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Comment by Apocryphon | Hacker News Reader

Fascinating to see such an anti-union company forced to contend with a union further up its supply chain.

It's very interesting. McDonald's tried this principled (anti-union) stance in Denmark. But now, they are still there, and the employees are very well compensated.

However, they were able to keep the unionization consolidated away from the home country. So don't worry too much.

> This is why McDonalds workers in Denmark are paid $22 per hour.

https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...

FWIW, I live in a low cost of living area of the US, and fast food restaurants advertise paying $20+/hr here these days post-COVID inflation. Have the European counterparts seen the same increase over the last few years?

I hear you, but... while I don't know the specifc details, I would imagine that the employer pays the government for at least part of these benefits:

> This compensation comes on top of the general slate of social benefits in Denmark, which includes child allowances, health care, child care, paid leave, retirement, and education through college, among other things.

> I live in a low cost of living area of the US, and fast food restaurants advertise paying $20+/hr here these days post-COVID inflation

Nobody actually gets an offer or employment for anything near that $20/hour - the fine print says "Up to $20/hour", and you have to be there for years to get close.

Depends. Where I live in the US 15 bucks with no experience is the starting pay. 20 with a little experience is doable.

Min wage here is like 13 buck an hour

I can start tomorrow with zero experience as a 40 something for $18/hr.

My kid and his friends in their 20s all command $22+ these days for similar work, due to youth and experience.

Not saying it's an amazing wage but these jobs are regularly available to anyone in many areas of the country at the moment.

Seattle’s minimum wage is $18.69/hr, and its increasing in 2024.

There's various expenses present in US budgets that are handled differently elsewhere. Insurance premiums have increased, dependence on cars means gas price increases hit harder in the US than the EU in general, etc. So a comparison of base wage doesn't really reflect reality.

Well, take up comparing base wage with the OP, whose post was intended to make that exact comparison just not with these results. That comparison was very common before wages rose so much over the past few years. I'm well aware of how hard comparison is even in the USA, but I am still curious about recent changes in the EU, given how the system is touted, even here. How is their system responding to similar challenges compared to the one I live in? But instead of responses, I get told I could not possibly compare due to all the complicating differences. Well what was the original point then? I'm likely inclined to agree with OP on policy, for whatever that is worth, but I am still curious and want to understand the details.

I'll note the jump to say "hey don't compare those" only came after I followed OP's implicit desire for me to compare. Unfortunately, that comparison didn't go the way it used to, so now we have a rush to say I shouldn't have done what the OP clearly wanted me to do.

I really wish people stop comparing wages across countries.

Why hasn’t Sweden produced higher paying jobs in other sectors?

I'm surprised the government of Sweden allows a labor union to decide what passes through the country's ports.

You gonna hold a gun to their heads if they refuse?

Whoa hold on, don't want some pinkertons to get all excited.

This is how all governments enforce all laws so not sure why it wouldn't apply here

Because there’s no law against striking.

The US at least has many laws against striking. It's absolutely not a free for all.

Please note that Sweden is not in the US.

It is indeed unusual that a government might support its citizens instead of a corporation that would exploit them.

usually governments just tax or tariff the corporations directly instead of relying on their citizens to extort them physically

What if there are countries where the governments are the people

It’s rare, which is why this audience likely doesn’t understand it vs “you’re not allowed to do that!” You absolutely can do whatever citizens collectively decide, including a general strike or blocking ports.

Not every country has elected to be a slave to rugged capitalism. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

The employees of companies are also people.

Indeed they are.

The unions negotiate fair indutry-wide rates and conditions for the members, not taxes.

Think of it like people having talked about their salary in advance so when they walk into a negotiation and hear a number that's lower than their peers, they can call bullshit and make a take it or leave it counter.

Companies get upset about unions because they're not paying fair pay right now and know it, and if everyone in a trade demands the same minimum rate then they have to accept it.

who runs the ports? labour

Longshoreman unions have an infamous history throughout the world. Even in the USA they have lots of leverage to dictate against things like too much automation.

the point I'm making is that the people on the ground making these places operate are the people that should have that power, and the idea that the government - supposedly the collective of all people in a country - would stand in the way of that for the sake of some capital holders is bizarre

People should have rights sure, but letting unions run ports to the contrary interests of everyone else is not that. I don’t want longshoremen unions telling me what I can buy and not buy.

So you should force them to work for the interestbof everyone else. That's called slavery.

No. I would force competition though. Longshore men don’t want to unload a ship? Fine, they don’t have to work that day. Just hire people from the hall that will? No one wants to unload the ship? Ok, just let the robots do it.

And when you get sympathy strikes? That's how it works in Sweden and what Tesla is facing. First the harbors, then electricians and it'll eventually be the entire country if the don't sign. That's how our system works: solidarity.

Everyone has the right to strike. They don’t have a right to a monopoly in labor however.

Sure, capitalists are welcome to work too ;)

You can buy whatever you want, nobody is stopping you. It would be you telling them what work they must and must not do.

Perhaps the misunderstanding is because those in the US are so accustomed to the power dynamic between employer and employee being one of controller and controlled, respectively. That's pretty much all employment in the US.

If you can for a moment question that base assumption, and imagine a power dynamic in which both negotiation and normal operations is one of equals, then you may see how that dynamic would lead to different systems.

People (government folk) have the power to decide who gets to operate there. It’s a circle of trust called society.

There is no such thing as too much automation. Those dockworkers are just extracting an unfair tax, and inefficiently allocating the country’s labor.

AKA rent-seeking

What would you expect the government to do here if the workers as a group decided not to unload these parts? Legitimately what would the appropriate response look like to you?

Channel their inner LKY and deal with it the way he did.

I do not understand the reference. What/who is LKY in this situation?

Singapore.

I'm assuming it's referring to Lee Kuan Yew, first premier of Singapore:

https://mothership.sg/2017/11/lee-kuan-yew-singapore-airline...

The parent is expressing their affection for a fascist dictator.

From his memoirs "The Singapore Story", Chapter 6, "Winning Over the Unions", on the ports:

> Recounting Britain's prodigal years of crippling dock strikes which led to the devaluation of the pound sterling in 1967, I warned, "If that happens here at our harbour I will declare this high treason. I will move against the strike leaders. Charges will be brought in court later. I will get the port going straight away. The Singapore dollar will never be devalued and I think the people of Singapore expect this of their government." I spotlighted the "selfishness of established labour." Cargo handled by the Port of Singapore Authority in 1967 increased by winning over the unions over 10 percent, but the number of workers employed did not go up because the extra work was all taken up by overtime. This was immoral at a time of high unemployment. I told the union delegates that we must rid ourselves of pernicious British-style trade union practices.

A very interesting book; of course, it's his side of the story.

Singapore as an authoritarian city-state is not a model that scales to the entire world. It is an outlier among outliers and not every country has the blessing of being a parasitic entrepôt, even if other aspiring city-states such as Dubai are trying to copy it.

Singapore obviously had a lot of differences, particularly the PM's past close relationship with the unions, and the early stage of development making it more rational for workers to ride the common prosperity of high economic growth rates instead of squeezing more percentage points in negotiation.

But Sweden can still outlaw selective parts unloading by dockworkers, forcing an all-or-nothing strike, if it wanted to, and enforce such laws.

And I don't know why you'd call Singapore parasitic; they weren't leeching off anybody, other than the British early on.

I’m riffing off of this comment which described Singapore and Liechtenstein as such:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6786275

Bring in workers that would.

Sounds communist.

Make striking illegal. /s

( oh wait, no sarcasm at all - https://time.com/6238361/joe-biden-rail-strike-illegal/ )

Sweden being a member of the customs union, the cars can be brought in via any other custom union state i.e the EEA plus Turkey.

Well, then there will probably be other steps. For example electricians unions blocking any work or maintenance on Tesla charging infrastructure.

The unions collective agreements in Sweden and pretty standardalized and include standard things like pension offsets etc. So not a big bruden for serious companies.

From a company/management point of view it is often something good in the end if in addition employees are union members (I’ve been in this situation myself as a manager in Swedish companies): Say you want to terminate someone, they will get union representation. There will be very little hassle and the process will go smoothly since everyone in the room knows the rules and when the employee gets upset their union representative can help them move forward without unnecessary hassel which would lead nowhere.

“Allows” them to decide what sort of work they are and aren’t willing to do?

They don't, and cars can still come in to Swedish ports... There's just not anyone there that's willing to unload those made by Tesla before the ship has to leave again.

The unions are allowed to strike because Tesla refuse to sign the collective agreement that regulates the use of strikes while the employees in return are guaranteed minimal wage, pensions and so on.

Tesla can sign this agreement any time they want to, but they're choosing this fight while the unions wants regulation. That's on them, not anyone else - and Musk is perfectly free to take his business elsewhere if he don't want to conform to Swedish customs.

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