rice, whatever, all the same.

I'd have to check if we're still using a zojirushi or tiger, or are using a Korean cuckoo now.

> How is it that this brand, with its special measuring cups and precise water lines, can't tell me how long it's going to take, but the ninja multi function pressure cooker could tell me down to the second as soon as I hit start?

Well that one, cus they know people will just eyeball a thumb digit of water. So it won't know until it gets closer to done.

That's the kind of simple rice cooker I had growing up, too, and my parents used similar methods of estimation. It turned out fine and was much, much easier to use.

I remember the first time we got a Zojirushi hot water dispenser, and even then it was like "Wait, you have to push these tiny buttons in what order again?" Whereas the previous cheap one we had a giant, easy to use button front and center.

Maybe it really is a cultural difference...?

To be clear, we don't have a simple rice cooker. We have one of these terrible UX rice cookers with a shit ton of buttons and settings.

But we ignore all that and just do the thumb-level of water and hit the button that says cook (and also says like three other things too, but whatever). We ignore the other buttons.

Zojirushi rice cups are a standard. It’s just not a western standard: https://cooking.stackexchange.com/a/33033

I'm sure it is, but why didn't they localize it alongside the English buttons? At least print it in English on the cup, if not outright tweaking the corresponding water lines in the cook pan and the cooking logic to a more common measurement here.

many of your "complaints" seem easily solvable.

Rice washing is a fairly common practice in cultures that cook rice. You are likely from a culture where rice is not common so the solution is to look it up. My ten year old zojirushi rice cooker came with instructions telling you how to wash rice.

A "cup" is a horrible measure of volume because there are so many definitions. This is clearly not zojirushi's fault.

If you don't know what GABA rice is, may i suggest you look it up? Seriously, if you do not understand what something is, look it up instead of dismissing it as "unfriendly to a westerner".

I think this sort of condescending attitude is what makes products hard to use. I did in fact look all of this up, but that doesn't make the rice maker easy to use.

(Edit)

Believe it or not, yes, I can RTFM too (and did -- it still wasn't very clear, and neither were the online videos). But that's not really the point. I was more curious about why a company that clearly values the design behind its products would make these design tradeoffs. Is it the result of careful user research? Japanese cultural traditions? Thoughtlessness (unlikely?). Etc.

I find Japanese automobile dashboards easier to use than most American ones, for example. Japanese watches hellish to use. Sony anything pretty complicated. Is it a model/product/company/cultural/other factor?

IMO the more interesting question here isn't "How to teach HN dumbass to use a rice cooker" but "Why does this famous Japanese rice cooker company design its interface this particular way?"

This is the most accurate explanation about current Japanese design I've ever seen.

https://www.disruptingjapan.com/the-lies-myths-and-secrets-o...

favorite quote: > So, one thing we learned about Japanese users is that people feel insecure of empty space and people feel insecure if they don’t see everything up front.

you are now moving the goalposts. Understanding how to cook rice is a very different thing from a sony TV remote being complicated. Meanwhile, a sony playstation joystick is among the easiest designs to use.

I disagree that my reply was condescending.

>Rice washing is a fairly common practice in cultures that cook rice.

In the US at least, many brands spray additional vitamins and minerals to increase the nutritional value of rice, and specifically state not to wash the rice right on the packaging.

Because of this, there seems to be a pretty wide split on cultural lines on whether one should wash their rice, especially online.

Maybe it's your model? My Zojirushi came with a single clear measuring cup (which is actually just 6 US fluid ounces), the instruction manual gives a quick explanation of the various modes such that I don't find their presence burdensome, and the displays an estimated time right away (which is nice as some of the cooking modes take wildly longer). I'd never cooked much rice at home because I never got good results when I tried with the stove, and this turned it into a solved problem. I'm sure a $20 model could have gotten me 80% of the utility, but gestures vaguely at overwhelming consumer abundance.

(edit: reading another comment, turns out that plastic cup is one gou which is 6.10 fl. oz)

Maybe! I'd much rather have the simpler model, but their website wasn't very clear about what has what either, especially in terms of UX.

> Reminds me of my old Casio watches

If you ever want a UX example, go out and buy the following:

https://www.amazon.com/Casio-Classic-Core-DW9052-1-Wristwatc...

https://www.amazon.com/Timex-T5E901-Ironman-Classic-Black/dp...

NO NOT THROW AWAY THE CASIO MANUAL

Begin using the G-Shock first, making sure to learn how to do common watch tasks. Use chronometer, change time, set timers/alarms, etc.

Then, after doing that for awhile, trying using the Ironman. Just for kicks, don't read the manual. Attempt the same common tasks.

It's mind-boggling how esoterically-unnecessary Casio UX is.

That first link mention this feature:

“Auto-calendar out until the year 2099, the watch does not have to be adjusted for the number days in month even leap year until 2099”

Amazing! (That they dare list that as a feature, not that it seems to have a bug for 2100, which won’t be a leap year)

>And what is rice washing anyway?

There's an argument that you should wash your rice before you cook it to remove contaminants, particularly arsenic, which is a common soil contaminant.

It also removes starches from the rice, which can result in a cleaner/less sticky pot of rice where the individual grains are better defined.

I would avoid any rice grown in the United States if you’re concerned about arsenic levels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1892142/

Seems like organic rice grown in California is actually lower than the average levels in many other countries?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Arsenic-levels-mg-kg-in-...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187853521...).

I don't think simply washing rice appreciably reduces arsenic levels. It's just to get rude rid of the loose rice flour that grinds off during shipping/handling

Japan stuck in their ways. 150$ Xiaomi smart rice cooker that was comparable to highend Zojirushi had very friendly UI. You can get basics done fine with small on board oled, but a lot of it is behind smarthome app and appliance is soft region locked. An offline high performance rice cooker with good onboard UI... probably one of the Korean brands like Cuckoo but I've never used. SKR knows how to do decent hardware and software though.

Cool, thanks for the suggestions!

The Xiaomi one looks beautiful and simple. I'll have to look for one next time I'm overseas.

The Cuckoo ones still look really complex, though. Was there a particular model with simpler UI?

> a Zojirushi cup isn't the same as an imperial cup

Right, but a US cup isn't the same as a Japanese cup, or a UK cup, or even a US "legal cup" etc.. unfortunately the "cup" isn't a useful unit of measurement any more than a non-XKCD-1179[1] date is a useful expression of a date (T_T)

> why would I want slow rice if there's a quick rice?

Slow rice is better.

> isn't it just a ratio of rice to water?

Yes (and therefore, indeed, WTF (!!!(?!)))

> what if I want quick brown rice? It's not possible.

There are levels to this game.

> You have no idea how long it's going to take

Indeed. Nobody does.

> As much as I appreciate good rice

Do you, though?

> I'd much rather suffer a 10% degradatio... if... controls could be simplified...Does something like that exist?

Yes (but not in/from Japan)

> Do the Japanese prefer having more options to tweak?

Yes

> Is this a broader cultural preference, or just something special about this one brand?

The former; every Japanese rice cooker (and website) is like this, only more so[2]

[1]: https://xkcd.com/1179/

[2]: seems like an infinitely recursive statement, since "every Japanese rice cooker" includes the Zojirushi rice cookers under discussion; however, infinite recursion is actually an explicitly-supported feature of TRON (OS, but that's the O in TRON), which powers almost all Japanese rice cookers[3]

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project

> turns out, about an hour

Um what? That's absurd. Cooking rice should take like 15-25 minutes, 35 minutes tops.

There's more than one way to cook rice.

A lot of the Japanese rice cookers cook it a bit lower/slower than you'd normally do on a stovetop in a pot. The result is usually rice with nicer texture and flavor, but if you're only ever buying the cheapest rice, or value the speed it can be cooked, it's probably not worthwhile. Just stick to the really cheap rice cookers that usually take around 20 mins.

Here's a screenshot from the Zojirushi Fuzzy's manual, it generally takes around an hour to cook any rice.

https://imgur.com/a/pyA6l27