If you plant milkweed, they will come | Hacker News Reader

If you plant milkweed, they will come

nytimes.com

126 pointsPetiver89 comments

I’m always pleased to see this topic get more attention. Almost everywhere, it’s common for non-native trees, shrubs, and flowers to be planted instead of species native to the area. This is true for residential yards, city land, etc.

Non-native plants are often useless hosts for native insects. So installing non-native plants has the “benefit” of reducing insects, but it also has serious effects on ecosystems and biodiversity.

We need to be more worried about the extinction of insect species. They’re more important than people realize.

If anyone wants to make a (small, but important) difference, do some research to identify important host plants for native insect species in your area. There are usually good, native alternatives for flowers, shrubs, and trees which are equally as attractive. Then, choose these host plants for your yard or garden.

> Non-native plants are often useless hosts for native insects.

The opposite can also be true such that some non-native plants can demonstrate overly desirable results compared to native plants. This is seen with many forms of squash/gourd/pumpkin in North America that results in wider and more aggressive distributions of herbivorous insects that favor those plant types over native plants.

There is also a problem for manarch butterflies when people plant flowering plants they like, but in zones a bit colder than normal, and protect them from frost or replant. They bloom later than the butterflies expect, so they hang around too long on their migration and freeze.

There is a nuance that sometimes what was native 100 years ago simply won't survive anymore because the lack of the previously existing ecosystem. For instance a plant that needs shade and high humidity that is no longer viable because the trees have all been cut down.

In the US, your local Cooperative Extension is a valuable resource for advice on this topic - and many others!

This is random but when I read about the importance of insect specious it reminded me of how this summer we had noticeably less mosquitos where I live. It felt like there were none at all and I spent the whole summer being able to leave my doors open at night. At the same time there was a huge influx of grasshoppers that summer and I think the two are probably connected.

If there is any connection at all, I think it would be a pretty weak one. Grasshoppers don't eat mosquitoes and mosquitoes don't (I think) feed off grasshoppers. However, these critters are quite sensitive to the weather: lots of rain favors mosquitoes and dry hot weather favors grasshoppers. A lot of little critters also have a cycle. Tent catapillars around where I live are on an eleven year cycle. In the valleys of the cycle, you won't see a single one all year. In the peaks, there is enough to defoliate large trees.

Especially if there was a cold winter the year before. I remember talking to an orchard worker who lamented how the frost came early and killed a lot of the fruit before they could be harvested. He said "At least there won't be any bugs next year!" and it really opened my eyes to how these cycles can work over such extreme swings.

native alternatives for flowers, shrubs, and trees which are equally as attractive

Thanks for using plural here. Nothing really wrong with the article, but the focus on single plants is a bit misguided when it comes to biodiversity (and this isn't the only article like that), because it can lead to greenwashing-like 'look I planted X in my lawn and it's good for this amazing number of species so now I'm doing a good thing for nature'.

In reality the worst case is that it is actually a netto negative outcome (bit far fetched, but not impossible, via principles like: insects attracted to your plant instead of another one closeby, your plant in its environment offers zero protection from predation because it's completely out in the open vast wasteland a lot of lawns are; or: insect finds hostplant X, lays eggs, in winter you decide to cut the plant 'becomes in cmes back anyway' and the eggs are lost) and best case it is positive; but it could be a lot more positive if instead of just the plant, you have a healthy ecosystem because biodiversity (and that's not just plants and the flying/crawling things one can see, also the nocturnal creatures, the soil life, etc) thrives on that, not individual species. Just like a collection of trees isn't necessarily a forest ecosystem, a bunch of flowering grassland plants isn't necessarily a proper meadow-like ecosystem.

How to get that is unfortunately too much to explain in detail here, but a simplified system for a lawn for instance starts with not mowing the whole thing every x weeks. Instead do cut the paths you need and treat the rest as patchwork where each patch has a different age like 1 month not mown, 2 months, etc. There's even no need to manually plant things, the native ones will come automatically.

Note that in Germany and Switzerland, Asclepias syriaca (Milkweed) is considered invasive, with a negative impact on biodiversity. Only plant in North America!

Forgot to add, here is the source for the information [1]

[1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gew%C3%B6hnliche_Seidenpflanze

How long from a species being invasive to it being considered native?

Here in Norway it's mostly spruce, pine and birch all over. Surely they were invasive at some point.

The black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) [1] was brought to Europe about 400 years ago [2]. It is considered currently crucial for biodiversity, especially for insects, bees etc. due to early bloom in spring. It also adds atmospheric nitrogen through root bacteria and improves bad (sandy and eroded) soil. It is one of the most important hard woods in Europe these days for outside constructions, due to its resistance against rot, without requiring impregnation.

This is not common, however. Most invasive species shift the balance in local ecosystems and the common outcome is a lesser diversity of species, with more aggressive ones winning. Natural biodiversity drift does not have the same impact, as it occurs more slowly than human propagation of species.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinia_pseudoacacia

[2]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gew%C3%B6hnliche_Robinie#Einf%...

It is also taking over all the native trees. At least in France. There are entire forests (non commercial) of diverse trees that are now only black locust.

Which is great because being an awesome tree for bowmaking, nobody cares if you harvest a few straight stave: On the contrary people will say "Good, you're removing these" :-)

Plus they give excellent liquid yellow honey and you can make yummy perfumed donuts with their flowers.

But yeah, it's a pain to get rid of: even if cut, they will regrow nearly endlessly and their thorns are so pointy and durable that they routinely kill tires...

In the whole EU, not just Germany. Planting, trading or importing milkweed is banned.

Highly recommend clover mixed in grass or instead of grass if it's native to your area. During parts of the day you can watch a giant ecosystem of different types of bees & other insects flying in it.

Ours is softer than grass. It takes less water & there are some great shorter verities.

Only cons I'm aware of is it doesn't hold up to constant hourly foot traffic. Obviously it also attracts bees so if you're allergic that would be bad.

Also gives bunnies and other critters a lot to snack on.

I love my microclover lawn. It's postage stamp sized due to being in the city, but if I had more space I'd definitely love to see a large yard with it.

It's more resistant to dog pee, and it fixes nitrogen so you don't need to fertilize as much (if at all).

I use a "dog park" mix from PT Lawn Seed[0] - they also have a lot of other really neat things like native butterfly seeds mixed and ready to go. I've had great luck just randomly spreading them in small areas and having a weirdo explosion of a mini ecosystem a month or two later. You can even take some of the meadow/butterfly mixes and just overseed a large patio container and have a great time just watering and fertilizing it with no other maintenance.

I've found that you don't want too much clover because it will end up covering less ground when wet/stepped on due to the way it roots and then spreads horizontally - vs. grass that grows straight up. A full clover lawn would turn into a muddy mess if used during non-ideal conditions.

I cut mine high (4-5" or so, and not often) and the number of insects per square foot after a few years is amazing. You can spend a lot of time just staring at a particular spot and discovering more action then you ever thought possible.

My use is pretty high traffic, but if I had areas rarely walked on I'd probably go with another eco mix[1] with more flowering plants to grass ratio.

[0] https://ptlawnseed.com/products/pt-767-dog-park-eco-turf-mix

[1] https://ptlawnseed.com/collections/eco-and-alternative-lawns

Clover has been very appealing to me, and I’m especially interested in the dog park mix as the dog is not kind to our grass. But I have kids, and they like to run around barefoot in the summer. Have you (or anyone else with a clover lawn) found bee/child interactions to be an issue?

In my part of the world, if I'm walking on a clover/grass mix barefoot for more than 20 minutes, I will absolutely get a beesting on my foot.

No one has been stung by a bee due to clover in our yard & shoes are rarely worn which I why I mentioned how it's often nicer to walk on than grass.

Couple important notes from our yard. * Our yard is mowed fairly frequently so when there are no flowers there are no bees. * The bees are only active during parts of the day. Evenings they're usually not out. * In our yard bees are very visible if you just look down. They're mesmerizing to watch. * The clover doesn't cover our entire yard. * We have stepped on wasps but that was unrelated to clover

> It's more resistant to dog pee, and it fixes nitrogen so you don't need to fertilize as much (if at all).

My understanding is that if you want any kind of 'natural' garden, you do not fertilize at all. Independent of whether you plant anything nitrogen fixing or not. Pretty much all gardens are overfertilized anyways which may be a big disadvantage for many natural species.

Can confirm! As someone from the Mediterranean, I can also recommend "Lavandula stoechas". Also known as Spanish Lavender. The honey from these is so good!

(Edit: Non native plants should be avoided!)

Milkweed is great in North America but not so great elsewhere and is often banned.

You should really find out what is native to your area and plant that and stay away from non-native plants.

i can't read the article but i kind of assumed that's talked about in the article?

Common milkweek is banned in the UK and I think the EU, due to the risk it can overwhelm native habitats.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/invasive-non-native-alien-plant-...

https://circabc.europa.eu/sd/a/8dbd637b-6d8b-4608-b2b1-b51dd...

It was pretty dry this summer in the valley of Oregon, and and most plants were dried out or done flowering. I came across a small patch of dogsbane plants (likely Apocynum androsaemifolium, a relative of milkweed and native) on the top of a hill while scouting a harvested tall fescue field. The leaves were droopy[0] but was full of surprisingly fragrant flowers, being visited by a very busy assortment of solitary bees, bumblebees, and butterflies. It was honestly rather refreshing to see. I've since been considering adding it to my yard. Do note, it's called "spreading dogbane" for a reason as it will spread via rhizomes. It also contains toxic cardiac glycosides, like other milkweeds.

[0]: Looked like this http://science.halleyhosting.com/nature/plants/5petal/dogban...

edit Also, here's a good native milkweed resource: https://xerces.org/milkweed/milkweed-seed-finder

Please don't. In Europe milkweed is an invasive species that's toxic to cows, sheep and horses. It's way better for our ecosystem to sow / plant native species.

The New York Times is a U.S. newspaper, and milkweeds are native there.

along with the beautiful Monarch butterfly

The Monarch is found elsewhere, saw them in the Canary Islands and they are found in Spain, and Australia https://monarchjointventure.org/monarch-biology/global-distr...

I was surprised when I saw Monarchs in Hawaii too!

But not all readers are, neither of the NYT nor HN.

So it's good to remind those that the article is only valid for Americans.

And to remind readers that not everyone in north america is American. Geographically, most of north america is not part of the USA.

Nobody needs to be reminded of that. We're not retarded.

Yes they are. A resident of any American continent is American

There are two continents in the western hemisphere: North America and South America.

Right like everyone in New York State is a New Yorker, right? Of Roman being from Rome but could also refer to ancient Romans.

That's what my comment does.

> toxic to cows, sheep and horses

Wasn't that the original rationale for the eradication of milkweed? I remember mid-90s in Toronto when lawns had the "No walking" signs with the smell of freshly sprayed pesticides.

Milkweed used to grow from cracks in the sidewalk, but not anymore.

> Wasn't that the original rationale for the eradication of milkweed?

That's pretty funny considering you have to drive for ~30 minutes out of Toronto to find the nearest cow.

It's pretty clear in the article that they're talking about North America.

But. If you are in North America, and the plant is native, go for it. Furthermore the pods that develop are far from poisonous for people and in fact taste really good. It's like okra that isn't slimy.

https://foragerchef.com/milkweed-pods/

If you are planting milkweed for Monarch butterflies, check to be sure to plant the correct species of milkweed. Some species of milkweed don't have enough calories for the butterflies to complete their trip, and they will wind up dying.

Make sure you plant native milkweed. The exotic kind is not good for the butterflies.

Any recommended resources for determining which milkweed might be native in a given area?

If you're in California, I always recommend https://www.laspilitas.com/

They have a couple nurseries but their website has a lot of good info.

There's also https://www.cnps.org/ and https://theodorepayne.org/

Thanks I’ve been looking for another online supplier.

In Phoenix our botanical garden has information.

Call your local extension from the University of [State]. They have experts that can help you, and probably have programs to supply you with the seeds for no cost.

By “kind” are you referring to a species or a subspecies?

To my knowledge Asclepias syriaca is native only to North America. But there are other plants——most infamously Phragmites australis——where it’s native but there’s an invasive subspecies that is sadly displacing the great cattail swamps. (Sad because a cattail swamp is a huge caloric reservoir. I know I wouldn’t starve so long as we’ve got all those cattails…)

Certainly there are non-native Asclepias species. But there’s also other interesting native species like A. incarnata that makes great cut flowers if the aphids don’t get too out of hand.

Milkweed, goldenrod, and joe pye plants in Michigan will bring hosts of good bees and butterflies to your yard. Even better if you grow all three.

Another tactic (if you don't have an HOA that requires mowing) is to clear any grass out of your yard, spread a variety of seeds, and lay fertilizer and topsoil. Water regularly. Whatever springs up, leave it there, even if it's "just weeds". Two years in and you will have a thriving, self-sustaining wild garden. The weeds can act as a cover crop if you want to plant something else, and many flower throughout the year. You can pluck out the invasives of course, but leave non-natives if they're not harmful. If you're worried about it looking unsightly, once it's grown you can go in with a machete and cut down anything too tall, or take a trowel and dig up specific plants and then replant them in rows or patches. You can make borders, beds of different plants/textures/colors, walkways, etc, all from naturally occurring plants that thrive in your soil.

We're doing something like this, and it's driving me crazy, but anecdotally the soil beneath our biggest Canadian thistle infestation appears to be the softest, most active soil in our otherwise clay yard. It appears as if other stuff might be starting to impinge on the thistle too. It's been more than two years but amazing stuff is coming up.

Anyone else here like to eat milkweed? (Asclepias syriaca)

My favorite way to prepare is gently steaming the flower buds when they are about 2/3-grown. But the young greens and young pods are good, too.

this youtuber [1] has an excellent channel on restoring once-developed land back to native flora. He mostly focuses on the US southeastern region, but it's interesting how explains why native plants are so much better.

1. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCISRiNeM7BACmSGq_dg-UJA

I have planted milkweed all over my property and have seen a huge uptick in good insects.

How much did you plant? I had a friend do it on 3 acres in Vermont and it was like going to the disneyland of monarchs. I was floored by how many butterflies were in that acreage.

That's awesome. Do you have photos?

I was too busy eating wild blackberries unfortunately.

That's legit

You my people

I only have a small yard but there are 8 plants total

I let milkweed grow unimpeded and we already have monarch caterpillars this year after just two seasons. It was awesome!

I first learned about how beneficial milkweed was from a YouTube micro-celebrity Joey Santore whose channel is called "Crime Pays but Botany Doesn't":

https://www.youtube.com/@CrimePaysButBotanyDoesnt/search?que...

Good stuff!

I'm a big fan of weeds. Just let whatever grows, grow. Then selectively weed to remove nonnative invasives. Practice late mowing (by hand, with a scythe), once in early August and once in late fall before the snow arrives.

Pastures are more beautiful than lawns!

Agreed. It's much easier to learn the invasive weeds than to learn all the plants. Then just focus on removing invasives and embrace the biodiversity on your property.

I do the same except remove all the nonnatives, not just invasives. But invasives are the most important to remove.

I have a stand of knot weed I’ve been fighting all summer. I have to keep cutting it back to try to starve it off. It grows shorter each time. Is it possible that planting milk weed around it will help to starve it?

The only consideration with milkweed is that it is extremely toxic to basically anything other than arthropods. If you have small children or pets that like to chew on leaves indiscriminately, it's a no-go.

I ought to warn anyone considering this: milk weed spreads like a weed. If you plant one, don’t be surprised if you get a half dozen of them in your garden by next year

I planted asclepias incarnata here in my south bay garden and orange aphids killed it within a month. Maybe not a great choice anyways, since it requires a lot of water.

I planted some in my yard up in New England, where it’s native. It’s spread nicely, and seems to act as a “sink” for aphids, keeping them away from other plants. They flock to it but don’t appear to seriously damage the plant’s ability to do its thing.

Now is the time to plant local species of Milkweed from seed in North America. They need the cold snap to prep them for sprouting next summer. Don't be surprised if they don't sprout until mid summer. Here is one place you can find local seed varieties. https://www.growmilkweedplants.com/

>tropical milkweed may effectively sustain monarch larvae, the perennial growth of the plant takes ill effect on the monarchs' migratory patterns and may have other physiological effects.

from [Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepias_curassavica)

My front yard with milkweed hosted some monarch butterflies this summer :)

Not to mention all the other native plants and insects!

does the milkweed in question, and other milkweeds the Monarch butterflies need, require particular soils, hydration, etc? I was a little disappointed they didn't mention it. It grew where I grew up , but that was all coastal and marshy.

Milkweed is a very hardy and invasive species. My experience (and I have acres of it volunteering on my property) is it grows anywhere and everywhere in any kind of soil but it prefers full sunlight and doesn't like its feet too wet (ie. I don't find much of it in my forests or swamps). It especially likes disturbed ground where it's easier to send out its rhizomes and form genets.

There are quite a few milkweed species, such as Sullivant's milkweed, that aren't nearly as aggressive for what it's worth. Definitely an option to plant these other sorts.

Nit: milkweed is aggressive and hardy, but only invasive in some places (outside of NA).

For many, an aggressive, hardy, native plant that is both beautiful and good for insects is welcomed with open arms.

There are a number of milkweed species that vary in the conditions they like. Some like moist and rich soil, some wet and swampy areas, some like sandy and dry soil.

Look for a local extension service or guide on what species are native near you and what types might be good for your soil conditions.

yeah, but instead of everybody with a backyard here contacting an extension service, I wanted to carry around in my head the basic possiblities so if I'm every visiting a friend with a backyard I can say "hey, you can plant milkweed".

I don't have a backyard, apartment.

I pull it out of my lawn all year because the milkweed patch spread. I better see butterflies soon.

TL;DR

More than 40 insects and other invertebrates, including slugs, snails and spider mites, dine on milkweed foliage, as do rabbits and ground squirrels. The flowers’ nectar supports butterflies, moths, bees and wasps

They won't come. At least not anymore.

We have a very bug friendly property, which includes milkweed. We used to get all kinds of butterflies, but not in the past 2 years.

Yes, I'm really looking forward to have my lawn full of bugs /s

Your lawn is already full of bugs.

You better hope it is full of bugs and moss and dead plants. As the owner of a new yard ... sigh. Those bugs help create better soil.

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