Flies neglect food and endure shocks to seek a dopamine reward | Hacker News Reader

Flies neglect food and endure shocks to seek a dopamine reward

dpag.ox.ac.uk

103 pointsgmays32 comments

I think I've read this novel before, except it was rats and monkeys shocking themselves with electrically stimulated orgasms or something till they starved. Perhaps different hormones are involved, or it's remarkable that flies are able to delay gratification, but I'm becoming less surprised by this kind of thing as time goes on. We humans aren't as special as we thought, even when compared to flies.

No comment on human exceptionalism per se but I think you have the logic a little backwards. The "higher" process would be to act according to reason, not according to one's dopamine receptions.

great way to reduce weight!

I agree it's a fair question to compare humans and flies, indeed we are ultimately not very different: both multicellular and individual (wavefront/particle-wise) beings.. I guess the size of the 'agential' goal-radius isn't really comparable but I think of flies as somehow our necessary companions, fancifully the GOL-esque 'gliders' of our reality on earth.. I've seen glider-like behaviour in reaction-diffusion sims too, I think photons are probably glider-like.. Ah whoops, tangent! I think, all multicellular life is probably able to have it's goal-circuits messed-with like this, if access is not controlled enough.. same goes for flies.

This doesn’t pass the smell test if you think about it for two minutes. Well-adjusted people with decently varied lives easily have the means to pleasure-button themselves to death. But they don’t. And not because they continually will-power themselves out of every such situation. Simply because maximum pleasure stimuli is not that interesting.

> We humans aren't as special as we thought, even when compared to flies.

The fact that you jumped to this conclusion instead of considering how actual people in the real world work rather suggests that you are the one who has some kind of motivated reasoning (in the opposite direction).

I believe this is very common, with rats starving themselves to death next to food while able to get dopamine. Cats too.

As I understand it, it's a reward signal that becomes an "expected reward in future" signal with some learning.

Been reading an interesting book that touches on this, AI and evolution called A Brief History of Intelligence.

Humans too:

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/19/world/taiwan-gamer-death/...

A lot of the modern economy is optimizing for dopamine provision. Social media, fast food, tobacco. It brings into question the concept of free consumer choice. The reality is that we're more akin to moths flying into a flame whenever dopamine is involved.

My personality makes me have to resist these things with asceticism. But I am also very aware of how things make me feel as a result. We are biological machines but I don't believe that is all we are, so we aren't resigned to addiction to whatever catches our eye first.

>I believe this is very common, with rats starving themselves to death next to food

yes but in a way that makes it more interesting rather than less. dopamine evolved way way back in the evolutionary tree, and that it has been maintained for essentially the same use over millions of years and countless clades is fascinating.

don't give dopamine to ChatGPT, it's contraindicated with paperclips

> don't give dopamine to ChatGPT, it's contraindicated with paperclips

Upvoting it is essentially dopamine long term. Would be nice if it had effects more immediately like in living beings, so you could punish it until it got things right and reward it when it does well.

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."

Goodhart's law, it's everywhere...

Can you elaborate? I‘m not sure how to interpret this in this context.

Being in my heyókȟa mode, I asked my chatty AI buddy, what I could have meant:

>Goodheart's Law states that "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." In the context of the flies' behavior, the pursuit of the dopamine reward can be seen as the "target." Initially, the reward-encoding dopaminergic neurons serve as a "measure" to promote survival by encouraging reward-seeking behavior. However, when the flies prioritize the pursuit of the dopamine reward above all else, neglecting essential needs and enduring punishment, the neurons' function as a beneficial measure is compromised. This reflects Goodheart's Law, as the pursuit of the reward becomes the sole target, leading to detrimental behavior and neglect of other crucial survival aspects.

Thinking about it, he/she/it is about right.

p.s.

And no, I am not making fun of you, I am doing field studies.

For fun.

So it turns out that chucking in some AI nonsense doesn't make your original comment any less pointless?

Getting to the point, you aren't raising the dopaminergic level of your reward-encoding neurons just for the sake of it, do you?

I misread the title as 'files' and was very confused for a moment.

So basically the author said they have destroyed the reward/punishment encoding neurons network and found what: a disturbed behavior. It's not really a surprise, isn't it?

It’s not the dopamine, it’s the GABA that the dopamine releases that they are really craving.

People don’t get addicted to dopamine, they get addicted to GABA.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23034651/#:~:text=GABA%20is%....

If that were true, I'd expect gabapentin, which is a GABA analogue, to be far more popular. I'm guessing it isn't as simple as that though.

It is popular. The street name for gabapentin and Pregabalin is “Bud”. It is addictive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404313/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/gyz49y/the-strange-drug-kill...

GABA analogues are just metabolized a lot in the gut and do not get into the brain as easily as triggering the release via dopamine and serotonin agonists.

Beer is Bud.

Cannabis is Bud.

Now pills are Bud?!?!?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8mD2hsxrhQ

Spot on, dopamine isn't addictive. It is the mechanism by which addictive behaviors are reinforced and ingrained into neural pathways. To say dopamine is addictive is akin to saying alcoholics are actually addicted to the processes of fermentation and distillation. Dopamine itself isn't pleasurable like many people believe. Robert Sapolsky states, "dopamine is not about pleasure, it's about the anticipation of pleasure; it's about the pursuit of happiness rather than happiness itself." [1]

GABA is an interesting candidate, but we must also consider the effects of endorphins, norepinephrine, oxytocin, endocannabinoids, and perhaps other amines as well. With sufficient release of certain neurotransmitters, there is likely a cascade effect where others are released in turn. It seems like any powerfully rewarding and pleasurable activity is going to cue the release of some or all of these neurotransmitters/hormones (the line between them can be blurry; under certain circumstances, neurotransmitters get dumped out of synapses and into the bloodstream to become hormonally active in the body).

Perhaps there is even some coding between different mixes of the above chemical messengers and the distinct subjective types of pleasure, such as deep satisfaction, social harmony, social ecstasy, family bonding, sexual release, elation over a personal victory, etc.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axrywDP9Ii0

first, I wanna step back and give you a new description of addiction.

Addiction is the pain of absence.

This is important neurologically, because the pain of absence is caused by changes in receptor density to any one of several neurotransmitters.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3760378/

But I want to take an even further step back and appoint to an even more fundamental cause of receptor density changes, and that is oxidative stress. I believe the oxidative stress is the underlying mechanism of addiction. If you can manage oxidative stress, you can inhibit addiction.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7555323/

>Addiction is the pain of absence.

I love this definition, because we feel the absence and want to resolve it. If the focus on that absence gets too great, we start living to serve the reduction of that absence, leading to antisocial behavior the deeper you step into the addiction.

I also believe this is one reason why we are so easy to addict these days - we feel the absence of meaning in our lives (which used to be filled by spiritual practices that many have abandoned all over the world) and in an effort to reduce that lack of meaning, we seek meaning in other things. And if not meaning, we seek comfort which can lead to addiction to anything we rely on too much to salve the pain.

This is a philosophical take rather than a biochemical one, of course, so there are multiple angles to consider this issue from.

They could have just interviewed MMO players

Oh, we’re back to the rat-with-a-pleasure button again?

What kind of electric shock can you give a fly without killing it? Also where do you plug the contacts?

I am sometimes amazed how perfectly Art can sometime predict future and mimic reality.

In the movie Surrogates(2009), people use electro-shock hookah called jacker to enjoy themselves.

          POUNDING MUSIC. BODIES SLAM together in a brutal mosh
          pit, MEN and WOMEN. All are young, some beautiful,
          others extremely decorated and pierced. They tear at
          each other brutally, trying to do real damage. On the
          edges of the pit, individual FISTFIGHTS go on. An
          incongruous CHANDELIER overhead, gilt-edged MIRRORS on
          the walls-- the FIGHTERS SLAM INTO and SHATTER them.
          A HARD-CORE BAND plays on an elevated stage. The
          MUSICIANS are heavily punked out, in outlandish clothes,
          with pierced faces, tattoos and body make-up.
          IN A VIP AREA, a balcony elevated above the stage,
          numerous BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE at tables.
          TUXEDO sits by himself. He raises a GLASS TUBE attached
          to a CORD, one of a few leading into an ELECTRONIC DEVICE
          on the table. As he brings the tube close to his own
          neck, an ARC of electricity jumps to his skin. His
          features go slack, a shudder goes through him. Then he
          lowers the tube with a smile. He's using a JACKER-- a
          sort of electro-shock hookah. A SHOUT over the MUSIC:

Here's the exact movie scene, https://youtu.be/jX71XvnMDys?t=42

like us..

Same

Reply on news.ycombinator.com