Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

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Economy is structured for extraction, not compassion. If this wasn't the case, we would prioritize people taking care of their children over GDP (just one example, lots of other examples; consider states recently allowing children to work in slaughterhouses and other dangerous workplaces [1] [2]). The purpose of the system is what it does. Line Goes Up Cult.

Vote for people who support better policy, few alternative options that can lead to some amount of success. Good policy is not hard, just takes will (confirmed by a quick review of other OECD/developed countries).

But at least we're at full/maximum employment amirite? [3]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/27/us-leg... ("A meat processer killed a 16-year-old. Yet US lawmakers want more child labor")

[2] https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/as-child-labor-vi... ("As Child Labor Violations Skyrocket, Casey, Murray, DeLauro Introduce Legislation to Combat Child Labor Exploitation")

[3] https://www.federalreserve.gov/mediacenter/files/FOMCprescon...

Bonus APM Marketplace episode: https://www.marketplace.org/2023/09/01/gdp-measure-of-econom... ("When it comes to measuring economic welfare, GDP doesn’t cut it")

Wellbeing Economy Alliance (mentioned in above episode): https://weall.org/

If people can't work, they aren't earning income. If they don't have extra income, they aren't buying anything. So the state isn't getting tax income from these folks. In fact, they are probably paying them welfare. God forbid they can't make rent... It's almost impossible for children who grow up in this situation to escape it themselves. If the economy wanted to extract anything from these people, it would make sure they were working.

On the subject of policy, things like the expanded child tax credit and school lunches pay the government back incredibly well, so support for stuff like that isn't just helping your neighbor, it's helping yourself, too.

Why is this downvoted?

because it's assuming that a family that can't afford child care is on welfare.

Some people become stay-at-home parents because they can't afford childcare, have to get welfare, maybe can't make rent, and maybe their children grow up in poverty.

Other people become stay-at-home parents because their partner earns a six-figure salary, they've decided to have 4-6 kids which they can afford, and with that many kids a stay-at-home parent just makes economic sense for a few years. Their household income is substantially above the national median, despite being a single-earner household. Their children do not grow up in poverty - in fact quite the opposite.

Guess which type of person the average HN reader meets more often?

> If the economy wanted to extract anything from these people, it would make sure they were working.

If people don't raise people, there soon won't be people to economy. You have to invest in people (education, welfare, etc.) before they invest into the economy. These black-and-white deductions only make sense for spherical cows in void.

it looks like some people have interpreted it as being written from a conservative point of view blaming the poor for their own problems, and definitely some phrasing suggests this but there is other phrasing that suggests otherwise so I would say it is probably downvoted because people have decided to take the least forgiving interpretation of the comment.

on edit: looks like I'm getting downvoted now! How exciting!!

> some people have interpreted it as being written from a conservative point of view

Well, the comment in question uses a lot of conservative tropes: a) ppl not earning = on welfare b) victim blaming c) GDP uber alles

things that are not particular conservative tropes.

> It's almost impossible for children who grow up in this situation to escape it themselves.

Understanding that people cannot escape poverty by 'themselves'

>On the subject of policy, things like the expanded child tax credit and school lunches pay the government back incredibly well, so support for stuff like that isn't just helping your neighbor, it's helping yourself, too.

seem to support paying more taxes to help less fortunate people.

These things taken together makes me think the parts that sound uncaring are maybe just poorly phrased.

> a) ppl not earning = on welfare

"probably on welfare" is what they say, which if you "can't afford child care" it might be that you need some government assistance of some sort when one of the partners drops out of the workforce to take care of the children.

This is of course different than "the benefit of the partner working in comparison to paying for child care is negligible", which would be another reason for one to drop out and take care of the children.

For some reason everybody came with the example of "the benefit of the partner working in comparison is negligible" examples in contrast to "can't afford child care", which would be understandable if they said well there's another reason than just not being able to afford why people drop - but they didn't make that comment.

So for these various reasons I think the comment was reasonable compassionate but did have a GDP viewpoint on why the system should be changed to allow people to continue working and afford childcare.

to clarify "the benefit of the partner working is negligible" this of course hits those cases in which one partner basically earns for a full time employment something close to what child care costs anyway. They CAN afford child care but child care is NOT WORTH IT.

Just had to clarify what should be a simple concept, but sometimes I worry.

on edit: this is essentially the point michealt made earlier https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38111884 but they made it evidently as a reason why the original comment should be downvoted.

on second edit: of course assumption is the other partner earns a lot.

Furthermore, if we care about a growing population, we need to encourage people to have children. Seeing children as a massive burden and a trap away from your ability to work (because of childcare needs) leads to people just not having kids.

All the talk about "we need more kids" is completely moot, if you want people to have kids, give them a reason not to fear it. I am thankfully in a position where a phone call from the school means I'll work the rest of the day from home. My neighbor has limited options because she can't afford to work and childcare while her husband is at work. So her only options are: Don't work, work such that she never shares any off time with her husband, and thus is effectively living alone and basically that's it. And her job prospects aren't such that most jobs will cover daycare + more. In fact most jobs will barely pay above the cost of daycare.

The policy of forced child birth in many states also looms large over this conversation.

Exactly. Because their solution is the whip, not the carrot. They are describing a very real need, people having kids, but they are absolutely going about it in both the worst possible way AND in the most malicious way.

They are not solving the problem, they are just pushing the problem onto people who's future will be destroyed. And it is causing many secondary catastrophes in our economy. And this article points out exactly one such. Healthcare is another. And food security is a third. There are others.

> So the state isn't getting tax income from these folks.

So perhaps resting our a bulk of taxation on income tax may not be a sustainable model. Especially when the corporate and high income wealth is so tax preferred (or evading taxes).

Refactoring our tax system to a less extraction model may be the better approach. Wealth taxes, financial transaction taxes, more effective property taxes (ie, land value tax) could result in a more livable country for the vast majority of people (numbers will go down a bit for the billionaires).

> Economy is structured for extraction, not compassion.

> Vote for people who support better policy

The problem here is that the latter is controlled by those in charge of the former because unlike those other OECD countries, bribery is pretty much legal in America.

It will take bribery to end bribery.

I can't vote in the states that want child labor laws gutted. There are always loud voices in those states that say there's nothing wrong with it and that educating children as opposed to putting them to work is just governmental overreach.

https://allpoetry.com/The-Golf--Links

I mean, there is a lot being put but this isn't the path to good policy. Good policy is arrived at slowly, thoughtfully and with people who are engaging the part of their mind that handles executive function. Usually with some compromises.

"A meat processer killed a 16-year-old. Yet US lawmakers want more child labor" is very much not a headline chosen by someone who is aiming for good policy. It is a clear ploy to get an emotional response. There are two topics that are reliably used for that - the first is protecting children and the second is war and combat metaphors (after thinking that, I read 'combat' in the 2nd link with a certain ironic smile).

The world is a very harsh place, and a lot of people are going to suffer through it. Blanket banning people from working - even 16 year olds - is unlikely to get to the best place. There are a lot of young people who's best path probably was working very hard at a job to get away from their families. Issues like that should be considered at length - and calmly. Just because the idea doesn't sit well doesn't mean it is a bad one.

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