Israel was removed from Baidu Maps earlier today
twitter.com
twitter.com
If China decides (and no-one is saying that it has) that it no longer recognizes Israel, then it will simply announce that, and not get a private company to make subtle UI changes to reflect a secret policy instead.
Google (used to?) opts for a different approach where some borders are drawn based on where they geolocated you to.
There certainly are geology and other scientific endeavours which perhaps don't care too much for countries, but even they probably need them when they interface with regular humans (I.e. This lake is in such and such country, this volcano is about to explode over there, etc)
Interfacing with humans does not necessarily have to be done along social borders. I'm sure it wasn't that way before the rise of the nation-state. Everyone knows where the Alps are, or where the Great Lakes are. Pretty much every place on Earth is covered by some geographical-not-political area name. Why shouldn't places be referred to in that way? It's harder to politically push for a change in the definition of the Gobi Desert than of an arbitrary administrative unit.
The planet is populated everywhere, and you need to know who's in power pretty much everywhere you're going, or else you might have a bad time.
Which I did not pick up from your initial post within this context, but fair enough!:)
On a global scale, when the country borders are removed, we find ourselves lost, despite the huge ecological and geological diversity of the place, which makes our - or at least mine - experience as a inhabitant of this amazing place so much poorer. Compare the difficulty of finding the Atacama desert versus Luxembourg. How often do you see a whole-Earth map with the desert marked but not the state?
It's not clear what effect "removing borders from maps" has - if you are suggesting having no borders as in your original comment, or having them, but just removing them from maps.
In the latter case it would be massively inconvenient to not know where borders are, if there are visa issues. Plus, there isn't really an equivalence to "illegally discriminating based on seeing the border". The appearance of a single, otherwise anon individual, versus international agreement on where the borders are seem to be v. different things.
As such, interpreting as the former; "maps are concerned with the concept of an area" - they are as concerned with navigation as anything else, so include roads, and borders plus border stops. "I have not encountered maps that explicitly mention the concept of a citizen" no, but they usually name the country - I mention citizen from the perspective on how it impacts travel; presumably removing borders means there are no territories, and thus no countries; but a country is as much a collection of people (citizens) so both diminish, unless you maintain a territory-less concept of citizenship.
Not clear to me "Nothing of value is lost" - tell me how this would impact, say, Israel? or anywhere bordering Russia. Or are you only taking from the about specific cherry-picked locales?
The problem is closer to: "the presence of pictures on CVs is detrimental to someone due to outside bias", "the presence of borders on maps is detrimental to Yandex due to outside bias". Not quite the same mechanism, but similar in spirit.
> they are as concerned with navigation as anything else
All maps are concerned with an area, some with navigation. A map of the Moon is still interesting to some non-astronauts.
I concede, if you use a map for navigation, a concept of a national border is still relevant. But in other cases, given the variety of possible geographical data, it rarely is.
Schengen says hi.
Also, Schengen borders are transparent only for full EU residents. If your visa and right of abode is restricted to a particular country, the borders are still very relevant.
Even for EU residents, the borders are still relevant as they demarcate places with quite different civil and penal law codes.
More seriously, as much as I’d love to live in a different world, borders are not going anywhere.
“Major provocation from China.”
If this is a major provocation I’d hate to see what he considers something more substantive than a UI change.
China is extremely offended when that happens — and should be held to the same standard, regarding others.
What this definitely is not is a major provocation.
Yes, that's bad. Hence, "should be held to the same standard". You may reasonably disagree with that, but as it stands your implication is that the more bad things a country does, the less we should care.
I can’t say for sure this is that, but I can say for sure that there is tremendous political power in cartography and the simplest act of choosing the label levels for placenames. This move has been done countless times before so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s intentional.
The more likely explanation is that the companies are catering to their custmer base. As in most of the world, there is huge public support to stop the killing of Gazans. Western companies, and companies in Wester-capured neocolonies, can't show support for Gaza. Maybe this is ALibaba testing out if it can. It'll be interesting to see if it lasts, or if it gets changed again in a few days. This should tell you more.
Tell that to the Austrailians and now the Israelis, where China has sent a naval task force. China is building aircraft carriers like nobody's businesss for force remote projection, which is the one thing they're really good at. China has the same desire to project force as the US, they simply lack the means to do so as effectively. Their recent actions in the Gulf is proof enough of that.
A funny thing I just noted that could lead to this behaviour is that if you wanted to place the label for Israel at the centre of Israel then I think it would be in Palestine.
I'm not 100% sure because Google Maps doesn't show a label for Palestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Disappearance_from_the...
Wikipedia is good for many things, but not for hot-button political topics. Those sorts of pages are usually written by politically motivated editors, so you're seeing whatever spin the dominant group of editors at that page wants you to see.
China is very anti-Israel, the government has condemned Israel and called for a two-state solution. And the online discourse there is extremely anti-Semitic, the Chinese version of Twitter (Weibo) is basically Gab.
https://www.voanews.com/amp/antisemitic-comments-flood-china...
That's just completely false. China and Israel has always had a decently warm relationship, so much so Israel was selling weapons to China until the U.S. forced them to stop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Israel_relations...
The Israel-Palestine conflict is one place where they have disagreement, but overall the two countries are on friendly terms.
And you do know Voice of America is an U.S. government funded propaganda outlet right?
They would very much like to see Israel knocked down a peg as Israel serves as a demo of the US army capabilities.
China is very much anti-Muslim because Islamists pose a threat to its absolute power and its projected illusion of unity.
China is also anti-Israel because Israel is a close ally of the US and majority Muslim countries normalising relationships with Israel aligns them closer with the US.
Also, the non-Chinese version of Weibo (Twitter, or X) is also basically Gab at this point and flooded with antisemitic and anti-Israel (but also anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim) posts. The owner has even shared antisemitic accounts and posts himself. That doesn't seem to be a good yardstick for anything.
A muslim is not an islamist [1], your simplification is concerning, China officially recognize Islam [2], and Uyghurs weren't subject to the 1 child policy
Stick to the facts please
[1] - https://humanists.international/blog/the-difference-between-...
[2] - https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-r....
I'm not saying anything negative about Islam here. If there were a similar international network of political Christians, China would likely be very concerned about Christian minorities as well, but as it is, Islamists pose the most direct risk of promoting separatist sentiments and this makes Muslims suspect, whether their religion is officially tolerated or not.
Heck, Tibet is another obvious example with separatist sentiments being directly tied to the religious/spiritual structure of the region and its opposition to the absolute claims to power of the central government. It's just a consequence of trying to project a monolithic structure for a territory this vast with this many ethnic groups and cultures within. Probably the weirdest and most impractical manifestation of this is in the single Chinese timezone.
It is far worse than the one child policy. Many were subjected to sterilization and involuntary birth control.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
Your narrative is full of contradiction
https://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-saudi-arabia-...
https://apnews.com/article/syria-ap-top-news-riots-internati...
Now that the security crackdown has eased, journalists have changed their tone, or perhaps strategy ;)
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-ch...
None of your links refute anything to do with sterilization and forced contraception, despite the numerous reports, research, and overwhelming conclusion of their validity. Your links do describe bulldozing mosques, putting Uyghars in campus, and moving in ethic Chinese Hans. Stalin did a similar thing (forcibly relocating Tartars and replacing them with Russians) when trying to eliminate the Crimean Tartars.
> Now that the security crackdown has eased, journalists have changed their tone, or perhaps strategy ;)
Those links paint a picture of a brutal (and vile) crackdown. "Joking" about a supposed cross continental conspiracy between various researchers and new agencies is pretty dark. I don't think we have anything more to discuss.
Terrorism is bad and should be fought no matter what, we seen what happens when you are not pro-active (Hamas and its deadly attack in Israel)
I wish MI6 cared as much about the Palestinians as they do about the Uyghurs ;)
I'm curious what you're defining as antisemitic here. I've seen a lot of claims that being anti-Israeli-government is equivalent to antisemitism, but this is objectively not the case.
Since october 7th there I have observed (probably because a lot of people I follow on twitter are jewish, so they kinda amplify the nasty content) serious rise in "gas the jews" types of antisemithism on twitter.
Some of it edgelording of course, but a lot of the content there has serious bite.
I wonder how much that contributes to the viralness(virality?) of some of this hate speech? It's definitely not healthy and a good reason to get off social media.
Right now the main claim is about the university letters that claimed the fault of October 7th terrorist attacks are 100% due to Israel. This is dumb and devoid of factual basis. Also members of the squad said pretty ignorant things about the war.
It's a mistake even Jews make because of basic misunderstanding of the situation. E.g. the grand central demonstration.
This is all based on some correct notion: Israel has been terrible to the Palestinians. That's a fact that the Liberals are 100% correct about. There should be a Palestinian state and settlements should be removed...
But today in New York they had a demonstration which called for the formation of a Palestinian state from sea to river. That effectively means wiping out Israel.
That is the explicit charter of the Hamas. That is why it sabotaged the Oslo accord and stopped peace. Liberals are always against war, but in this case it's a war against a jihadi organization that has done everything to stop peace and a Palestinian state. Some violence is necessary to stop them.
They are also very media savvy and manipulate liberal sentiment with difficult pictures. I saw the Circus the other week. A young liberal was confronting Kamala Harris and said horrible things about Israel. He blamed Israel for the Hospital bombing and made pretty horrendous false claims. This is all false, but by the time it was proven false people don't notice it and move to the next piece of propaganda from the Hamas.
There's a liberal desire to help the weak, I'm a liberal and have that same desire. As a
>"It's really the fault of Little Mustache," wrote a netizen. "If he had burned all of them (Jews), we wouldn't have this much trouble."
Nobody on the left or right in the west is that anti-Semitic, at least not publicly.
It's a strange motte-and-bailey, where media outlets are factual ("here are a few tweets"), but are always interpreted in irrational ways ("XYZ group has a big problem with ABC"), since average people are known to falsely generalize based on anecdotes. I'll take such articles seriously when they start presenting quantified empirical data. I'll be waiting a while.
Jews in the west are afraid to go to universities. Stars of david were drawn on many houses in France. In a Palestinian demonstration where they called for a Palestinian state from river to sea (elimination of Israel), the only arrested person is a Jewish woman who confronted them.
I don't rush to call people antisemitic, I think most of them are just "useful idiots" for the Hamas/Iran propaganda. But there are also some people who are letting old prejudice rise and using this as an opportunity. This isn't mainstream but that's how these things start...
So what I was wanting to say was that gab is not the best comparison specifically now specifically for antisemitism. Mainstream twitter is
except for the neo-nazis..
Quoting in hopes that you read your own words and think about them a bit longer.
Sounds more like great power rivalry.
It's more like a handful of privileged countries behaving as if they own the world, and their client states (who the first have no problem if they're theocratic or dictatorships or brutal far right as long as they are their allies), against the developing world and any country with claims to sovereignity.
I do not thing there is something wrong. That is why I asked because this 'colonial' narrative seems often too vague. It is often just 'the west'.
Then again, Russia would definitely benefit from the conflict if it heats up further.
In fact, still tries in the face of accusations that are flying around.
I love this kind of rhetoric, it implies we in the west are the democratic ones and dehumanizes the "enemy". The same wording has also been used to condone carpet bombing civilians the last weeks. "It's up to the democratic world".
I don't think we are that much better, our leaders are just better at hiding their bullshit. But people willingly fall for the myth that we are somehow the "good guys".
The way you put it's X, Y, Z and friends against us is also interesting. Have you considered it might be the other way around? Hasn't basically every president waited for a reason to fight the last boss in the middle east? We're very hungry for war in the west, don't fool yourself we're any better than the rest.
We're not content with what we have, we will keep destabilizing the world until we own it all. The day every so-called leader answers to the US that's when we have world peace.
All of the stans seem to get quite well with China, they are buddies with Iran and the Gulf and they make major investments in the green crescent in africa. They also get well with Malaysia.
That is quite pro muslim. The only muslims they have problems with are the one inside their borders. So less than 1% of the total muslims in the world.
That's very much not pro-muslim, then.
A lot of countries use the Israel-Palestinian issue as a distraction from their own abuses of their Muslim populations.
Also, it could easily be just opting to not display any disputed borders, which Israel has multiple of (Gaza, West Bank, Golan).
Aren't the majority of China's maritime borders disputed?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_the_Pe...
They seem to have disputes with about half of the countries on their borders (land and maritime). That's a fair few. :/
"Google Maps accused of deleting Palestine" - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/10/google-ma...
For Baidu, it's probably just a mistake, they would have communicated it otherwise
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If I play with the zoom I see many small countries without labels (no idea what they say) -- cyprus, israel, and lebenon included