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Comment by godelski | Hacker News Reader

Some of the jobs go up to $180k/yr. That's not too bad considering it doesn't look like it requires DC location. But others like the grad assistant for $22/hr is laughable.

Still, I agree there's a problem with salaries not being competitive. I've interned at DOE labs before and lots of people don't stay for long.

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I mean the grad assistant is basically a post-doc position isn't it? Considering the stability and perks from a government job, I think that is not too far from market rate.

But go up and those 180k jobs would be easily 300-400K in the industry. I doubt anyone who can do that work would be interested in a measly 180K. Unless it comes with a visa...

Almost all those 300K+ industry jobs are willing to sponsor visas.

Most of these jobs on the other hand seem to be US citizens only. Some require a security clearance which a lot of AI experts would probably rather NOT have.

"a measly 180k" is a wild statement on an absolute scale, but i do see what you're saying relatively.

The sentiment today is the idea of the post doctoral position is also exploitation. Paying PhDs to do cutting edge work for $50k a year is a joke. In n out managers probably get more than that now.

As in it's a joke if they accept it?

I think you'd be surprised. Plenty of people are interested in going into public service and especially policy related work. The high industry salaries can actually be a positive here, they allow workers to be FIRE'd in a decade or less. At that point they can switch to a lower stress/higher impact gov job and the salary being lower isn't a huge problem.

Statistically, this doesn't really happen though. The % of people who make enough to adopt a realistic FIRE strategy are not going into govt service in large numbers, not by a long shot. Even the more traditional retiring early crowd isn't going into public service

The govt has record vacancy at the local, state, and federal levels for jobs[0][1][2]

Even taking steps to lower barriers to entry, they can't fill them.

[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/christianweller/2023/02/09/amid...

[1]: https://www.axios.com/2022/07/11/government-jobs-pandemic-re...

[2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20231002185558/https://www.nytim...

I think the key here is that the job has to be intriguing enough. Working on shaping US AI policy is something that many people would sacrifice quite a bit to do. Pushing paper not so much. Most fed jobs are on the paper pushing side of things, which also makes the actually interesting jobs harder to fill due to the reputation for bureaucracy. Probably why they made this fancy recruiting site.

You won't be able to FIRE on $180k for 10 years (or less), not even close.

The thing about FIRE is you actually need way more money than regular retirement, because you have to plan for a 40+year retirement instead of a 15-20 year one. On top of that you need a higher margin to account for uncertainty.

HDThoreaun is saying that it's possible to work in the private sector for a decade and save/invest enough to FIRE, especially if in your "retirement" you're also pulling in $180k/y and getting government benefits.

There's "barista FIRE" (save enough and then go work as a barista, typically at starbucks because they had unusually good benefits, but I don't know if all that has changed after the unionization), but honestly working for the government seems like it could be even lower-stress than being a barista.

I don't think post docs get 300k-400k outside of major tech hubs. 180k is on the higher end of the software pay scale across most the USA.

Which generally aren't hired by the government (unfortunately).

Wage rates should be higher.

> I mean the grad assistant is basically a post-doc position isn't it? Considering the stability and perks from a government job, I think that is not too far from market rate.

At a DOE lab in my second year of PhD I was getting ~$50/hr. When I've interned at other places I've gotten to about $60/hr. That's still below the typical rate of $80-$100/hr for a new grad (we're just talking base salary, no comp or bonuses). Definitely not market rate.

For the $180k, that's a bit tougher. Since this is all cash. I'm not aware of anyone who pays $300k all cash to newly minted PhDs except for Netflix. Otherwise that number is competitive with typical base salaries. But like you say, with equity that number doubles and so isn't competitive that way. There are benefits to a gov job (way more relaxed) but you're turning down a lot of money, that's for sure. And of course, the salaries are only competitive for newly minted PhDS, not for anyone that's been in the field post PhD for 5+ years.

$180k/yr isn't bad in the context of Sr SWE in medium-cost-of-living areas. But in the context of ML/AI, it's pretty rotten no matter where. Hard to get the right people if that's the top.

"Up to" $180k for expertise in a field that is as technical and in as much demand as AI is low. For experts in AI, I wouldn't be surprised if their total comp in larger tech companies is around $500k-$1M.

You can expect to find some experts with a stronger sense of civic duty willing to take a pay cut to work for the government, but when you're talking about multiple multiples of your salary, you're going to be left with people who are not top talent or those who are already so wealthy from other jobs that they're willing to work for much less.

Not to mention, that 180K is either barely more (on the lower end) or less than a senior web developer makes at a good sized company. Thats just how out of sync government salaries are

Usually too, the top end of the salary is never going to be offered for a govt job, because they need to be able to give you raises at your level before your next promotion. There's lots of hoops that you end up going through with gov jobs that don't exist in private industry, like pay band caps and promotion schedules that are most often seniority based rather than merit based.

It is stable, and the retirement benefits are really great. The healthcare used to be spectacular but for newer hires the healthcare benefits are more in line with what you get at a private company with good benefits that isn't a FAANG. IE, you'll still have to contribute, the government doesn't pay 100% cost of insurance anymore.

source: I used to work for the government, and know many government workers via my past work, friends, and family at the state and federal level

Having previously been an AI scientist hiring manager, that's around the starting salary for an AI PhD fresh graduate in the USA, which does not include equity.

Where exactly are you seeing that $180K remote job? When I specify 'remote' on that site only 4 jobs come up. One of them is data scientist, another is IT Specialist and the other two seem administrative. The IT Specialist job is listed at $99K while the other three are around $70K/year.

They have "locations" but there are >200 of them when you just click on the job. I didn't look too closely though

That’s not going to get good people unless they’re doing it to help.

With no intention to start a flame war: I don't see a future where affording a government the capability of SOTA AI is helping.

Fair point, just saying they definitely won’t get people who can help with or understand SOTA at these prices unless they’re basically volunteering.

Some say wage suppression is one way the much better paid bureaucratic class can keep their well educated potential replacements where they are, far away.

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