I dunno. Cloudflare gives me the creeps. I have no idea why so many folks think large swaths of the Internet should be reliant on a single company.
Perhaps my own mental model is wrong, but I see them as a credible challenger to those very oligopolistic companies, and wish there were more Cloudflares.
When we talk smack about Cloudflare, such as about their hosting of phishing, their underhanded DoH stuff, their complete lack of abuse handling, et cetera, lots of people come to their defense and make excuses for them.
You can like a company's product and still think the company is big and desires to be evil, but there's an emotional component for some that makes "us versus them" knee-jerk reactions more compelling than, "hmmm... is this correct?" evaluations.
I don't think any of these Cloudflare apologists would try to argue on facts that Cloudflare isn't trying to be a monopoly, isn't trying to recentralize the Internet, isn't marginalizing the rest of the non-western world, isn't trying to establish dependencies that people and companies can't easily escape, but if they did, that'd make for some interesting discussion.
I don't think it's really that so many people think Cloudflare should be relied on. It's that Cloudflare generally has a good track record and their basic services are available for free. Actually, I don't know of any service similar to Cloudflare with such a generous free tier.
I have had multiple conversations with high level individuals about why we should be using CloudFlare so widely and what the fallback is if there is an outtage. Usually it boils down to "because reasons".
Today it's #notmyproblem and life is great.
It's not just the reliance, but the fact that cloudflare is a MITM attacker (by design) on vast amounts of TLS traffic. TLS if used properly gives you end to end security, but if you use cloudflare they have access to all your cleartext traffic.
"End to end security" mentioned above is limited security when "your" endpoint is owned by and controlled by someone else.
It seems to be a common misconception that people defaults to, that you have to use CloudFlare or some alternative, otherwise you'll get hacked/ddos'd for sure.
Most services I've built that achieved any sort of traction have dealt with some sort of DoS including large fees when I've used CDNs like Cloudfront that are susceptible to a wget loop. I default to Cloudflare because it's the only one that actually covers my ass.
Cloudflare is so successful because the internet was built naively as if abusers would never exist. Just consider how IP address spoofing is still possible today and you'll begin to realize how broken the internet has always been long before you even get into dirt cheap residential smart toaster botnets.
I'm not saying others are misinformed or cargo-culting anything, just that I'm seeing lots of people who probably never get hit by DDoS in the first place (couple of visitors per day) adding CloudFlare by default as that's what they see everyone else is doing.
Of course if you do frequently get hit by DDoS attacks, there is nothing wrong with trying to protect yourself against it...
Aside from ideological preferences or a preference for some other service, I don't see what you gain by avoiding them.
I know I'm going to regret asking but, ok, I'll bite... why does IP address spoofing prove the Internet is broken? Especially considering that a) the point of internet routing is to route packets whenever possible especially around damage. and b) by volume, the internet is TCP and you can't complete a handshake with a spoofed ip.
* you can do all sorts of udp amplification attacks (e.g. dns - send a zone transfer request in a single packet with a spoofed IP, and the IP you spoofed to gets a lot of traffic in response.)
* you can do tcp syn or ack floods with a spoofed IP, these eat resources on the target machine. syn floods cause the os to allocate a new connection and timers waiting for the third ack.
* you can send lots of bad packets from a spoofed ip that causes automated systems to lock out those IPs as a response to attack traffic. If those lockouts block IPs that should be allowed (a type of denial of service)
And plenty more.
The fact that routing is designed to go around damage is orthoganal to this, and has not bearing on the fact that the communications platform can be used against itself to prevent communications (via spoofed IPs).
For literal decades partial solutions to the spoofing problem have been known - rp filtering would eliminate a lot of problems yet still isn't close to universal.
BGP has been vulnerable to all sorts of simple human mistakes for decades and decade old solutions like IRR are only slowly being adopted because many of the people that run the internet are too busy pretending they are important and good at building systems to actually make the systems good. When those same simple mistakes are intentional, all sorts of IP traffic can be spoofed including full TCP connections.
The fact that there isn't a widely supported way for the consequences of spoofing to be mitigated without paying out the nose for a 3rd party service is pretty broken too. Allowing destinations be overwhelmed without any sort of backpressure or load shedding is a fundamental flaw in "get packets to destination no matter what". An AS should be able to say "I no longer want packets from this subnet", and have it honored along the entire path. This should be a core feature, not an add-on from some providers.
The internet does work as designed, however it's folly to think that the first attempt at building something so different to anything that came before it is the best way to do it and reusing to address design decisions is fundamentally broken.
> The fact that routing is designed to go around damage is orthoganal to this, and has not bearing on the fact that the communications platform can be used against itself to prevent communications (via spoofed IPs).
> For literal decades partial solutions to the spoofing problem have been known - rp filtering would eliminate a lot of problems yet still isn't close to universal.
It's orthogonal, and yet of the places where it would actually matter or have the strongest effect, it's not used? I wonder why... 'cept not really. The Internet seems to still be functioning pretty well for something fundamental broken. For the vast majority of internet routers it's entirely reasonable for them to accept any source IP from any peer. because it is impossible to prove that peer can't reach somebody else. The exception is a huge number of endpoint ISPs who shouldn't be sending these packets and it's on them to filter them. I would love a way to identify and punish these actors for their malfeasance, but I'm not willing to add a bunch of complexity to do so.
> because many of the people that run the internet are too busy pretending they are important and good at building systems to actually make the systems good.
wow, that's a super toxic comment... and I'm an asshole saying that.
> Allowing destinations be overwhelmed without any sort of backpressure or load shedding is a fundamental flaw in "get packets to destination no matter what".
one mans fundemntal flaw is another's design trade off... every single system that has ever seen widespread adoption has defaulted to open and permissive. every. single. one. it's only after seeing widespread adoption does anything ever add in restrictions and rules and most often when it does it's seen as the enshittification of something. (most often then because exerting control allows you to vampiriclly extract more value). but dropping packets one system is overloaded is exactly what the internet does do, what you're describing sounds more like TCP working around it. (poorly admittedly)
> An AS should be able to say "I no longer want packets from this subnet", and have it honored along the entire path. This should be a core feature, not an add-on from some providers.
I could not agree more. but this is a missing feature not a fundamental flaw. the internet still works for the vast, vast majority of users and as I've said in a different thread the use or dependency on cloudflare is often a skill issue not a requirement.
You're 100% correct, core internet routing has many fixable defects. and many ISPs are moving slower than could be reasonably considered ethical or competent. But for something this core of infrastructure I would actually prefer slow and careful over the break everything on a whim because of the "move fast" mind virus that has overtaken CS.
> The internet does work as designed, however it's folly to think that the first attempt at building something so different to anything that came before it is the best way to do it and reusing to address design decisions is fundamentally broken.
It's also needless absolutist to say every defect is a fundamental design decision. The Internet was built to support trusted peering relationships. Where if someone was being abusive, you'd call your buddy and say "fix your broken script". The core need the internet is now supporting is wildly different, and this "fundamental design flaw", is actually just user error. If you strap a rocket engine on a budget sedan, it's not a design flaw when the whole thing explodes. If you're going to add untrustworthy peers to your network you also have to add a way to deal with them. that's a missing feature not a design flaw.
not that you need to have the answer to make your point, but now I am curious: what is the alternative architecture that prevents IP address spoofing? Wouldn't proving you are the IP you purport to be require some sort of authentication, which requires some centralized authority to implement? Which would require a fundamentally centralized internet?
Yes, that fundamentally central authority overseeing the IP address space exists today as IANA, which delegates to RIRs such as ARIN and RIPE, who allow ISPs to assert authority over address space cryptographically (RPKI) and/or in a central registry (IRR). This is the basis on which BGP announcements are typically filtered.
> what is the alternative architecture that prevents IP address spoofing?
It is possible to extend the same filtering approaches used with BGP to actual traffic forwarding without making fundamental architectural changes. See BCP38 (access) and BCP84 (peering). Widespread adoption of these would eliminate IP spoofing.
It seems to me like a common misconception that you "have to have a fire extinguisher" (or other supression system), otherwise you'll have your house burn down.
It only takes one trivial event to make you a cloudflare zealot, most ISPs (web hosts) don't provide attack mitigation nor prevention. If you didn't know that you could ban IPs programtically you'd have been screwed* and would have loved how quickly cloudflare would protect your site.
It's not a difficulty thing, it's an ignorance thing. cloudflare isn't better,or magic, it's easy and popular. Just like social media, and aws.
For some people, i.e. most 'web developers' you will get hacked if you don't use it... because the alternative would be literally nothing. Not everyone wants to do things correctly, they only want it to work, working correctly is required.
The problem (as far as I know) that cloudflare actually provides, is being able to identify abusive networks, and making them prove they're not bots before they reach your server. If you can't even identify the abusive traffic, you don't have many options other than cloudflare.
Do you live in a country that has enemies? DDoS attacks are one of the primary weapons of cyberwarfare.
You may not have suffered an attack yet, but thinking the world is a peaceful place in which small players have no worries is naïve.
Who doesn't?
> You may not have suffered an attack yet
But I literally shared in my previous comment that I have?
> thinking the world is a peaceful place in which small players have no worries is naïve
I agree, and I guess I'm lucky for not holding such opinion then.
I cannot rate limit on the machines itself as they die immediately, so then I need to get more advanced firewalls etc which are vastly more expensive than CF.
Reference: CEO takes less than average salary... 600 k./yr. After > 14 years.
Note: as far as I know ( which is one of the many reasons I do "believe" in cloudflare), he is already wealthy and didn't start cloudflare for the money.
The facts seem to be supportive of that statement ( cfr. Compensation).
The previous time I was a fan of a company was AMD in 2014 ( somewhere around that time) and because of Lisa Su + product line up.
They came along, out of nowhere and started offering their infrastructure, their global distribution network for free as a reverse proxy. This allowed people to scale their single-server-services out for nothing, it insulated servers from DDoS and single-government action. For the people that needed it, it took 10 minutes and revolutionised a lot of slow websites.
But then they started offering actual services. A formal CDN, largely for free but after that, pennies on the dollar of what major players were asking. And 6 years ago they started building your stuff for you, allowing you to host it near your users. They sell domains at cost, host DNS for nothing, and handle inbound email for you.
As a webdev, they're making my life very simple. Things that took me a day to bash out and bootstrap for a new client, I've done with CloudFlare while the client is on the phone.
If they vanished tomorrow, it'd be a wrench. But that's true of so much online infrastructure. Where would you be without Github, NPM, PyPI, dockerhub, etc? Enjoy it while we can.
2 outages in the last week is 1 objective reason why they do, though.
The first one did get fixed in 30 minutes, which is probably some sort of record. I can't remember where any other cloud provider updated their status page even within 30 minutes ( or they hid it within their authenticated environment)
Who thinks that? Can you link to anyone who has said that?
Downvoted for "I am superior to <strawman>" comment.
I didn't interpret their comment this way. To me, it read "this thing gives me bad vibes and I don't understand why so many people like it."
"I don't use Chrome, I don't know why everyone thinks the internet should depend on Google" is a strawman because nobody does think that; many people use Chrome despite thinking the exact opposite of that, even. Same with CloudFlare, it's free, it's convenient, it's very good at what it does (current outage excepted), it's widely known, easy to work with, has good support. Nobody who chooses it does so because they want to hand internet control to a single company. And "I don't know why people use (popular, well known, well made solution)" is a very common internet comment which communicates a certain message.
[1] people who work for Google are paid to think that, so their decision doesn't count.
I personally haven't seen anyone praise the Internet being reliant on a single company. However, I have seen lots of praise for Cloudflare over the years and "naysayers" (such as people raising concerns about them MITMing half the Internet) being aggressively downvoted. In that context, I see it as many people tacitly endorsing Cloudflare and not caring about the control it holds, rather than people explicitly saying "Cloudflare _should_ control the majority of the Internet."