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Comment by namdnay | Hacker News Reader

> RAV4 small SUVs

Only in the US would anyone refer to the 2013 RAV4 as "small" :)

The RAV4 been gaining bulk over the years. I remember in the late 90s it really was a small SUV. It went from 148-164″ L x 67″ W x 65″ H in 1998 to 180″ L x 73″ W x 65-67″ H in 2013. Today it is 181-182″ L x 73″ W x 67-69″ H.

Almost every vehicle has, even sedans.

Thank you EPA wheelbase loophole that reduces he MPG target by increasing the vehicle size.

It's not just the EPA fuel economy requirements. Safety requirements mean cars need a lot bigger doors, more crumble zone etc.

I think it’s mainly because each new mode year has to be “better” than the last. It’s easier to be “better” (more head room, more boot space etc) when you’re bigger.

So individual models grow and then new ones come in below. For example the rav4 used to be Toyotas smallest suv, now there’s the CHR, and even the Yaris Cross

I'm sure I'm slightly misremembering/exaggerating, but RAV4s of recent years seem like a similar size to how I recall the Highlander from that time period, and now Highlanders are more like how I recall those older 4Runners(?).

The 4Runner is now 190-191″ L x 76″ W x 72″ H, in 1998 it was 179″ L x 67-71″ W x 68-69″ H. So today's RAV4 is slightly larger than 1998's 4Runner.

My wife had a 2012, 2017, and 2020 (2017 was totalled in an accident). The 2020 was dramatically bigger than the 2012. (if not in wheelbase, in perception)

She actually likes the fact that her current car, a 2023 VW ID.4, is closer in size to the 2012.

> Only in the US

I bet there are some Canadians that would disagree. And some Mexicans. And there are undoubtedly many other places in the world that does not share Europe's population density which would consider it a small SUV.

Edit: I feel bad for forgetting to mention Australia. They may well be bigger V8 enthusiasts than North America.

And Middle Easterns and Australians.

Basically everywhere but us Europeans and our tiny cars in our tiny cute medieval city roads (:

And your 13 ft (4m) wide rural roads.

You talking about Britain? They have some of the narrowest main roads I've seen in Europe.

No, has nothing to do with population density but all to do with legislation, taxation, and advertisement. It started as a regulatory loophole and slowly became a viral advertisement meme.

US, Canada, Australia are the only odd ones out. Even in Mexico most pickup are utilitarian low height flatbeds, same for most Central and South America.

You guys have a large (length and height) vehicle arms race that is absolutely setting back decades of vehicle design, pedestrian safety, and fuel efficiency.

Pickup trucks are huge in large part because of fuel efficiency regulations like CAFE which regulate fuel use per unit area. Ironically deregulating fuel efficiency would make small efficient pickups sellable again. Also repealing chicken tax would help allow economical imports. The domestic demand for remaining compact ranger/s-10/Tacoma is massive. But it's basically illegal economically to sell more.

I'd have definitely driven a compact in from Mexico were it not also illegal to permanently import them before 25 years old under most circumstances .

As far as I understand it, some of the most popular pickups in North America are basically unregulated already. Ford certainly isn't advertising the mileage on an F250, and as an HD truck I'm pretty sure the feds give it a pass altogether. I know there is discussion about it for future HD trucks, but as far as I can tell that's still a few years off.

I could be totally wrong, though, this is not an area I'm an expert in. But I do own an F250 that routinely gets sub-10 mpg unloaded. Fortunately I only drive it a couple thousand miles a year to tow my trailer, otherwise I'd feel a bit guilty about how brutally inefficient it is. HD trucks also suck as daily drivers IMO, the suspension is so stiff that it would ride better with a couple thousand pounds of ballast in the back. One of my neighbors does exactly that. Probably doesn't impact the gas mileage, can't go a lot lower...

That’s the whole point. They enacted a stupid MPG formula into law. So instead of manufacturers trying to make a compact pickup get 50mpg, they just sell big old f250s because the formula lowers down the MPG requirement dramatically.

Malicious industry capture is more likely explanation than stupidity IMO. Sell bigger more expensive shit while shutting down economical competition.

Mexico has large cars, but Mexico doesn't seem to "love" them in quite the same way as the US. I am typing this from Monterrey, NL, MX right now, and the car-size distribution skews smaller here, while also having a very long tail of small cars, cars significantly smaller than anything even available in the US. Some cars that are quite popular in mexico that are totally unavailable in the US include:

- Chevy Aveo (not available in the USA as far as I can tell) https://www.chevrolet.com.mx/autos/aveo-auto-sedan

- Hyundai i10 https://www.hyundai.com.mx/modelos/grand-i10-hb/

- Suzuki Ignis https://www.suzuki.com.mx/autos/ignis

- Nissan March https://www.nissan.com.mx/vehiculos/todos/march.html

For folks who just need to get around, all of these are small new cars available for purchase for less than $18,000 USD.

For the higher end buyer, there's more expensive small cars available as well:

- Audi A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A1

- Seat Ibiza (still midsize, but smaller than e.g. Kia Soul) https://www.seat.mx/autos/ibiza/descubre.html

- etc.

So while the small car is dying in the USA, it's doing great in Mexico.

For the average person, low population density means more miles driven. That’s a good reason to go for a vehicle that gets more miles per gallon. To the point that land and parking is cheaper, you might expect vehicles that sprawl with longer bodies and an aero shape to provide a good mix of capacity and fuel efficiency. The Tonka Truck design you see a lot of in the US isn’t especially practical for most buyers. A strong hint that most trucks aren’t purchased for hauling is that they don’t have an 8-foot bed equipped. It seems like the truck’s purpose is more to be a signifier of group affiliation.

If it were purely population density you’d see massive cars in the Nordic countries, and small cars in Los Angeles

'Small' is relative; a 2014 RAV4 tips the scales at 3,500 pounds, just 200 more than a Camry, and extends a mere 10 inches longer.

Such margins barely nudge it past sedan territory by American standards, making the 'small SUV' label fairly apt, especially in a market where vehicle dimensions have steadily grown over the years.

The older RAV4s were small though. Due to the EPA poorly thought out emissions rule, all automakers been increasing the size of their cars every generation because increasing the wheelbase reduces the MPG target they have to meet. The target is still increasing but this gives them a offset.

As a person with multiple dogs living in Europe I consider it to be small.

S in SUV stands for small btw

Sport?

Indeed, sorry )

u stands for penis and v for syndrome

It's small for an SUV, let's not be pedantic.

SUVs are also smaller in other countries.

The RAV4 a 5 seat car, if you define 2 row cars as full SUVs the definition loses all meaning. Full SUVs carry 7+ people.

Hmm... ok. I always think of SUVs as cars that are bulkier and have higher road clearance than a "normal" car (and perhaps 4WD or similar), without necessarily carrying more people like a "minivan" or "people carrier" would.

Wikipedia says "there is no commonly agreed-upon definition of an SUV and usage of the term varies between countries.", so that might explain the discrepancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUV

I rented a Toyota Raize in Japan, and the website (Budget) repeatedly described it as an SUV. It's 100mm narrower and 250mm shorter than my VW Golf.

SUV OGs were body on frame. Enclosed trucks basically.

Soccer moms and dads driving to the grocery and back with their three spawn though have more market share. So they sell you a unibody oversized car that would be absolutely destroyed if used as the OG truck frame vehicles, and the soccer dad can pretend his oversized car is some off-road hauling machine.

Toyota actually referred to my C-HR as an SUV, when to me, it was just a hatchback.

I don't even think of my EV6 as an SUV, even though it's categorized as such.

If they sold it as a hatch nobody would want it. Hatchbacks are old and unstylish and seem like station wagons. SUVs are modern and what people want.

SUV is a marketing term not any kind of real size or capacity term.

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