Hacker News Reader

Comment by jjcm | Hacker News Reader

The Presidential Innovation Fellow is the highest level role they're offering as part of this. For this, the requirements are "mid-senior/executive career professional experience in a subject matter expertise" with "experience collaborating with and leading cross-functional teams".

The requirements feel analogous to a staff/principal level role in the software industry, so just for comparison here's the compensation for these roles across the giants:

Microsoft (level 66): $390,707

Amazon (L7): $547,490

Facebook (E6): $610,713

Apple (ICT5): $497,780

Google (L6): $506,141

US Gov: $155,700 to start, with a max of $183,500 after 18 years (step increases are limited on a time basis)

The US government is trying to leverage AI by paying 30.4% the wage of the leaders in private industry. I just don't see how they're going to be effective in doing this.

View on HN

I assume they're targeting people who aren't competitive candidates for big high paying companies. There's plenty of super mediocre to bad developers out there (myself included) that would never stand a chance applying there. I've been developing software for a decade and the most I've ever made is $110k, and that was in high cost of living areas like Denver and Seattle.

The pay cap is set in law, but you need people sufficiently invested in the mission to forgo a higher possible salary, which isn't possible for everyone (especially folks who might have to support their parents).

It's possible for anyone who can expect to make money from speculation or bribes due to steering policy in a certain direction.

Actually quite the opposite: they're specifically targeting people with FAANG and/or Ivy League pedigrees.

The government can't afford these people straight up, so they slap "Presidential" or "White House" on a fellowship to make it more attractive.

And it is; a Presidential or White House fellowship is as much a resume maker as working at a FAANG or an Ivy League degree.

How come? I would value a Stanford degree and working at Google on a resume. I wouldn’t know what to think about The White House or Air Force (like many posting on their site) on a resume.

It's specifically the Presidential or White House [0] fellowships that are prestigious, although if you have any job in the White House that's just as well.

What value an employer would derive from seeing that on someone's resume is probably the same as with Google or Stanford: it shows they got in, with the known/assumed quality of the institution vouching for their capability.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Fellows

US gov hiring is absolutely broken. I applied for a role I'm absolutely qualified for (even referred to apply for it by someone on the team based on my resume and experience) and was rejected out of hand (twice, after an appeal too) without consideration. I'm actually willing to take a pay cut to serve my country, and I think actually you'll find senior engineers and business leaders willing to do this too, but if red tape or incompetent HR contractors get in the way, you'll lose that talent too.

Two things:

- your 18 year figure is inaccurate, I know people who have made it to the top of the pay scale in half that time

- GS-15 step 10 is not the cap for a role like this one. this is scientific/technical expertise, which is 20% higher ($220,200). Not to mention awards.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/senior-executive-s...

The Executive Schedule is available for 18F as well as other agencies, but my understanding is that it is not true for this. Screenshot from the job page itself showing that this is a GS job capped at the GS-15 Step 10: https://image.non.io/6dbd428b-a356-4ec9-85a8-f1e84b4f3880.we...

Yeah but your country needs you, and that’s actually pretty good pay. I think tech would be a little bit broader if more people considered serving for a year or two.

How old are you? Major consensus among youngsters is that there is no such thing as "serving your country".

Who says you can get more done for the country in this role than you could working in a research lab at a tech company? Certainly US advances at companies do A LOT for the country and it's HARD to get anything done in the government. So, for the top AI talent this appears to target, this is the opportunity to get paid way less to accomplish less..... Why would anyone do that?

Countries are like a streaming service. Shop around to see which you like most and subscribe to it in the form of paying taxes. If a country has brain drain then that’s their fault for being incapable of providing a good life to their citizens and inherently should not exist as it means they’re doing their citizens a disservice by providing a worse quality of life.

Why did you assume that everyone is motivated by money? After $100k, what difference does it make for one's happiness?

Personally, I wouldn't want such a shallow individual working in my government.

> After $100k, what difference does it make for one's happiness?

Probably a lot. Can't raise a family in the Silicon Valley on that which makes people unhappy.

This is far more of a cut than say at CZI.

That's something someone would say that has never made 500k before :)

Yeah, you don't have to spend it. Save it and retire early. Donate it all to a charity you believe in. Send your kids to the best school. Buy a nice home. Travel the world. The high salary only allows more options, it doesn't close any doors.

(Just be careful about "getting used to it" and ending up having to change your lifestyle if market conditions change.)

Depends on where they're living, I guess. But in DC, additional income above $100k would make a huge difference in quality of life.

A lot, actually. In a country like USA, you can get slapped with $100k worth of medical bills, and keep fighting them for years.

If you said $100k and a safety net (that actually works), I would agree with you.

The cost of living varies widely in different areas. In many parts of the United States, 100k is a very low salary, due to extremely high living costs.

For example, the government classifies a family of four with an income of $149,100 as "low income" in San Francisco, and thus eligible for government welfare benefits.[1]

The median house price in San Francisco is currently $1.3 million.[2]

An average 776 square foot apartment (which is rather small for a family of four) rents for $3,336 a month.[3]

[1] https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-f...

[2] https://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco/housing-m...

[3] https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/sa...

> After 100k, what difference does it make for one's happiness?

Fairly significant depending on the location. Keep in mind that for Washington DC, the average cost of living required income is 91,388 for a family of four[0], or 76,894 after taxes.

This role pays $105k after taxes. One way to think about this is this means you have $2.3k per month in discretionary funds, versus 16.5k per month of discretionary funds for a big 5 job.

If you're considering retirement, you'll achieve your savings goals 7 times faster with big tech. That's a big difference in happiness.

If you're considering education for your children, you can afford private school or an ivy league education with big tech. With the government role you can't.

Certainly there are a select few who will look at this and be motivated to serve their country, but more and more what we're seeing is that patriotism is at a record low[1]. If we're looking to attract the best of the best, we're culling the selection pool greatly by underpaying significantly. Relying on patriotism and asceticism is a hard thing to bet on.

[0] https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/11001 [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/394202/record-low-extremely-pro...

Where do you live that you think this comment is remotely correct? Try living comfortably in DC on $100k.

100k is very little.. I’d want my government workers to have enough disposable income to frequently travel abroad and experience different ways of life.

>I just don't see how they're going to be effective in doing this.

Why not?

That fellowship is extraordinarily competitive and is filled with former FAANG folks.

if the position was high-status enough they might be able to hire someone post-economic

Reply on news.ycombinator.com