The Married Introvert
lukasrosenstock.net
lukasrosenstock.net
I’m this though. I’m a raging introvert and I am married. But no, I am not loyal to my wife because my lifestyle doesn’t offer me enough alternatives. That’s F’ed up. Being loyal and committed and being an introvert is also orthogonal by the way.
Being a good husband and being quiet and easygoing are also orthogonal. Emotional needs are a thing in both of you and they are not met by tinkering with raspberry pi’s.
If you are hosting game nights and actively pursuing community, you are not a raging introvert. Trust me on this. You are a normal person with a bit of both and maybe slightly introverted and yes, you might be lacking an authentic connection. Notice this doesn’t mean a romantic connection, that’s just the “normie” variation of it.
But I am convinced every person needs something outside his or herself to truly grow. I think this can be found in art or religion, but I am not sure. Another human is easier.
Yeah I thought that was borderline offensive.
Second, I didn't claim that people are only loyal because of lack of alternatives. I apologize if that came out offensive. But I still believe that people are more likely to cheat on their spouse a) the more alternatives they have and b) the more they enjoy the process of dating and flirting.
Funny story: my sister told me that she would try to date my wife if my sister wasn't straight, and my wife wasn't already taken. Then she said, "Don't cheat on her or I'll <NSFW threat here>."
And then she stopped, thought a moment, and said, "Eh, but if you tried, you'd fail anyway because your social skills suck."
Lol.
Here's one way I don't fit the stereotype of the post: I married my wife at 25, after university. I didn't find her at university.
I tried, though. I got stood up at the altar by a previous fiancee. Best bad day that ever happened to me; my wife is SO much better.
So yeah, I fit the stereotype of trying to find a partner and letting my social life suffer for it.
But here's the kicker: my wife, though she is the extrovert, is shy. So I have to step up, be a man, and jumpstart a conversation with people instead of her. I keep going until I find some topic that she has in common with the person, and she'll start speaking up. I slowly wind down my part until the conversation is happening naturally between her and the other person.
And then I shut up and daydream of being at home.
Anyway, if you find a good partner, marry them. 10/10 would recommend.
I'm one of these guys, and yes, I met my wife and we started dating because I temporarily made a very conscious effort to meet girls in college. As a CS major and ROTC cadet, I went out of my way and my comfort zone to take classes and participate in activities that had a more favorable male-female ratio. I met my wife in a foreign language conversation group that was at least 2/3 girls after asking a few of them to meet one-on-one for more practice. And yes, I'm sure that my sex drive at age 19-20 was a big part of that.
But I wouldn't call that "[becoming] more extroverted." I think an extrovert is someone who draws their energy from socializing. I didn't. It was an effort, a drain on my energy. I still drew my energy from reading, thinking, writing, listening to a podcast (radio programs back then), going solo to the gym or for a run, etc. Similarly, I can talk to people or do public speaking for my job, but it's still not where I get my energy; I retreat afterwards to the quiet of my office, car, and lunch by myself.
One thing you said well is how you put in the effort even though it was an energy drain. Because you felt the reward - finding a partner - was worth it. And I have mostly not felt that way.
I'd compare it to the sport of golf, in which it's well known that hitting just one good shot (straight and pure) in a hundred will keep a beginner playing for the next thousand shots because they feel sure that they can do it again.
I'm very happy with my life - my spouse, my kids, my extended family, my small group of friends that's been together for 20+ years, and my career. I have very little interest in socializing / meeting new people, and would much rather spend all my free time improving my existing relationships (see above), or be by myself.
I know how to socialize / meet new people, but never feel comfortable doing that.
I would say, however: I actually love socializing and meeting new people, it's very fun and rewarding. People are awesome! It just so happens that I need to make an effort to go out in the first place, and I need some quality "me time" to recover afterwards. Therefore, I don't do it on most days. I don't shop around for those new opportunities. I invite guests/host at home only infrequently. And it's fine.
I work in a communication-heavy technical role. I'm good at moderating, mediating, coaching. I'm persuasive when I need to be, and I have a knack for adapting to the people I'm talking to. I enjoy the work. But it's definitely work, there's a significant energy expenditure involved.
Like you, I prefer to maintain fewer, deeper friend relationships as a result. Not having to be in touch is how I relax and unwind. I just don't scale to keep up with a large number of social obligations. There's so much other stuff to get done!
That said: I truly appreciate getting invited to things by the stubborn folks who try. I feel bad when I decline. Some time I will take you up on it, and I promise I'll have a fantastic time.
My partner of 9 years is a person I can hang out with for any length of time without strain or requiring recovery time afterwards, so that works smoothly.
Backstory: I'm a late-diagnosed Aspie, 56 in a couple of weeks, only diagnosed in my mid 40's. Had a small number of long-term relationships, and had trouble understanding why the earlier ones ended, until I was diagnosed. Nerdy as a kid, with few friends. Avid D&D player until my early 20's (same set of low maintenance friends, with a well understood social contract). Computer geek; SciFi nerd; etc.
I am the architypical introvert - uncomfortable in large social gatherings. I went for nearly 10 years without anyone other than my partner that I could call a friend, but was "mostly happy with my own company". Most "friends" were partners of my partner's frienship circle.
About 5 years ago, I started up a makerspace, and kind of "instantly" gained a friendship circle in a town where I basically knew nobody, and that was "fine" but occasionally tiring, until this summer when I basically burnt out and quit. I still have some of the friends, but I'm seeing far less of them now we have no common interest in the makerspace. I'm still trying to work out what my "next big thing" will be. At least I now know how to go about starting whatever it will be up...
But I think the main issue is that I find the social aspect really tiring (I think it's masking fatigue). I just can't handle large amounts of the social stuff. Fortunately, my current partner of about 15 years is very supportive and understanding, and decidedly not introverted.
First, introversion is how you get energy, not directly how you behave. Ideally, people don't really know if you're intra- or extra- versed because you engage with them well. Being introverted is not a license to ignore social connections or be terrible at dealing with people.
Second, even if introversion and extraversion affect your outward behavior (eg: how frequently you want to go to the bar) - that's just one factor. For example, I am an introvert and my natural inclination to go to the bar is low. However, I also wanted to meet someone and get married, and if a woman proposed we get drinks at a bar, ok no problem.
At the end of the day "introversion" does not define your entire being, it's an energy preference akin to "I feel better when I eat the Mediterranean diet." It doesn't negate your desire for sex, children, partnership, etc. and unless you have other issues you can navigate it.
> The curious question is, if the man isn’t doing what you’re supposed to be doing to find a partner, like mingling with more people, how did they end up with their current (and only) partner in the first place? They had to do at least some socializing to get a date.
The answer to the question is right there: in high school and college, you're effectively forced to socialize to at least some degree; you're a captive in the education system, and unless you suffer from tremendous anxiety or are wildly unpleasant to be around, you'll spend a large percentage of your time socializing with other people.
(There's also the other obvious answer: a lot of introverts socialize a lot online, and many of them meet their partners the same way. I'm sure at least some of you have been to a wedding where the married couple met over WoW.)
Are you sure we are introverts and not just people lacking enough IRL social outlets, or people suffering from social anxieties. Why would an introvert go online to socialize with complete strangers?
I think - and again, my experience, just another anecdote to throw in the bucket - that introverts like communicating online because we don't run out of gas as quickly, because there is less focus on immediate responses. We can step back, we can take a few minutes - or days! - to think before we reply. If we want to, we can be much more in-depth, take the time to analyze our own feelings and those of the others in the conversation.
Online, there's no rush to do your part in a conversation while a loud bar is overwhelming your ability to even hear the other party.
Having said that, I'm not so introverted that I don't need face-to-face time with friends. My D&D group hasn't met since August, and one of the players can't make it to a party we're hosting this weekend, and it bums me the fuck out!
edit: I just noticed you said "complete strangers". This isn't socializing for me; my online socializing is in Slack & Discord, with people I've known for years & decades - some of whom I first met online, some of whom I first met in real life, some of whom I met online first and then in real life (and attended the wedding of!), and some of whom I've never met IRL and may never meet.
If anything, I've had substantially more partners than average when I was younger because online you can do that easily with just trying over and over again and rejection didn't affect me online, and the contact didn't exhaust me because it was superficial until I got a connection with someone.
His idea that being an introvert implies lacking opportunities and inherently makes someone more likely to be loyal is based on a lot of stereotyping of what being an introvert means.
If find dating situations easy. They can be as low key as you want them, and they are formulaic, and I a long time ago figured out a "formula" that worked. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be genuine, but I know my strengths, and I learnt to understand social queues well enough to turn that into a conversation topic, and talking about those observations and demonstrating you've listened to past partners is gold dust.
But I'd also find them draining, and would go home wired and take hours to relax afterwards. The main thing making me seek and prefer stable relationships isn't that I can't easily find people because I'm an introvert, because I can, but because I have more than enough experience to know what I like and have found it.
Alas, since I haven't actually written it yet, and it wouldn't fit in the margins, I'll just seethe in relative silence.
For me, having a small social circle is just a matter of preference. I don’t know why. I don’t feel uncomfortable in (most) social situations and I have a lot of acquaintances that I’m friendly with. Sometimes I’ll hang out. Most of the times I just don’t want to.
Most of the socialising I do nowadays has a “purpose”. Beers after work, play dates with other parents, tech meetups and so on. If it’s just a random hang out session, I’m sorry but I’d rather hang out with my wife and kids.
Now, taking toddler to $event with lots of other families/children, well that's work.
So much so that I think I might be one and done. The idea of losing more personal time makes me beyond depressed.
That's not to say that I don't love the child and that I haven't adjusted to looking after them, nor that I don't enjoy spending time with them, however it's affected my happiness in a way that doesn't add up.
For further context, it's not that I don't enjoy socialising. I think it's great, however I also absolutely must have my alone time as a no. 1 priority. While I have fun socialising, it's also something I could literally do without.
May be a muscle you train, so to speak.
The only thing that's really helped (at least in the early stages) is sleeping in shifts + biphasic sleeping. That provides me with ample time to do my own projects, assuming that the baby hasn't regressed for that day and doesn't consume all that time (which if I'm being very fair, has been a bit of an angel.)
Yours is immobile for a while still, try to enjoy that while you can.
Probably gets easier when they are in school. But you'll be at work then.
My oldest is 5, and we're just now reaching the point where he's wanting to stay up later into our adult time, but in my experience there are a lot of comfortable years that were better than the immobile stage.
But after the first 6 months or so there does gradually become those slots where you can pick up a project without neglecting the important people in your life.
And, if you’re lucky, one day your kids join in your projects and solder on next to you in companionable silence :)
I have found that having too much free time as a result of having few if any social obligations lets you invest time in more frivolous things. Do that long enough and you begin to loose focus on important tasks or goals allowing you to leave things unfinished because "there's plenty of time in the future" but that future never comes.
As a fellow introverted Dad-to-be (any day now!), I'm not that concerned about the loss of personal time. I'm more worried about whether I make a good role model and whether I'm able to keep up enough social obligations with other parents to give my kid a community to source friends from.
I guess I'll have to buckle up :-)
Of course, this also depends on your "village" and what kind of support you're getting from others.
But best of luck!
It might sound odd, but I'm trying to more or less think of it as making having a baby my new "hobby"/personal goal. I'm sure it's tiring, tedious and often uncomfortable, but it's also all novel and once-in-a-lifetime, is definitely purposeful, and a lot of other qualities I like to assign what I do in my private life anyway. Hopefully that way I won't feel like one comes at the expense of the other. What's raising a new human if not the ultimate DIY hack?
I've heard from other young parents around us that what makes the psychological difference is that having a baby is not something you can stop or return from, and that's what can make the low hours feel much harder. We'll see - others got through it!
Which I know sounds like a fun challenge on paper, but there's a reason most people fail special forces tests. So ultimately it's about finding a counter-balance to that.
What I've found at least, is that the "hacky" side of raising a newborn is trying to find ways to optimise your life in order to reclaim your old life back. In particular, trying to figure out how to get enough sleep whilst still maintaining the house etc.
Of course, these are all just words at this point to you. When you're thrust into it, you'll quickly adapt and figure out a way-of-life that works for you. But yeah, would be interested to hear back from your experience, I too started out quite optimistic about the whole experience, which then all went out the window when actually faced with the challenge.
yeah, not everyone has that. see: us. No free time. Weekends are more exhausting than weekdays.
Also, things got noticeably harder after the 18th-20th month or so, when he went from 3 naps a day to 1, and when he started being VERY mobile and thus FAR more dangerous to himself. It didn't help that I was sick the entire month of November last year (to the point of hospitalization for part of it). Her parents live 1.5 hours away and keep making excuses about visiting; my mom died in 2020 and my dad and sister moved to Floriduh just when he was born because that was already the plan before he showed up...
In my experience each time it has gotten easier as the baby gets older. The first two months are the hardest, with the baby needing near-constant attention. As they get older the burden is lower and you get more time back, though it never goes back to pre-parenthood levels.
Strict bedtimes have been a key thing for my sanity: you can't pull this off now, obviously, but by the time our kids were about 6 months old we had them on a 7pm bedtime routine that we're only just now having to vary for our nearly-5-yo. That buys back most of the evening time for adult time, which has been absolutely essential.
Six months was the threshold for me with each child where I felt like we finally were stable again and it was worth even thinking about the future.
My kid (the one and only, since he wasn't even supposed to be possible, and since we're not... doing the things that would result in more pregnancies) slept through the night after 4 months.
The really difficult part, subjectively, seemed to emerge after 20 months when he went from 3 naps a day to 1, and when he started being very mobile, putting random things in his mouth, jumping (and potentially falling), etc. etc. etc., all of which demanded 100% attention. He's now 28 months and even though he's in daycare and adjusted well to it, I'm exhausted every day after he is finally put to bed around 8. I am constantly stressed out because I haven't yet found a balance between work, him, and self-care things like an exercise/meditation/outdoor-walk schedule; structural things. Trying to set that up now actually. The lack of intimacy is a level of problem that I can't even figure out how to express though
We are definitely a one and done, although the 2+ parents say that eventually they play with each other and free you up a bit (or fight... lol)
I know it has made her feel bad sometimes, but I'm convinced it minimizes the damage. As parents, we can't avoid causing some emotional damage, but hopefully we can minimize it and make it a constructive learning experience.
I hope that my explicit messages teach her that sometimes Dad needs to be alone and sometimes she has to be lonely and entertain herself. Hard lessons, but lessons that need to be learned one way or another. Who knows what the chaotic passive aggressive signals my younger self used to send would have taught her.
Most adults I meet are quite boring. Children don't bore me. We have a lot to talk about, they don't know much of anything about the world.
If you learn to understand a toddlers needs they won't cry all that often.
A child resting their head on my chest doesn't hurt like a adult head does. I don't mind them being close to me they don't take up much room.
Children respect consistently enforced boundaries better than adults. Mainly beacuse its hard to punish other adults when they over step them.
Children are innocent, if they have ulterior motives they are easy to figure out. Adults aren't innocent and you have to keep your guard up when dealing with them.
I think a lot depends on how supportive your partner and care network can be, and your financial circumstances.
Personally I struggled a lot, we live away from family and my partner also works. In the end I had to accept that you only really have their adoration and attention for a limited amount of time, I put most of my projects and hobbies on hold, scaled back work a bit, gave them all the attention I could and made the most of whatever downtime available to maintain sanity. A lot of things just had to give.
My oldest is now 9 and I'm starting to see how quickly the dynamic changes, like you said about not being toddlers for long. She might already be happy to read books and play computer games by herself all day, and I sometimes need to seek out conversations to maintain a connection with her. My friends with teenagers say that they almost never see them.
I really had no idea how difficult it would be for me as an introvert / spectrum adjacent. I was never particularly reflective or insightful about my own needs for space, time and agency because these things had never been in short supply in my life before. I thought I had an idea of what it would be like - but I was a long way off. Partly I think this is because expectations of fathers today are very different to what I grew up with and what was modelled by my dad & stepdad.
On a day-to-day basis the "responsibility" side feels a lot like running a small business with your partner that provides childcare, education, housing, cleaning services, meals, entertainment etc. Your time is not your own, any commitment you make tends to be binding on your partner as well (because you are committing them to keeping "the business" running during that time) and vice-versa.
My partner is the kind of person who lives by what is filled in in the calendar, to her the "blank spaces" are waste, she will try to fill every day with appointments and commitments. For me, the "filled in" slots in my calendar are only for things I can't avoid and my life happens in the "blank spaces". That's been the biggest source of conflict in our relationship and it's required a lot of negotiation and adjustment for both of us. It surprised both of us how incompatible we were in this aspect because our time never came under such pressure before kids.
Why did we keep having more? There's a weird amnesia that can happen a couple of years after you have a baby, where if things are going ok, you sort of mentally blank out the difficulties...
I think some degree of struggle is part of the whole thing for almost everyone, for me there was just a lot of psychological adjustment that needed to happen to be a functional parent. Now I find it hard to even imagine "me without kids at this age" anymore. My life isn't what I expected it would be - it's more complicated - but I regret nothing. I feel really grateful the kids are part of my life.
Another question I have (if you have the time) is did things become more difficult the more children you have, and how so? Also, did they get more difficult as time went along, or easier? Or is it just somehow a different kind of difficulty?
I think that's my hesitation of having more than one child (I only have a 1 and a half month old, so still very early days) is that if I have a 2nd child 2 years from now based on the idea that it's easy because they're young, but when they're older might be a much larger commitment than I can imagine (driving them places, helping with homework etc.)
What I did feel was that 2+ was more "strain" - any existing relationship problems or issues (and esp. around time...) were exacerbated. If you are feeling e.g. time stress with 1 you will probably feel more with 2 and so on. For me it is something I still have to keep communicating / negotiating / working on.
Re: commitment - there's only so much attention / parental investment you will be able to give. Each child will almost certainly get less of it individually if you have more kids, whether that is play, homework help, money, driving around, or just plain paying attention to them. I tried to give as much as I was able to one and had to divide it up when we had more.
Eldest was not super pleased to have siblings / have to share parents so lots of adjustment required there. They're all obsessed with "fairness" and closely monitor everything to make sure they are "getting their share" :). There is a whole set of extra dynamics to manage.
I do think it's gotten easier (for now). For me personally the toddler years have been the most difficult, an absolutely burning need for attention, SO many questions, absolutely no boundaries. School age and up has been easier for me (so far..). Baby times are just a haze now.
The tradeoff for less parent availability is that they get to learn different things from each other. It drives me crazy when they squabble but it's learning in action, and when they get along it's pure magic. I think our family could have been "complete" with one. The increased chaos and emergent behaviours of N is great too, just different.
Thanks for the questions, I got a lot out of taking time to reflect on them.
I can only imagine what your life is like, however in a weird way, what you're doing seems incredibly brave/courageous to me. Like you've entered some kind of frontier that few would dare enter in modern 2023.
Which is funny, because a few generations back having 3 kids would have been considered average, if not underwhelming compared to the average.
I wish you all the best. From one father to another.
For context, I'm 34.
Author should figure out if it is (sounds like it) - therapy can help
If they are running clubs and meeting people maybe the introversion or insecurities have subsided just enough to create an opening
Take issue with the nonsense about not cheating because of lack of opportunity bit though :( People also don’t cheat because they love their spouses and would decline opportunities anyhow!
Might as well just be someone with social anxiety. Many people like that in tech.
The problem with introverts is that we by definition don't stand out. When you notice us, it's because we're being uncharacteristically social, so you assume we're just like you. When we're in our comfort zone, you won't see us at all and so you once again won't have any evidence that there are actually people out there who prefer to be alone.
One key to discovering introverts is to not assume that "introverted" means "[not] smooth with people in all sorts of contexts". At work I participate more than most of my teammates, and I'm really good at understanding people and helping build consensus, but it takes a lot out of me. If you just knew me from work you might not realize it, but by the end of the day I don't want to spend any time with anyone other than my wife.
I had to read that a few times because I was wondering maybe there's a thing called "single husband" , but boy it's just the other usage of the word "single". English is a funny language :)
Well, you're statistically less likely to meet the introverted ones :)